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WE Gas Blow Back M4A1 Carbine


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A bigger BB would work technically but it means drilling out the hole on the hop up unit for a bigger BB

ah, Ok, it was just an idea :)

 

 

I knew full well what I was buying into and don't feel conned about it

yeah.

I have the feeling that many guys just have no clue what they are buying/what they've bought... it seems that many users haven't read about the rifle and its (small?) problems before and now they are complaining about it..

 

..and I don't know what they're expecting,.. an absolutely fail-free rifle?

You can/will experience problems with every (new) aeg aswell,.. jams, broken pistons, shredded gears, failing batteries, double feeds, broken receivers etc etc..

 

.. and new "high tech" gears for an aeg rifle will cost what? 60€ / 80$ ?

Edited by Carsten
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Has anyone not had a problem with their WE M4? Seriously, please raise your hand. Dying to buy one of these as they seem relatively more reliable than their WA counterparts. The thread started out as a relatively strong advertisement for the WE but it's taken a turn and become more of a warning against it. WE should be sending checks to a lot of you guys for R&D fees, and they should have the funds to do this since it's apparent they didn't do much R&D themselves. It's understood that the industry is not the most highly developed around, and the fact the WE is highly involved in this thread is encouraging, but releasing an item in this state of under-development has to be causing a lot of cash to sit on the sidelines (not to mention it puts into serious question the reputation of the manufacturer). It's hard to imagine this product being adopted as a training platform as the cost and time to maintain one of these is no doubt comparable to the real steel.

 

Well, I read your post earlier & refrain myself from answering you right away. I simply wanted to see if the general consensus here is as negative as you've put it… Well, I think enough people has spoken & given their un-bias assessment of our platform here that sorta warm my heart some. So here's my own 2-cents if you care to read it…

 

Frankly, I hope that's only your personal opinion. In all fairness, let's ask those who's had absolutely zero issue with ANY airsoft guns, shall we?

 

I adamantly detest the statement hinting that our AWSS M4 platform was released 'in a state of under-development'; IMHO, it has merely gone through an 'evolution' since its initial introduction. My thanks go out to all those here who'd helped, opinionated, & made their contribution, but our own R&D guys' continuous effort is not to be denied as well. This is our first platform based on our patented (AWSS) gas blowback system, so 'growing pains' are to be expected. That is the very reason why I'm here & try my best to make a concerted effort to listen/correct/fix any issues that may come up. Contrary to your saying: '...not to mention it puts into serious question the reputation of the manufacturer...', I honestly believe that we've established a positive reputation far beyond my wildest imagination in the airsoft industry within a relatively short period of time; for that I'm eternally thankful, once again, to all here.

 

With the release of our current upgraded version of the system, as well as its new CO2 variants, I truly believe that our AWSS platform is now at its final & ultimate stage of the 'evolution'. Maintenance & special care has always been required with any type of GBB/gas guns, even pistols. Our platform requires no more, no less. And that is the reason why we're establishing parts/service centers worldwide to service all our valued customers. A list of our continuously growing authorized-dealer/parts/service network will be posted shortly for everyone's reference.

 

And, btw... your imagination couldn't be further from the truth, my friend. We've just received official invitation for the 2nd round testing/evaluation with the U.S. Army Rangers at the 5th RTB (Ranger Training Base) in May. Our CO2 AWSS M4 will go up against SimunitionFX, blanks, as well as the standard issue RS M4 in side-by-side tests in various tactical training environments. Try as you might, name another airsoft AEG/GBB gun which has achieved the same...? As far as maintenance goes, have you ever ask any mil/LE guys what happens to their RS M4s when firing the SimunitionFX or blanks thru 'em...??? I suppose not.

 

I rest my case.

 

WETTI

 

P.S. Just saw your most current post & I'm really at a lost of words here…& kinda baffled too….

 

- who are we 'partnering' with? (receivers, barrel nuts, RAILS…???)

 

- novelty item…?? You called a patented system with a single model sold in 5-figures within 6 month of introduction…. a novelty item?? Hmmmm….

 

- "strategic vision is decidedly shallow:…. Wow, this one DOES make me smile! How on earth did you dig SO DEEP to realize our 'strategic vision', my friend?

 

May be we should hire you to help map out our future for us! (Yes, I'm decidedly defensive here because you have made an open attack (no, that is NOT a criticism) on our company, period. You have stepped over the line on this one, pal.)

