WE vs WA

[-=OGGY=-]

As I said before, you can argue back and forth and there are pros and cons for each, but in the end, it all comes down to preference. Some (like me) think it is more realistic to have no brass cylinder because when the magazine is out and the bolt is locked back, the WA and the RS look almost identical.

The argument for the brass cylinder (as we have seen in this thread) is just as strong.

The steady stock preformance of the WE and the abundant upgradeablitity of the WA cancel each other out.

 

So I've said it once, I've said it twice, and I'll say it again; which system you choose depends on prefrence.

 

Untill that can be accepted, the argument will never end.

[Mega12]

you know what, lets have a POLL to see what the majority of the people think, instead of arguing we will let the numbers decide!

 

How's that sound?

[3vi1-D4n]

I also think the open vs closed bolt design is silly. I was pointing it out from a WE perspective to humor the fact that it's a characteristic WA fans feel is so important in their decision to choose between WA and WE.

 

For me, an avid GBB fan/collector/tuner, I was able to easily overlook the closed bolt WE design when it came down to function over form.

 

And anyway I dont know about you guys but when Im carrying around my GBB pistols or WE M4, I dont brandish it with the slide racked and locked back...and I dont keep my M4 bolt locked back either....

 

It is silly, but its a reason to justify their dislike. Like whoever said the WE's bolt carrier doesn't move. Yes hell it does.

 

Nitpicking, thats what people are doing. It will never end. Cool part is I own both so I get to sit on the line. I even own 2 BVs

 

---------------------------------

 

Who here has used AEGs in sand? Iron sand? Torrential Rain? Storm? At a game with all the above conditions, 80% of all the AEGs (45 people present) fried-shorted. Mags were soaked and hop ups were as effective as an overlubed oversized condom. Iron sand shorted some rifle's trigger mechs and welded onto the receivers. My P90 was one of the few guns still working at the end of the day and it had iron sand in the hicaps, mechboxes. I found small bits of trees in a few mechboxes.

 

The only reliable weapon I had functioning was a Marui Desert Eagle. It had sand in its barrel and mags, all wet etc, and still shot well.

 

Granted GBBRs would probably be in just the same state as the AEGs. But what I wanted to highlight. is no matter what condition you can justify (in)consistencies, and advantages I guarantee you I can counter that.

 

Oh yeah through that rain we still had a great day

[Kraut]

I think he means that from a neutral PoV, WA and WE fans arguing over the realism of the chamber under what circumstance is hilarious.

This.

 

I also think the open vs closed bolt design is silly. I was pointing it out from a WE perspective to humor the fact that it's a characteristic WA fans feel is so important in their decision to choose between WA and WE.

 

And this.

 

Ahh, so you were trolling. There was me thinking you were asking genuine questions.

 

Is it hilarious?

 

 

I was asking questions, and they were barely answered amongst all the open vs closed silliness. If you're that ate up about the "realism" of your M4, there's a laundry list of other things to nit pick that arn't "realistic".

 

I'm all for realism. I help run local milsim games. 95% of my gear and weapons accessories are the real deal. I carry real plates into battle and have been criticized for it. But part of the realism for me, is having an effective weapon platform. From the very few answers I managed to squeeze out of this thread, I've decided that neither are worth the performance and reliability loss just for a bit of kick and pop. Don't get me wrong, the GIM GBB rifles are fun as hell, but just not worth the money. I may pick up an AGM in the future, but only as something to mess around with, never a serious gaming gun.

 

When I have the money, I'll buy an upgraded Sun Project, after comparing it to both the WE and WA in the field. I'll leave this thread now, to the fanboys bickering back and forth over chambers.

 

[Kraut]

Who here has used AEGs in sand? Iron sand? Torrential Rain? Storm? At a game with all the above conditions, 80% of all the AEGs (45 people present) fried-shorted. Mags were soaked and hop ups were as effective as an overlubed oversized condom. Iron sand shorted some rifle's trigger mechs and welded onto the receivers. My P90 was one of the few guns still working at the end of the day and it had iron sand in the hicaps, mechboxes. I found small bits of trees in a few mechboxes.

Just to comment on this. At a recent Op, with torrential rain all night prior and all day of, a players highly upgraded WA went down before any (and they were few) AEGs shorted out. Mine blew a fuse. I removed it and continued for the rest of the day soaked to the bone just fine.

 

*Sorry for double post*

[Stealthbomber]

It is silly, but its a reason to justify their dislike. Like whoever said the WE's bolt carrier doesn't move. Yes hell it does.

