vowlesy Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 I've used a stock TM P90 and it wasnt really anything special range wise and our teams ICS armalites outranged it. I'm sure they have the potential, but just with a element h-nub and a systema hop rubber our ICS armalites have insane range. However i'm sure with the same a P90 could do better. Although when we played with one guy with a TM P90, used to be a regular at my site, he always complained about its range, perhaps he had developed some problems with his hop up as it was quite old, its just because of that back when i started airsoft i've always had in my mind that the range is'nt very good on P90s. I did say that was just from personal experience below it anyhow. And new G&G M4s have the rotary hop, as do the new TM blowback M4s aswell as the new CA X series and the all the ICS armalites. Thats quite a few imo and i predict to seen most new M4 designs have it aswell as it is just overall a better design. Link to post Share on other sites
Andyroo__ Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 CA CQB. Suprises everybody. It's perhaps a little hot for proper, proper CQB, but I love it. I use it in the woods and I outrange a lot of other weapons that, based purely on looks, you'd think would hit me. I average 350 fps with mine. Link to post Share on other sites
evansy Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 As a bit of an Armalite fan I thort I'd throw my opinions into the ring for a "CQB but can do woodland variant". As you can see (if you clicked the link) I have a CQB-R and it's more than happy to trade rounds at woodland distances however you do loose usable range due to the shorter barrel because it tends to loose accuracy at max range (which is to be expected really) but all that means is you need to get a little closer . It does however excel in CQB as you don't have that long barrel to catch on things and give away the surprise element as you come around a corner because of the 6 inches of barrel appearing before you do (if you were using a standard M4) As for which make of M4 to get I'd personally go with G&P with a new hop unit fitted or possibly King Arms but that is purely because I'm not a fan of the ICS's proprietary parts as it means if something does ever break (gearbox for example) all you can fit is the same parts that have previously broken. There are no upgraded after market parts. Now I know all the ICS fans will jump in here saying "well they've not broken yet" I'd just like to say that it could break and if it did I'd like the option to upgrade to something better than stock. and for the "all V2 boxes break" crowd I'd just like to say I've been running one of my M4's at 18rps @350fps for over 5 years of regular skirmishing without a problem and I'd say that's pretty good going. I wouldn't recommend an MP5K for a woodland gun unless it was as a backup (i.e. your spare in the car) while it can trade rounds it has a 5" barrel and no stock so aiming is a general direction kind of thing and you'll end up walking your rounds onto the target. If you must get an MP5K for CQB get a PDW so you have the option of a stock if you ever use it for woodland. It makes a whole world of difference as you can then get down onto the sights properly. Other guns to consider that I've found work well in both environments would be a full size MP5 A series, AKS74U, AK Spetsnaz and P90 (but the mags are a pain). There are probably more but they're just the guns I've used. Link to post Share on other sites
Punkypink Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Or, get a MP5K properly zeroed to an optic and train to fire with a steady arm. Rick, u're so thin u'll never be able to hit anything with a stockless gun without walking your shots onto it Link to post Share on other sites
FireKnife Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 P90. Outranges most 350fps longer barreled and better made AEG's That is all. 'FireKnife' Link to post Share on other sites
Stealthbomber Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 ...but that is purely because I'm not a fan of the ICS's proprietary parts as it means if something does ever break (gearbox for example) all you can fit is the same parts that have previously broken. There are no upgraded after market parts. FWIW, the only bits of my ICS M4 that're still made by ICS are the upper and lower gearbox shell, upper and lower receiver and hop-up housing. Oh, and the anti reversal catch. You can chuck any gears, motor and piston in there so there's not really any restriction on upgrading. At least ICS are decent enough to supply replacement gearbox shells so, if your gun does succumb to a cracked front end so you can repair your gun just as easily as any "normal" V2. I guess there isn't any upgraded gearbox shell available but I think it's stronger than a normal V2 gearbox to begin with and, besides, I'm not really sure how much stronger upgraded gearboxes actually are. S'funny, when the ICS M4 first came out there was a lot of rumour and speculation about how it was incompatible with, well, almost everything. As it turns out there are actually very few incompatibilities and those that do exist can be overcome easily. Link to post Share on other sites
