cazboab Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 It's one step from an L85, a MK6, and bringing the rest of your cadet squad with you, Caz The important part is the direction of that step... Can we go back to the M4s now and stop talking about propane in its myriad forms? Link to post Share on other sites
3vi1-D4n Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 5 live rounds per mag? Budgetary constrains? I thought we had it bad As for GBB rifles being the best, I guess with my armoury I can pick and choose If I know I will be in a meat grinder I will be going electrics over my GBBRs. But in scenario games, it will be GBBRs and an electric + real caps for a backup. Once you start putting nasty springs and heavier pistons into an electric, it will generate enough impulse to tell you that the next shot won't be on target. I have both the WE and AGM, I like the AGM for its long range accuracy and recoil but I like the WE for its power output, and better overall build (lighter mags, more stable FPS). But for a minimal-fuss GBBR I would go AGM. And I haven't mentioned my Mini UZI, that thing is like a tank No mods or tinkering required at all Link to post Share on other sites
Kraut Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 Ok, which brand M4 has stable FPS around 400, uses CO2, requires minimum aftermarket/replacement parts to be reliable and fully functioning OOTB (Meaning, functioning bolt-stop, charging handle, that whole bit) and is below $400 (before shipping). Not to mention fairly priced mags (who in their right mind pays $100 for a mag?). I had a 2nd gen WE, but it was 2nd hand and in poor condition. It was fun to shoot in my apartment, but it sure wasn't skirmishable. I promptly sold it. Link to post Share on other sites
3vi1-D4n Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Ok, which brand M4 has stable FPS around 400, uses CO2, requires minimum aftermarket/replacement parts to be reliable and fully functioning OOTB (Meaning, functioning bolt-stop, charging handle, that whole bit) and is below $400 (before shipping). Not to mention fairly priced mags (who in their right mind pays $100 for a mag?). None. Simple answer. Until someone comes up with CO2 mags for the AGM. Link to post Share on other sites
L4byr1nth Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Errr, WE? Ben. Link to post Share on other sites
3vi1-D4n Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 WE yes, but having to fire of 1000 rounds for the hop to wear is not right at all. Plus over the course of a few thousand rounds, I have had broken/worn Part 51, part 42, part 66, part 54, hammer, charging handle. Thats of course ignoring the leaky CO2/propane mags. Its a matter of time AGM is good, but again its still early days, I only fired 900 rounds out of mine. Link to post Share on other sites
kojak Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Ok, which brand M4 has stable FPS around 400, uses CO2, requires minimum aftermarket/replacement parts to be reliable and fully functioning OOTB (Meaning, functioning bolt-stop, charging handle, that whole bit) and is below $400 (before shipping). Not to mention fairly priced mags (who in their right mind pays $100 for a mag?). I had a 2nd gen WE, but it was 2nd hand and in poor condition. It was fun to shoot in my apartment, but it sure wasn't skirmishable. I promptly sold it. I think you just described the newest WE, except for the bit about the FPS. I'm still waiting to see how the adjustable nozzles perform. Who still uses "green gas"? I don't know what I'd do without my trusty propane adapter, silicone oil, and Coleman tanks--and I'll need lots when the KWA MP7 gets here. Link to post Share on other sites
stew_b_10 Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 I bought my gun as a plinker, not a skirmsher, so the AGM wins. Better recoil, more realistic operation/takedown, way better price. no contest. Link to post Share on other sites
Optomis Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Based upon my personal experiances with both systems and owning a G&P WOC; the WA is a better system for actually skirmishing from what I have seen and used, IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY. It's not a cheap system, magazines are 50 dollars for the GHK magazines! Upgrade parts are abundant but they are expensive. The only really reliable WA based weapon out of the box is the G&P..... Which can still have problems and is by no measure "cheap". The WA based system seems to yield a more desirable recoil and the hopup is much better designed. The accuracy and range on the WA (especially the G&P) system just hands down beats the WE V.2 M4 I shot. I can accurately hit targets at 180 feet with no problems on my G&P while the WE was having trouble even reaching out to that distance. The WE system has a lack of aftermarket support, while the WA system has attracted just about a part from every well known company. I am very satisfied with my WOC and I don't think any other GBBR will be more accurate, feel better (Well.... Maybe the Inokatsu but I haven't handled one), or have better aftermarket support (The WA system as a whole that is). That is simply my opinion though, so I will leave it up to you guys to decide which one is for you. Link to post Share on other sites
Donut Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 KJW am bestest >:3 But Optomis has a point, WA has the best aftermarket support and that's very important. It's useless if you can't upgrade or replace broken parts as easily. But that said, money comes into play, and if you do have money, then that changes the scale, since WE has attracted most of the people so far because of it's price. Link to post Share on other sites
L4byr1nth Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 I can accurately hit targets at 180 feet with no problems on my G&P while the WE was having trouble even reaching out to that distance... ...The WE system has a lack of aftermarket support Wut? And Wut? Wrong on both counts. Ben. Link to post Share on other sites
LordElpus Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 I think you are misreading the whole aftermarket support racket. The reason there is alot of aftermarket support for the WA system is because there is money to be had there as the orginal spares are expensive. The WE on the otherhand none of the orignal parts can be called expensive so there is less money for 3rd parties to develope replacements. Look at the cost of the NPAS style system for the WE.. $43 with wordwide shipping and the WA? $150 plus shipping for the aluminum nozzle version. The likes of G&P and RA Tech took one look at how much work the WA system needs and saw it as a cash cow. Link to post Share on other sites