 

My friend, I don't know who you are & what your intention is (3 posts in all & 2 of them are directed at our product/company …. & the mention of another company's 'possible superior, market-leading' product??); but nonetheless, I welcome the constructive parts of your opinions & would continue to improve upon our platform, as well as our support/service to our customers.

 

WETTI

Edited by WETTI
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I think with the new and cheap ACM AEGs our expectations of low cost high endurance weapons have been pushed up a bit.

 

Most AEG pistons today at 400fps upgrade has a >10000 rounds to failure. Same with the XYT/ CA hardened alloy gears. The electrical trigger units and motors are now getting eroded faster than worn gears/pistons or battery failure, and AEGs can be relatively accurate even with 0.2g BBs on a 6.08mm after a good barrel/mechbox clean with no requirement to inspect it again.

 

The WE M4 still has a fair way to go to be "Airsoft reliable", which at times can be more demanding than "Milspec reliable". But I guess thats why there is such thing is a Product Improvement Program (PIP).

 

WETTI: Just don't take it too personally man! Some people are more Wound up and negative than others, and you can't please everyone. We all have expectations on things, just some have higher expectations than others.

Edited by 3vi1-D4n
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I am a fan of the WE m4 because its the best you can get... but true that WE could be doing a better ( or should have done a better job)

 

So that really makes me a fan of a GBB m4 thats so happens to be a WE. If KWA can make a better one at about the same price than I am swapping over.. its simple as that and I think it would be the sames for most owners.

 

Airsoft Brand loyalty is based on track records. WE's m4 is their saving grace (their pistols.... well.. nuff said) so if they allow KWA to beat them, then they have only themselves to blame. If they have any foresight at all they would spend some money appeasing the current m4 owners (retracting parts and supplying new ones ) and sorting out current issues quick rather than producing more models.

They made the mistake with their pistols by coming up with various models of the hi capa even though the base model wasn't all that hot.. and all that has happened is now we have a whole bunch of bad hicapas.

It seems that they are going down that same road with the m4s... but its still early days so only time will tell.

 

WE if you are reading this.. wouldn't it be better to sell a whole bunch of great GBB M4s (thus capturing the m4 GBB market) rather than many variants of a defect product?

 

Quite the contrary, we're releasing the variants just now because we feel our AWSS platform is now at its most stable & consistent form. Why do you think we would offer normal gas version of the M16A3 & the M4CQBR together with the new CO2 system? We had the 2 extra models planned long ago, but we held on to them until we've worked out most of the 'bugs' in the original system before releasing them.

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WEll, admitted I can't really speak much about my WE M4, cos I still don't have one(mainly because I'm waiting to have the V3 to get out in Germany and then have enough money for it plus at least 10 mags) but I've been following this thread quite closely.

 

Yes, the WE has issues, no doubt. so does the WA. Which ain't the point. there has been no fully automatic gas blowback rifle (except the escort-type things with the external paintball-type-gas tanks) in, well, 16 years? I mean ever since AEGs replaced the original gas airsofts in 92/93 or the like, there has been no gas system like this. new systems have issues. I doubt the V3 will solve all remaining issues. How long did the AEG take to become a stable, reliable system. I still recall times when tuners slapped m130 springs in a stock marui gearbox and wondered why those things kept breaking on them...

 

 

speaking about external parts, that's one area I find the WE most lacking, to be honest. it has the advantage that a lot of AS or RS parts fit, but what about:

-different barrel lenths(11.5", 16", 9.5" etc)

-different front sights(I haven't read about AEG models fitting)

 

 

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Yes, the WE has issues, no doubt. so does the WA. Which ain't the point. there has been no fully automatic gas blowback rifle (except the escort-type things with the external paintball-type-gas tanks) in, well, 16 years?

 

speaking about external parts, that's one area I find the WE most lacking, to be honest. it has the advantage that a lot of AS or RS parts fit, but what about:

-different barrel lenths(11.5", 16", 9.5" etc)

-different front sights(I haven't read about AEG models fitting)

 

I am sure Barrel length will be sorted in good time. Marui never came out with its own shorty barrel kits, it has always been 3rd party companies.

 

I would've been keen on the WE taking standard AEG outer barrels, like the Tanio Koba/KJW M4. But oh well.

 

As for having no full auto GBBRs in the last 16 years, I would "somewhat disagree" with that statement. The KWC/WA Mini UZI is an intermediate between a GBBR and a GBB, having more kick than the WE M4. Its basically the forerunner of the WA M4, and its pretty good. It just wasn't popular but one hell of a good SMG/Carbine, with no real parts and manufacturing issues aside from cooldown on auto, and accuracy wasn't that great great.

