WE Gas Blow Back M4A1 Carbine

[renegadecow]

The auto sear arm should be vertical when set on safe or semi-auto.

[DoubleTap-TAG]

How I got semi working again on my AWSS M4A1

 

I've had my AWSS M4A1 for a few months now and recently it's developed a fault when in semi auto. When the trigger is pulled back it fires one round, then when the trigger is released it fires another. After plenty of head scratching I found the problem and this is how I fixed it. Hopefully it might help someone else.

A while ago I fitted a TSC hardened steel hammer and trigger sear. I found that the hardened steel hammer had been wearing the trigger.

 

This is the wear.

Compare it to a new trigger

 

So how can I build up the worn area and make it stronger than before?

After a rummage in the odds and sods box I found an old piston and removed the steel plate.

 

I measured the thickness of the plate and filed the same amount of the front face of the trigger and tidied up the worn area so the the plate fitted. After some glue and a couple of screws to hold it together I started shaping and adjusting it. Now I have single shot working again and the trigger has a hardened steel face that won't wear out again.

 

I've kept the image size small because there's a few of them. If anyone wants larger images or more info just PM me.

Thanks to Mark at Tactical Quartermaster for taking a trigger out of his own rifle for the photo's. I can't buy a new trigger in the UK at the moment, and I'm a tightfisted Yorkshireman in case you wondered why I didn't just buy a new one

Edited January 15, 2010 by DoubleTap-TAG

[kojak]

Thanks for the detailed photos Double-Tap, I guess that's why they say to install the TSC trigger parts as a set.

 

Try moving the fire selector to "semi" or "safe" before closing the rifle. Usually if it's set on "auto" the receivers wont close completely.

 

My auto sear was still slightly crooked--had to straighten it out a little more to clear the bolt and it closed up fine.

 

The auto sear arm should be vertical when set on safe or semi-auto.

 

Thanks; looks like I have it shaped correctly, but I ordered a new one just in case.

 

The gun works perfectly in semi, but in auto the trigger won't "reset" reliably anymore when you rack the action. If I fire it on auto I get a long burst with a quick tap of the trigger.

 

Could this be a problem with the (unmodified) TSC trigger group? It's functioned fine for 1000 rounds or so, except that the fire selector will not move between semi and auto when the gun is uncocked (the stock trigger parts never did that).

 

For troubleshooting purposes, the problem popped up when I was experimenting with different lengths for the buffer stop, no other parts were modified recently.

[jkpics]

TSC makes ######

[danielsilva]

Could this be a problem with the (unmodified) TSC trigger group? It's functioned fine for 1000 rounds or so, except that the fire selector will not move between semi and auto when the gun is uncocked (the stock trigger parts never did that).

 

For troubleshooting purposes, the problem popped up when I was experimenting with different lengths for the buffer stop, no other parts were modified recently.

 

Well that is the default behaviour of the weapon, my M4 ( TSC trigger group ) and M16 ( Original trigger group ) display the exact same behaviour. I got the same problem when i used the TSC trigger, the bloody thing came WAY out off center and would erractly engage causing the behaviour you describe, the other parts worked just fine. That's why this ingenious solution that DoubleTap engeneered is a godsend!

[kojak]

TSC makes ######

 

True, but hardly a useful contribution. If you have another current source for a steel trigger group I would love to hear about it.

 

Well that is the default behaviour of the weapon, my M4 ( TSC trigger group ) and M16 ( Original trigger group ) display the exact same behaviour. I got the same problem when i used the TSC trigger, the bloody thing came WAY out off center and would erractly engage causing the behaviour you describe, the other parts worked just fine. That's why this ingenious solution that DoubleTap engeneered is a godsend!

 

If it's the trigger itself, I would rather modify the steel one then make a steel patch for the pot metal one.

 

Did you experience sticking in full auto like me, or the bursts in semi like DoubleTap-TAG?

 

[danielsilva]

True, but hardly a useful contribution. If you have another current source for a steel trigger group I would love to hear about it.