 

Nitpicking, thats what people are doing. It will never end.

Absolutely.

 

Personally, my GBB rifle is only a curiosity so I welcome the fact that the WA design is more authentic.

 

The bit that bugs me is that the WE fanboys seem to come out with whatever suits them at the time.

"The cylinder looks like a bullet" gets used if they want to justify its presence.

"It doesn't matter anyway cos the bolt carrier is always forward" gets trotted out when excuse #1 fails.

 

Jeez guys, just chalk it up as a point for the WA system and move on.

 

Fact is that the WE is, apparently, in use by the US Army so that must be worth something.

 

As others have said, I guess it depends on the intended purpose of your gun.

If you plan on using it as an all-round primary you'll probably be more willing to accept a few compromises (unrealistic bolt carrier and lower recoil) if you think you're getting an OOTB skirmishable gun.

If you have other guns (AEGs?) that you can use when you want soul-less reliability then perhaps you'll cherish the authentic operation of the WA system more and swap to an AEG if it isn't working properly?

 

I was asking questions, and they were barely answered amongst all the open vs closed silliness. If you're that ate up about the "realism" of your M4, there's a laundry list of other things to nit pick that arn't "realistic".

Noooooo! Sorry!

 

I mistook one of VV10s posts for yours.

That was the only reason I thought there was trolling going on.

 

Regarding the whole "realism" thing, I think I've already said all I want to say.

I like the fact that a WA gun is built from parts that are almost identical (in design) to a real one.

 

I certainly don't worry about the whole "empty chamber" thing any more than I worry about it on any GBB pistol.

That is, not at all.

[Punkypink]

I was asking questions, and they were barely answered amongst all the open vs closed silliness. If you're that ate up about the "realism" of your M4, there's a laundry list of other things to nit pick that arn't "realistic".

Actually Kraut, the reason SB made the "so you were trolling" comment is because he'd mixed you up with ViciousV10s. He pointed out a few posts later that he'd mixed the 2 of you up.

[3vi1-D4n]

Personally, my GBB rifle is only a curiosity so I welcome the fact that the WA design is more authentic.

 

The bit that bugs me is that the WE fanboys seem to come out with whatever suits them at the time.

"The cylinder looks like a bullet" gets used if they want to justify its presence.

"It doesn't matter anyway cos the bolt carrier is always forward" gets trotted out when excuse #1 fails.

 

Jeez guys, just chalk it up as a point for the WA system and move on.

 

Fact is that the WE is, apparently, in use by the US Army so that must be worth something.

 

 

LOL yeah thats the silliest point to argue over.

 

Its like RAP4 players we have in my country...ooooh....they are used by LE/military for training....oooooo I want to get into that stuff...oooo...its real....

 

WE is less realistic than the WA. Bolt carrier, hammer, trigger, sears, and ability to check the chamber is clearly more realistic. Only thing realistic with the WE is cocking handle, pistol grip indent.

 

At the end I use my airsoft guns to shoot kiddies, I leave my 5.56mm at home. Only people who care are the overweight chairsofters and the geardos.

 

As for the performance wise of the weapons over the other, this is airsoft, things aren't designed to work outside, its all up to the user.

 

Like the M16S1 and the rubber chicken.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mega12]

I think we should close this thread, there are WA fanboys and there are WE fanboys.

 

Both rifles are good rifles, and the choice is up to the user.

 

Does he be a cheap *albatross* and get an AGM thinking it is a WOC, is he the economical person and chooses the WE, or is he want the best bang for his buck and gets the WOC, or is he an elitist that must have the most expensive toy out there and gets an inko.

 

It is up to the users, all of those rifles are good rifles and good choices depending on what you want.

 

So let's not ###### on each other anymore, seriously guys.

[renegadecow]

2) Mag dumps? honestly when would you ever want to dump the mag in the middle of a cycle? i assume this is what you mean because of the magna-esque system. please explain why this is an advantage.

 

3) Go to the AGM thread and tell me how many of those guys have had the bolt carrier, bolt stop, or ignition parts break. Don't worry ive read the whole thing, and its virtually non existant.

"Mag dump" as in fire every single round in your magazine at full-auto for whatever reason. WA has horrendous cool down effect which makes the gun fire in progressively slower staccato.

I've seen the AGM thread. There's anything from an eaten up bolt carrier and bolt stop to broken nozzles in there.

 

WA system had more recoil. probably because the BCG actually moves.