evansy Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Or, get a MP5K properly zeroed to an optic and train to fire with a steady arm. Rick, u're so thin u'll never be able to hit anything with a stockless gun without walking your shots onto it For CQB I'll happily use a stockless K because I tend to not stay still and to get into smaller spaces where I need the gun close up I'm also confident enough in my shooting to not need sights to be effective at usual CQB ranges but for woodland where I do need to take longer ranged aimed shots I'll go for a stocked weapon every time. I'm not saying that the K is a bad gun in fact when it's used where it's designed for its a great gun but for woodland it's less than ideal. FWIW, the only bits of my ICS M4 that're still made by ICS are the upper and lower gearbox shell, upper and lower receiver and hop-up housing. Oh, and the anti reversal catch. And if those parts failed me I wouldnt be confident in fitting the same parts again as there's always the chance it could fail again. But like I said thats just my personal opinion on it. I'm not really sure how much stronger upgraded gearboxes actually are. CNC'd ones are alot stronger. Although for the price you kinda expect it. S'funny, when the ICS M4 first came out there was a lot of rumour and speculation about how it was incompatible with, well, almost everything. As it turns out there are actually very few incompatibilities and those that do exist can be overcome easily. The parts that are still incompatible are things like after market outer barrels and stocks which while they can be modded to fit its all extra time, effort and sometimes money compared to something which follows the TM design which is something which puts me off as I'm one of those people who likes to make my guns just a little different. Link to post Share on other sites
Stealthbomber Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 And if those parts failed me I wouldnt be confident in fitting the same parts again as there's always the chance it could fail again. But like I said thats just my personal opinion on it. You drive a car that you expect to never have to replace or live in a house guaranteed never to fall down? Sure, I agree with your philosophy. That's why I declined G&Gs kind offer to supply me with a fourth replacement piston for my L85. The point is, however, that nothing lasts forever and, given that I've had my ICS M4 since about 2005 without a breakage, the quality of any replacement ICS part I am forced to fit in future would be perfectly acceptable. The parts that are still incompatible are things like after market outer barrels and stocks which while they can be modded to fit its all extra time, effort and sometimes money compared to something which follows the TM design which is something which puts me off as I'm one of those people who likes to make my guns just a little different. Hehe. That's exactly the sort of nonsense I was referring to. Belladonna used to spout that rubbish all the time too. As I already said, my gun has aftermarket stock, stock-tube, outer barrel and RIS. The ICS M4 will accept as much aftermarket junk as any other gun. Link to post Share on other sites
Abelius Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 The ICS armalites are like light years ahead from other armalites. I can't see the front of the gearbox cracking anytime soon, it's so much beefier than any replacement V2 gearboxes for instance (non-CNC). I almost am sorry that my current armalites are of the traditional flawed type, as I know the ICS one would have given me so much less headache. Link to post Share on other sites
Brick Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 [snip] I've had my ICS M4 since about 2005 without a breakage, the quality of any replacement ICS part I am forced to fit in future would be perfectly acceptable. [snip] My P90 was bought 2nd hand and was about 2 years old when I started playing, that was 7 years ago by the way and the only mod that P90 has had was the grip (broke my wrist and the grip position on the P90 became uncomfortable) being changed for an M4 style grip. the gun is stock and about 9 years old, most of my mags are the same age and also still feed flawlessly (including the single hi-cap) and there is also a 150rnd midcap available that I am told is reliable. FPS is around the 280 mark and I find the range is easily comparable to other AEG's that shoot 40+ fps higher. Link to post Share on other sites
evansy Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 The parts that are still incompatible are things like after market outer barrels and stocks which while they can be modded to fit its all extra time, effort and sometimes money compared to something which follows the TM design which is something which puts me off as I'm one of those people who likes to make my guns just a little different. That's exactly the sort of nonsense I was referring to. Belladonna used to spout that rubbish all the time too. As I already said, my gun has aftermarket stock, stock-tube, outer barrel and RIS. The ICS M4 will accept as much aftermarket junk as any other gun. I'm taking that from talking to two ICS owners who have done some custom work on their M4's One converted his into one of those SF type affairs and said he had trouble fitting RIS and the stock & pistol grip both needed some filing to make them fit. The other wanted to turn his into a CQBR using some parts from one of his broken M4s and said he just couldnt get the outer barrel and free float ris on and the stock also needed work but he didnt want to have do that incase he ever put it back on a "standard" M4. I wouldnt mind trying an ICS M4 as they do have good performance but its just that chance that they wont take 100% of after market parts that puts me off because my next M4 is going to be customised with a new stock, front set and pistol grip. Link to post Share on other sites