 

To be honest although the trigger sucked donkey *albatross* ( straight to the garbage bin ), the other two components worked fine ( and still do ), only the sear had to be filled a bit but that's hardly a problem

 

If it's the trigger itself, I would rather modify the steel one then make a steel patch for the pot metal one.

 

Did you experience sticking in full auto like me, or the bursts in semi like DoubleTap-TAG?

 

Actually both! At first it would give me random bursts even without having to quickly tap the trigger, eventually the problem escalated and the gun constantly would stick on full auto. After a quick inspection revealed that because the trigger was out of centre, the trigger would lean to one side and scrap the side of the trigger cage. At first the issue wasn't very perceptible because the trigger springs were strong enough to push the trigger back to it's initial position but since the force was too much the springs eventually became weaker and couldn't push the trigger back to it's position, the gun would enter in full auto until i tap the lower receiver and free the trigger.

 

For the time being i'm waiting for a couple of replacement springs from Mark, as soon i get them i'll try to modify the TSC trigger and re-centre it but for the time being i'm just using the rest of the TSC parts with the original trigger, the gun performs great anyway.

[Autotechnica]

Hey guys, I think CO2 has taken a toll on my gun. I've had another failure. Bolt got stuck.. used forward assits. I removed the top receiver and the hammer broke in 2 and a small peice of shiney metal fell out as well. However, now I can't mate the 2 receivers together properly without pushing part #48 forward and holding it there first. I'm assuming that the small peice of metal that broke off was part #66 trigger assembly. I can't be sure since I haven't opened up the trigger pack (never done this before). I've ordered TSC steel hammer, sear and a PMC steel trigger assembly as well as the original WE part #48 since I don't see any upgrades for this part. Is this a common problem? Do I need any other parts? I've read breifly about something that needed filing? Can someone elaborate? Any guides for trigger pack dissasembly. I really wish a lot of this info would be added to the WE wiki page rather than this 300+ pages of unsearchable info.

 

I wanted a steel part #61 as well, but couldn't find this anywhere except the dreaded airsoftbuddy. I ordered the rest of my parts from IPSCGM. Love them, they always ship on time, no backorders. I still don't understand airsoftbuddy. It's like, hey guys, check it out, I've got all these new parts. Oh you want to order them? Well *$# YOU!

 

thanks guys.

 

Bry

Edited January 16, 2010 by Autotechnica

[kojak]

I'm starting think WE was wrong to ever sell CO2 mags; too many parts fail under the stress.

 

So yesterday my RA-TECH NPAS nozzle snapped in half at the gas holes. This was on a clean, lubed, inspected gun with a polished chamber and a perfectly centered guide rod. It lasted maybe 1000 rounds in total, in mild weather using CO2, with no BB chopping or signs of bending.

 

Anybody try one of these yet? It's more TSC junk but the design looks a lot more sturdy.

 

Stock part:

 

NPAS:

 

TSC:

 

Maybe the NPAS guts fit in the TSC nozzle?

Edited January 17, 2010 by kojak

[AKRay]

Anybody try one of these yet? It's more TSC junk but the design looks a lot more sturdy.

 

Stock part:

http://www.airsoftbuddy.com/member/52976/p...68_IMG_2347.JPG

 

NPAS:

http://en.ratech.com.tw/img/rag/rag-we/rag_we005_d2.jpg

 

TSC:

http://www.airsoftbuddy.com/member/52976/p...19_IMG_3396.JPG

 

Maybe the NPAS guts fit in the TSC nozzle?

 

Bit of a bugger with your CO2 nozzle, does make me kinda happy that I've stuck to green gas so far, though I was thinking of trying to snag a CO2 conversion kit for my rifle to increase it's usability in the UK.

 

I'm very tempted to pick up one of those new TSC nozzles.

 

I really should get my hands on one of the RA-Tech NPAS kits too, I'd like a bit more scope for adjustment of FPS to keep my M4 "site-legal"

[danielsilva]

I'm starting think WE was wrong to ever sell CO2 mags; too many parts fail under the stress.