And the one on the WE doesn't? The reason why WAs recoil harder is because their bolt carriers are much, much lighter.

 

And I'd be daft if I skirmish an AEG ever again. My Socom Gear N4 IS my typical skirmishing weapon for the past 4 months since I've had it. It's so efficient I take it up against guys with AEGs on hicaps on a weekly basis.

[3vi1-D4n]

RUBBER CHICKENS!!!

 

[Punkypink]

Gimmie that over the M16 S1 anyday.

[Jin15]

Having owned both a WA and a WE, I'll agree with many others in saying that neither are really good reliable skirmish weapons. They both have a whole boatload of issues and neither are what I would call "reliable" in any sense of the word. My WA has more issues than I could shake a stick at and I decided I'd rather not put $2k into my WA to try and make it run reliably (although I know more than a few people who did) so I sold it, and my WE was a first gen. gun from Airsoft Buddy the day they were released.

The WE had quite a few issues as well... incurably leaky magazines, gas venting issues, issues with the hammer & sear assembly not retracting the firing pin after cocking, the semi auto sear going out after a few thousand rounds, broken bolt catch within 100 rounds (it was a Gen. 1 gun though), FPS that was far too high to even think of skirmishing with on propane, the bolt wouldn't cycle back far enough to load BBs on duster gas, and a few other minor issues as well.

 

But the really funny thing here is yet with all those problems the WE had, that was still only half the problems the WA had

 

Mind you I know WE has improved greatly since the Gen.1 guns and you no longer see issues with broken bolt catches, CO2 mags offer a solution to the leaky gas mags, TSC makes a steel hammer and sear set that should prevent the sear from wearing down to the point that semi auto no longer works, and TSC now offers a power adjustment nozzle to bring it down to a reasonable skirmishing velocity.

 

And the WA system has evolved quite a bit too... you now have offerings from G&P, AGM, and Inokatsu and countless aftermarket parts to choose from as well as a whole bunch of different cheaper magazines to choose from. And while all these part and magazine options are nice to have (if they fit, since there seems to be no standardization in part sizing between the 4 companies producing guns and various aftermarket companies) they still don't solve the problem of a fundamentally flawed mechanical system that will almost inevitably have a cascade of parts failures leaving the user having to shell out insane amounts of money to try and make it run properly, often with no success.

 

Which is not to say that the WE is problem free... as I mentioned before it does have it's fair share of problems that have yet to be solved, including some I didn't mention because I never experienced them (such as shoddy hopups).

 

But... if I had to do it over again and buy another GBB M4 I'd go for a WE. It won't be problem free, but it should have less problems than any gun based on the WA system and when it does break it will be vastly cheaper to fix and get it running reliably again.

 

 

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying the WE is a great rifle. Both WE and WA system GBB M4s are unreliable as hell and suck donkey *ballistics* IMHO... I just think the WE sucks less

[stew_b_10]

"Mag dump" as in fire every single round in your magazine at full-auto for whatever reason. WA has horrendous cool down effect which makes the gun fire in progressively slower staccato.

I've seen the AGM thread. There's anything from an eaten up bolt carrier and bolt stop to broken nozzles in there.

 

 

And the one on the WE doesn't? The reason why WAs recoil harder is because their bolt carriers are much, much lighter.

 

And I'd be daft if I skirmish an AEG ever again. My Socom Gear N4 IS my typical skirmishing weapon for the past 4 months since I've had it. It's so efficient I take it up against guys with AEGs on hicaps on a weekly basis.

 

 

1) My AGM can fire 30 rds straight on full auto as well, in my cool basement. I've never vented gas in my AGM from cooldown.. i just get cool 'smoke' from the muzzle and ejection port after a long burst. id call that more realistic. And outside i don't get any more cooldown than a WE.

 

2) That was called hyperbole. Hence the tongue smiley. Lets try and keep up.

 

3) Yea, and within 15 minutes and 2 parts (spring/STU gears), i can tune my SR-16 to pull 25 a second at 500 fps. And my rig weigh half as much as yours. Take your gas gun. Ill take my AEG. But few people argue, mine will be more effective in the field.

 

4) And btw, my AGM still costs 1/3 of the price of your WE.. Doesn't that just make you angry?

[Kalmar]

Wow guys I can't believe you started the party with out me! I've been going on about this forever, but now you want to pay attention?...