 

Perhaps that is what manufacturers should be aiming for?

Edited by 3vi1-D4n
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Thanks

 

I appreciate the replies, what concerns me is that WE seems to be very interested in releasing (or partnering with firms that are releasing) new models and superficial accessories (i.e.,metal receivers, barrel nuts, rails, etc.) when the fact remains that the underlying system, the foundation of the platform, cannot by any measure be considered a successful finished product. From what I've read (again, step forward if you disagree) it is barely a functional product. If WE spent money on R&D there doesn't appear to have been any left over for QC. The product capitalized on the market's desire for a unique product but hasn't truly gone much further than novelty status (granted, airsoft guns are novelties to begin with, but that only makes the WE M4 novelty squared!). The most frustrating part is that this could and should go further than novelty status. I'm willing to bet that most customers wouldn't mind shelling out an extra $75 for a highly re-enforced model, but at this point WE does not seem to be moving in that direction (unfortunately, IMO some serious trust would have to be (re)established for such a model to even be considered by consumers at this point). I think WE’s strategic vision is decidedly shallow and any competitive advantage is being squandered by wasting resources on short term goals. My prediction: KWA will take advantage of WE’s missteps and introduce a superior, market leading product. I hope to be proven wrong.

 

Why do I find it suspicious that you register here and post slanderous remarks about WE as a company and then two other members with under 10 posts between them pop up straight away afterwards and say pretty much the same thing ?

 

Everyone ,say hello to either a competion manufacturer or someone with a grudge against WE for whatever reason that is using multiple accounts or friends that have decided to join in ?

 

The WE M4 platform is very new and there will be issues as with ALL new products .

 

I have been airsofting long enough to remember that even early TM aegs had serious issues . One of these problems being lack of hopup meaning they were seriously out gunned by spring powered TM models .

 

I do not know of one single other company that have worked alongside it's customers to improve and develop it's new product like WE have !

 

Lets just look at direct competitors for starters ...........

 

WA - never answer emails etc from customers outside of Japan because Japan is all that really concerns them

 

G&P - whilst being a little more responsive than WA (who's system they use) still rarely answer queries or problems (although there are not as many issues as the WA due to their improvements)

 

Innokatsu - shall I even bother commenting ?

 

KJW/TK - I guess we shall see

 

 

That said can you now see why WE users chose WE over other GBB systems ?

 

Half the price of WA and yet has metal body and more robust system at higher pressures etc

 

Customer service that is 2nd to none

 

Constant improvements being made due to customer feedback

 

Cheaper parts by a very long way

 

Much cheaper and more robust magazines !

 

I will make a more thorough post as and when i'm not on my mobile and don't need to be asleep for work in the morning ;)

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I just replaced my steel bolt stop latch as it got worn out after less than a month, I bought a replacement from AB and after about 20 or so bolt stop releases I inspected the latch and indeed it started to wear out on the same location from my previous one. So now I would recommend to not release the bolt via "ping pong paddle" as much as possible but to release the bolt by the charging handle to delay the wear as much as possible.

WETTI, may I recommend changes either in material or design of the latch/bolt interface as they will wear out in no time.

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i raise my hand. my ver3 saw its 4th & 5th full days of skirmishing this weekend gone, no problems!

 

How does the stock New hop perform? I think most WE M4 future owners want to know this.... If it still has problems i think the best way to fix it is to release an AEG tightbore capable hop system.

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How does the stock New hop perform? I think most WE M4 future owners want to know this.... If it still has problems i think the best way to fix it is to release an AEG tightbore capable hop system.

 

i used an "ICS" M4 with a tightbore before i got my "WE" M4 and it shoots just as straight, pulled off a 50'ish meter one shot wonder on weekend.

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i used an "ICS" M4 with a tightbore before i got my "WE" M4 and it shoots just as straight, pulled off a 50'ish meter one shot wonder on weekend.

 

Thats good to hear.

You are the only person praising the new design.

 

Do you ever get shots that pull to the right or left?

Im asking, How is your "shot to shot" consistency?

 

And what weight bb are you using?

Edited by rottenotto
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I just made some chrono tests.

 

My setup was with the original 6.03mm CQB-length barrel, 300fps Steel Nozzle ("A") from Airsoft Buddy and original V1 hopup turned to minimum (no mods made to the rubber). The barrel extension was screwed on having the CQB-barrel inside. The gas I used was Begadi Power Gas (closest equivalent for GG we can get). Shots were fired in 21 degree room temperature, with warm magazine and 0.20g BB's.