greg Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 I knwo Greg you said don't bother trying to defend your M16s as we're entitled to our own opinions and oviousily things like the mag catch are matters of opinion, i much prefer M4 style mag releases for reloading, but with the crappy hop up, ICS and lots more now aswell have a round drum G36 one and they've modified the V2 gearbox with the split system and my friends but 110k rounds through his ICS M4 and only changed the hop rubber and it outranges most guns except M14s at our sites, G36 or P90 really dont compare in range or accuracy wise, but this is just personal experiance and preference and as you said we're entitled to our own opinion. You have valid points. I guess what I really meant was 'don't get upset by people who have opinions that differ from your own.' The ICS hop is indeed an improvement & not all V2's take a dive. But statistically, they are more likely to break than subsequent designs. I disagree with your opinion of the P90 or G36, 'not comparing'. I have many examples of this. I have a pair of 'electro-snipers' at over 400fps. They both get 12" groups at 60m which I consider good enough. One is an M14 with a 509mm barrel, the other is a P90 with a 300mm barrel! At lower fps, around 350, I have 247mm barreled 36's & 90's which compare favorably with any gun of similar power, in terms of range & accuracy. & sub 300fps, the Marui P90 & MP7 (less than 200mm barrel) chuck a bb straighter than anything with similar fps. The 'long v's short barrel' debate was fought years ago, 'bigger' really ain't 'better'. When everything else is kept equal, there is no 'range' or accuracy' advantage to a longer barrel. But, hey, you ARE entitled to your oppinion. Greg. Link to post Share on other sites
Shardik Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Well, ive had my ICS M4A1 since around 2005, and (touch wood) it has yet to either fail or break, and it is completley stock. And every aftermarket accessory has bolted right on without any issues. Link to post Share on other sites
Slim_Shady Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 I ran a G3SAS for ages in CQB and whilst it had moderate upgrades (328 fps, tight barrel to start with) the combination of a really consistent hop, compact size and ergonomics (for me the G3 series are the most comfortable AEG's) made it as good as anything out there and better than most. The range was exceptional, the accuracy was on bar with anything this side of an M14 plus the ROF was fine, and the reliability was 100%. With some more upgrades (Systema Hi RoF set-up) and an 11.1v lipo in a solid stock it was still a superb AEG without becoming unwieldy in tight confines - the main stumbling block for many people is that has no real-steel antecendant and doesn't particulary match some load-outs...but for sheer performance at range, or up close and personal it was awesome. Link to post Share on other sites
Stuey Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Can I ask a question? May help the OP you never know... Do ICS M4s have a one piece outer barrel? I heard they did and thus don't suffer from chronic Armalite barrel wobble. Stu. Link to post Share on other sites
vowlesy Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 You have valid points. I guess what I really meant was 'don't get upset by people who have opinions that differ from your own.' The ICS hop is indeed an improvement & not all V2's take a dive. But statistically, they are more likely to break than subsequent designs. I disagree with your opinion of the P90 or G36, 'not comparing'. I have many examples of this. I have a pair of 'electro-snipers' at over 400fps. They both get 12" groups at 60m which I consider good enough. One is an M14 with a 509mm barrel, the other is a P90 with a 300mm barrel! At lower fps, around 350, I have 247mm barreled 36's & 90's which compare favorably with any gun of similar power, in terms of range & accuracy. & sub 300fps, the Marui P90 & MP7 (less than 200mm barrel) chuck a bb straighter than anything with similar fps. The 'long v's short barrel' debate was fought years ago, 'bigger' really ain't 'better'. When everything else is kept equal, there is no 'range' or accuracy' advantage to a longer barrel. But, hey, you ARE entitled to your oppinion. Greg. With the G36 and P90 i did put in my experience, i've never shot any upgraded G36s or P90s, i mean i've only shot a few P90s which were all shooting sub 300 fps i believe and obviousily G36s are a very common sight but they've never really had too impressive a range, especially compared to the ICS armalites we're running atm. But, obviousily, i in no way am saying that they could very easily outrange our armalites, with equal upgrades, who knows which would perform better. Link to post Share on other sites
fenris357 Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 TM G3SAS TM MP5K TM P90 In that order all have great range and better relibilty (as long as you dont change any internals and in fairness there's no need too till something breaks) all take a tracer unit if you play in the dark they can be great all use small batteries which are cheap but get a couple (at least two ) too last the day. the g3 sas can take a slidy stock and thats about the only mod it'll need with the p90 take the red dot option accurize it and you'll have a tack driver. the MP5K has suprised more than one cocky m4 user thinking i cant hit him at long range. the look on their faces is usually worth the low price tag alone. big feature on these guns is they are light and compact enableing you to move and shoot with less strain than heavier metal guns would Link to post Share on other sites
Reppyboyo Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Ive also seen an MP5K get a strangly good range. Think it was a galaxy though. Link to post Share on other sites
apmaman Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 The ICS CXP Link to post Share on other sites
KMFDM Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 Couldn't really be bothered to read the entire thread, but what I would do if I would get the idea of buying an M4 useable in both woodland games and in CQB, is to buy either a PTW or an ICS M4 with both a M90 cylinder and a M120+ cylinder/upper mech box, in order to have a decent M4 for both purposes. Link to post Share on other sites
Steel Rayne Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 Galaxy mp5k suprised me... great gun, mp7s in general smell in cqb... too slow on the trigger mostly. Best ? TAR-21c its so short itsl ike a p90 on crack Link to post Share on other sites
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