 

Look, everyone is addressing the "realism" aspect as purely aesthetic - I say it's entirely functional. The open chamber design of the WA enables the bolt to function as it would on the real steel counterpart. More than that, it allows for the same training procedures, weapon malfunction clearing, and reloading drills to be practiced and utilized on the WA system as you would the real rifle; Every time the bolt locks back I roll the gun and observe the chamber to check for an empty mag, double or misfeed and then I deal with such accordingly. You simply can't do that with a brass tube in the way.

 

Does it really matter though? Whichever you choose to believe is more realistic, more skirmishable or more cost effective is irrelevant. The overall market base will decide the fate of each system, by aligning the majority of GBBR users behind one platform that will eventually take dominance and become the industry standard for future designs and production. I believe this has already happened. Pending further details of the VFC SCAR it may only become more self evident.. only time will tell.

[renegadecow]

And btw, my AGM still costs 1/3 of the price of your WE.. Doesn't that just make you angry?

Maybe if I started off with a WA. The WE is designed differently so I have no issues with AGM being cheaper.

[A Tobias]

can anyone provide accuracy tests for the we m16 or the agm m4?

im just a neutral observer trying to get in gbbs and i need to know how accurate these guns realistically are.

 

[snorkelman]

1) My AGM can fire 30 rds straight on full auto as well, in my cool basement. I've never vented gas in my AGM from cooldown.. i just get cool 'smoke' from the muzzle and ejection port after a long burst. id call that more realistic. And outside i don't get any more cooldown than a WE.

 

yup on like for like mag capacity test theres no issue firing 30 rounds in auto out of my WA based gun Its cyclic rate has no noticeable drop off thru the burst and theres no clouds of gas out the ejection port

 

tbh when it comes to issues there then I'd question wether some folks have their hammer lock set up properly, cos if they dont then the hammer is going to ride the bolt carrier back into battery on full auto and trigger gas release well in advance of the bolt carrier group being fully home. Thats going to kick the *albartroth* out of full auto performance and stick gas consumption and cooldown thru the roof.

 

Point the rifle up vertical with no mag inserted and watch the spot inside the magwell where the valve knocker emerges from the firing block

 

Set selector to auto, pull and hold the trigger.

 

With trigger still held, rack the bolt carrier group fully back to recock the hammer.

 

Now still holding the trigger slowly let the BCG return forwards

 

If you see the valve knocker emerge from the firing block before the carrier is fully home (and extend into magwell at same rate as the bolt carrier is moving forwards) then your auto hammer lock isnt catching, instead your hammer is resting against the bolt carrier group and following it home. Say hello to mistimed gas release and big clouds of unsed gas spewing out the port.

 

What it should do is stay back till the bolt carrier is fully home and then release with an audible click, in some cases you may even have to nudge the forward assist to get a half mm or so more movement out of the bolt carrier for it to trip (as the carrier being returned slowly rather than allowed to slam into place may well lack the force to nudge it fully home). Set to function like that and confirming it returns the same result multiple times by repeatign the bolt carrier racking over and over (to ensure its not inconsistent) then its golden.

 

 

 

As far as needs 2k of upgrades go, I make it 520 bucks worth of internals currently sitting in mine, with the only original internal parts still in it being

 

firing block, fire control pins, fire control springs, buffer stop wedge, forward assist, mag release button (the AGM button is a better fit in the AGM lower)

 

hop up actuating arm and hop up plastic adjustment cylinder - cos RATech seem to rely on the user recycling those parts from their original hop unit rather than supplying new ones along with their hop

 

selector and auto hammer lock - because the ino ones didn't provide reliable full auto hammer lock function in my AGM receiver as per above, wheres the AGM ones do (when properly set up)

 

everything else is cnc'd alloy or steel (mix of ino and RA-tech parts)

 

Granted I'll most likely spring for a steel forward assist, and a steel buffer wedge next time I stick an order in, but most of thats really just to finish ticking off the boxes on steel parts rather than any real pressing need for them. Even with those added to the pile you're talking 600 bucks in upgrades max

 

Now sure if you're running a stock WA you've got a few hundred bucks over cost of the AGM to lay out initially (rifle and all the above parts only amounts to 720 for an AGM), and you might be tempted to do a receiver swap over on your WA to a metal upper and lower (180 bucks), and of course if you're after a particular uber custom you might be laying out for a Prime MBK and all manner of funky barrels stocks and RIS etc (the skies the limit then)

 

But thats all dress up and nothing to do with reliable function of the base design. Getting spendy in that respect might push the upgrades budget from 600 to 2k but its hardly essentials you're laying out for by that stage...