 

Readings were 130m/s, 129m/s, 128m/s, 129m/s, 128m/s, 126m/s, 127m/s...

 

No more than 1-2m/s difference between single shots. I think that was very consistent. So in feet per second this translates to around 420-425fps.

 

The readings are well below the 480fps that I originally measured with the stock brass nozzle and CQB-barrel, but still a bit too much that I would be completely satisfied. At our games the limit is 1.6 joules which translates to 415fps with 0.20g bb's. So in theory this is too much for me, since the limits are strict. Now at 21 degrees it shoots closer to 1.7 joules. But since it's usually colder outside here in Finland than inside (except in mid-summer), this setup should be able to shoot below the limits most of the time. Next option would be to switch to the brass #42 part that limits the power even more, but with that the power drops below 1 joule. It's good for CQB but not for woodland skirmish.

 

WETTI: I really wish there were more nozzle options to choose from...! Especially when the CO2 system comes out. I think that there should be different types of #42 parts, since that seems the most elegant way to adjust the power. We could make our own nozzle setups easily if we could just buy couple of nozzle sets and insert the preferred #42 parts inside them.

Edited by Lupus78
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Thats good to hear.

You are the only person praising the new design.

 

Do you ever get shots that pull to the right or left?

Im asking, How is your "shot to shot" consistency?

 

And what weight bb are you using?

 

i havnt used the old hop design in the field so i couldnt compare them. every now and then il get one to the left, but if i give the barrel a clean it sorts it. woodnt say any more worse compared to my old M4. im only useing .25s at the mo.

 

my mate also got his ver3 same day as mine, he's sskirmished his 4 days still going strong aswel, no troubles.

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WETTI: I really wish there were more nozzle options to choose from...! Especially when the CO2 system comes out.

I'd like to see different drop-in replacement bolt carrier sets with choosable fps values...

 

 

maybe as a slightly cheaper offer then buying all those single parts (valve, bolt carrier, roller bearing, #36..)

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I do have to congratulate WE for providing the best after sales support any airsoft manufacturer has offered so far. But I do hope WE does take some lessons away from this, sort out the internal issues and push forward for the future.

 

That is sorta true, the service and contact is great but in the end all those improvement parts didn't have any effect.

 

 

So that really makes me a fan of a GBB m4 thats so happens to be a WE. If KWA can make a better one at about the same price than I am swapping over.. its simple as that and I think it would be the sames for most owners.

 

Second. KWA is a great company and all their pistols (and what I heard about their AEGs) are top notch. Every KWA/KSC pistol I ever owned worked flawlessly.

 

 

 

My thanks go out to all those here who'd helped, opinionated, & made their contribution, but our own R&D guys' continuous effort is not to be denied as well. This is our first platform based on our patented (AWSS) gas blowback system, so 'growing pains' are to be expected. That is the very reason why I'm here & try my best to make a concerted effort to listen/correct/fix any issues that may come up.

 

A lot of guys had put way more effords in that than I did but I still say thank you and "we" really appreciate that.

 

But anyways, on the other hadn I'd have loved to see something like "okay thank you guys, now we know the O-Ring #122 will shredd away, pm me your addresses and we're going to get each one of you a few o-rings for free".

 

btw, of course all my statments according to that topic are directed to all the companies involved in the WE M4. At this time Wetti is just the only one to quote.

 

Where was I.

 

All the V1 and even the V2 users here are some sort of pioneers who spend a lot of time, thoughts and most of all money on ideas, improvements and spare sparts to make a better and in the end cheaper ("Final versions" vs. older versions + spare parts) product available to the market.

 

okay this post is overall pretty messed up but I hope you get the point.

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i havnt used the old hop design in the field so i couldnt compare them. every now and then il get one to the left, but if i give the barrel a clean it sorts it. woodnt say any more worse compared to my old M4. im only useing .25s at the mo.

 

my mate also got his ver3 same day as mine, he's sskirmished his 4 days still going strong aswel, no troubles.

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

You say you havent used the old hop - thats good for you! Its HORRIFYING. Easily in the top 10 "worst hop ups" ever.

 

Every shot is north south east or west - and NEVER straight or level.

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I'd like to see different drop-in replacement bolt carrier sets with choosable fps values...

True, that would be the easiest method for most of the people, but ONLY if these bolt sets had been labeled with some trustworthy power figures. At the current style, you would have to buy more bolt sets than you'd really need, just to find out which one really gives you the right value. I think that having the both ways would be optimal. Just provide the ready bolt sets, but also the custom parts to tune them once you find out that they're not what was promised.