The General Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 How about this! Cyma blowback AEG AK47. £165 AGM M4 GBB £199 Both prices in the UK. AK has... better range, better accuracy, more reliable, works in the cold, has no cool down, has blow back action, larger mag as standard, more power... the list is endless. Its cheaper and its better, sure the blowback is stronger on the AGM M4 but other than that and this somewhat mythical working bolt catch. The Cyma takes the win. However, that could be that its an AK and we all know AK's own Armalites! GBB rifles... are fun but with the costs involved, its never going to be as practical as an every day use airsoft gun as an AEG. Call me what you will but the need for loads of mags and using loads of expensive green gas or 134a does not appeal to me. Link to post Share on other sites
Punkypink Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Isn't there a GBB AKSU or something actually? How reliable is that compared to the AGM M4? Link to post Share on other sites
Optomis Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Wut? And Wut? Wrong on both counts. Ben. I'm sorry but I don't think you witnessed either of the guns I was talking about shoot firsthand. You can't simply pass it off as "Wrong". The WA has better aftermarket support from 3rd party companies like RA-tech, Prime, etc. Go to Redwolf, click on the WA GBBR upgrade/part list. It's 5 pages (Well, about 1 is random Hi-cappa bits). My point is that there are more options for parts on the WA style. The WE has what, TSC? I think that's just about it. Punky- GHK makes a few AK GBBR models and sells a conversion kit. Here is one of the models (I'm fairly sure it's based on the Dboys with the kit installed): HERE Link to post Share on other sites
L4byr1nth Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 I'm free to pass off your sweeping, generalistic statements as wrong. The WE has plenty of aftermarket parts and support out there, but it doesn't need them, because it works stock Ben. Link to post Share on other sites
Punkypink Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Thanks Optimis. So far I can see, the only non-AR GBB rifles are the SCAR and the AKS 74U? Link to post Share on other sites
L4byr1nth Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Yeah, I think so at the moment, unless you want to get into SMG's? Ben. Link to post Share on other sites
Punkypink Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Yeah, I think so at the moment, unless you want to get into SMG's? Ben. 3 M11s ben. I know the MP5K's a bit more reliable and there's the MP9, but I'll lay off SMGs for awhile. Btw, WA stands for Western Arms. What does WE stand for? And which company is considered the "original"? Link to post Share on other sites
Optomis Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 3 M11s ben. I know the MP5K's a bit more reliable and there's the MP9, but I'll lay off SMGs for awhile. Btw, WA stands for Western Arms. What does WE stand for? And which company is considered the "original"? They are both original in their designs. They are both designed differently with the WA having a bit stronger emphasis on realism with an empty chamber when you rack the charging handle while the WE has a brass nozzle. I'm not going to further debate this Labyrinth, I can't sway your perspective on this and your passing my comments off as trash. The WE has no aftermarket support like the WA does. Everyone can agree on that. The WE's aren't so dandy and great out of the box. Having a look over the 200 pages on the WE thread shows an uncountable amount of problems and quirks that the WE's have. Link to post Share on other sites
Punkypink Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 They both started off manufacturing GBB pistols didn't they? And isn't one supposed to be a taiwanese copy of the other(who is japanese)'s early GBB designs? Or something? Link to post Share on other sites
L4byr1nth Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Again, wrong. I don't think 'everyone' will agree with you, and mine doesn't have any problems, so...? Also, saying it has no aftermarket support when there is a slew of upgrades and new receivers etc... Not to mention the effort WE have put in with releasing different versions. The designs, more specifically, have a major difference in the bolt. In the WA, the whole assembly moves backwards and forwards. This is why people say it's more realistic. It's also using gas less efficiently, performance-wise. The WE has a sort of bolt cover plate attached to the nozzle assembly. The plate moves all the way backwards and forwards, generating the recoil and providing the effect. The nozzle only goes back far enough to chamber the next BB. It looks like it's ejecting empty cartridges when you see it working, but obviously it's not physically ejecting anything. That's one reason why they made the nozzle brass, I suppose. WE is like WEi-Tech or something? I don't remember - I've always called it WE, manufactured in Taiwan. WA is Western Arms, from Japan. And yes, we all know you have three M11's Emily! Ben. Link to post Share on other sites
elrey Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 One interesting note: if you search the WE thread for the word "problem" you get 435 posts; "broken" gives you 139, "broke" gives 95. That seems like a lot. Link to post Share on other sites
Punkypink Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 WE is like WEi-Tech or something? I don't remember - I've always called it WE, manufactured in Taiwan. WA is Western Arms, from Japan. And yes, we all know you have three M11's Emily! Ben. You do?! Really? Nobody who knows that would ask me "you want to get into SMG's?" So I am right that WE is taiwanese and WA is japanese, which company appeared 1st? Link to post Share on other sites
cazboab Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 WA have been around for ages WE about a year, WE tend to copy whoever's gun is handy then change things a bit so you have to buy the magazines they make. Link to post Share on other sites
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