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I can't say much more than everyone else about the reliability of my rifle really.

 

Its an AFC version 1 and nothing has 'broken' on it yet, and thats seen 3-4 weeks of skirmishing. Yes the hop up is infuriating, and the hold open function seems to not want to work despite my best efforts, but all in all, nothing has fallen off or stopped it working.

 

Is it as accurate as an AEG, in a word, no.

 

If you're so worried about it, then steer well clear. This is a rifle you have to want knowing there will be some issues. Its as simple as that.

 

 

 

 

 

But back to more important things.

 

Hop up's.

 

I've given up waiting on CO2 so I'm turning my attention to the hop-up which is grabbing my goat daily.

Having looked at it, I'm convinced I can get a VSR hop system to fit. It will be a bucket load of work, but I'm probably going to give it a go.

 

I'll sound out my plan and see what you all think (and I haven't got my numbers guide here so I'm flying blind on part numbers, forgive me).

 

Basically, remove the barrel/hop from the brass housing, and remove the rubber barrel end.

I'll need to check the exact dimensions, but I think that a VSR hop rubber will place the hop in pretty much the same place as the existing one.

So then I'll need to machine out the brass barrel housing to accept the wider VSR rubber.

The barrel will need a collar to help align it in the brass part.

 

Then you can either use the ball bearing system for the hop, or my preferred idea is to make a tiny H Nub to work with the existing collar adjuster.

 

The hop rubber will need the square block on the right hand side removing, but thats small beans compared to the rest of it.

 

 

 

 

My reasoning for this is that the WE system is very similar (if somewhat inferior, sorry WETTI) to the Tanaka system (which would be an easier conversion, but lets try and get the best to fit shall we!), and the VSR system has been converted for the Tanaka, so why the hell not the WE?

 

So what do you think?

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I love your idea, whatever helps is great news!!

 

 

btw, maybe I'm just stupid but I think there is an error in the describtion of ABs O-ring set,

 

http://www.airsoftbuddy.com/index_eproduct...products_id=212

 

it says it includes the parts

Parts # 120 x 2 pcs

Parts #45 x 1 pc

Parts #121 x 1pc

 

there as in the explosion drawing part 121 is actually the piston head.

It #122 meant by this?

 

 

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QUOTE (Carsten @ Apr 20 2009, 09:24 AM)

I'd like to see different drop-in replacement bolt carrier sets with choosable fps values...

 

True, that would be the easiest method for most of the people, but ONLY if these bolt sets had been labeled with some trustworthy power figures. At the current style, you would have to buy more bolt sets than you'd really need, just to find out which one really gives you the right value. I think that having the both ways would be optimal. Just provide the ready bolt sets, but also the custom parts to tune them once you find out that they're not what was promised.

 

I am all for that , accurately rated complete drop in bolt units at a good price. Good for 'in the field' repairs and good for different game scenarios. (290-300fps for CQB, 320-350fps for outdoors, 400+ for tactical carbine)

 

 

Quite the contrary, we're releasing the variants just now because we feel our AWSS platform is now at its most stable & consistent form. Why do you think we would offer normal gas version of the M16A3 & the M4CQBR together with the new CO2 system? We had the 2 extra models planned long ago, but we held on to them until we've worked out most of the 'bugs' in the original system before releasing them.

 

Glad to hear that WE. Little things like bits falling off and breaking charging handles shouldn't really be happening.. the other stuff.. well quite understandable..unforeseeable. I have supposedly new versions ( new charging handle, etc....) of some parts coming in from AB so hopefully this will be the end of it.

The only excuse I have at the moment for not getting a second or even a third WEM4 is the bugs. But once all bugs are ironed out, Its definitely a 2nd one for me and if all is good then, then I am afraid I am going to sell my 5 AEGs and swapping completely over GBB rifles.

 

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QUOTE (Carsten @ Apr 20 2009, 09:24 AM)

The only excuse I have at the moment for not getting a second or even a third WEM4 is the bugs. But once all bugs are ironed out, Its definitely a 2nd one for me and if all is good then, then I am afraid I am going to sell my 5 AEGs and swapping completely over GBB rifles.

 

I have to agree. I would like a new v3 CO2 and already have the SCAR (confirmed release) and the SD6 (unconfirmed release) on my radar. For the odd troll or two out there I suppose this shows just how small my problems have been!

 

@WETTI

 

Just so you know I had to revise my reply to DiscoBiscuits post somewhat (I was also quite annoyed) and would just like to send my thanks and support again. Keep up the good work.

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