 

So yesterday my RA-TECH NPAS nozzle snapped in half at the gas holes. This was on a clean, lubed, inspected gun with a polished chamber and a perfectly centered guide rod. It lasted maybe 1000 rounds in total, in mild weather using CO2, with no BB chopping or signs of bending.

 

Maybe the NPAS guts fit in the TSC nozzle?

 

To be honest i think it's more fault of RA-Tech than it is from WE. I also bought an NPAS but i just don't use it, i gutted the thing and swapped it with a standard nozzle. Look a few pages back and it's not the first NPAS nozzle that broke, even my own with just a few hundred rounds showed MUCH MUCH more wear than the factory nozzle with more than 6k rounds on it

I just think the material used by RA-Tech is a bit on the soft side to be used with Co2.

 

I suppose it should work with the TSC nozzle, at least it worked with the factory nozzle without much fiddling.

[kojak]

Thanks, I hadn't heard of anyone switching the NPAS guts into the stock nozzle. I broke a factory CO2 nozzle too, but it did last much longer and showed signs of weakening before it broke; the NPAS looked fine at the start of the day.

[PheonixZero]

Gents,

What is the consensus on buying one of these?

http://www.ratech.com.tw/store/product.php?id_product=279

 

I'm not great on doing internal work on GBBs so having an upgraded one come directly to me is appealing...

 

For what it is worth, I'd be using GG/propane only. This is to be a fun/cqb weapon for me. I have SAWs for intensive field days.

 

With the above, would I need to replace anything else?

[somegirls]

I'd highly recommend one of these.

 

RA-TECH is top notch because they actually, believe it or not, test their products before they sell them!!!!

 

Seriously, RA-TECH is maybe the best aftermarket company out there.

 

BTW, since KWA announced their GBBR M4 series, anybody wants to buy my WE M4? Like new, used twice, broke once!

[alston251]

Does anyone know what happened to the VFC GBB series?

Edited January 20, 2010 by alston251

[kimkafwan]

Tsc nozzle is quite good but the gas/co2 consumption increased.

[emp3ror86]

Why is that KWA GBBR is so big deal? Do you know something?

 

I'm sad to read that the CO2 stuff is not as durable as it should be. The 4168 almost convinced me to buy WE.

[kojak]

I'm sad to read that the CO2 stuff is not as durable as it should be. The 4168 almost convinced me to buy WE.

 

It's hard to say with so many conflicting reports. I went with CO2 because I was hoping for more consistency, but my FPS fluctuates quite a bit and the breakdowns are maddening.

 

Guys, I would really appreciate it if you would vote in this poll and post a description of your gun.

[julietcharlie]

It was the same reason I got the CO2 kit I thought it will give me better consistency. Now talking about muzzle velocity consitency I just got myself a TSC loading nozzle TS-19 and it does work very well.

[danielsilva]

And today i found a new "problem" ... I bought two new CO2 mags and when i went to try it, i was at first very pleased because both came with no leaks at all ( which i wasn't actually expecting since they appear to be first gen ) but when i was shooting with on of them through the chrono, the FPS readings were VERY inconsistent, like 15 to 30fps variance between shots!! Which is ridiculous since i usually get a 5fps variation with propane, that wasn't making any sense to me. I then took out the mag and tried the other one, no variation whatsoever ... Just then i noticed the colour of the mag, it was tan like the ones for the SCAR, i did noticed a bit of resistance from the mag when inserting it on the magwell but just thought it was because the mag was new.

 

Comparing it to the black ones it's definitely for the SCAR and it seats a bit high on the chamber and it seems that is sufficient to produce this problem. Anyone had the same issue ? Fixed it how ?

[kojak]

Tsc nozzle is quite good but the gas/co2 consumption increased.

 

I don't think it's possible for the nozzle to cause it to use more gas.

 

It was the same reason I got the CO2 kit I thought it will give me better consistency. Now talking about muzzle velocity consitency I just got myself a TSC loading nozzle TS-19 and it does work very well.

 

Assuming you have a carbine barrel and the stock guide rod, what's your FPS like with that nozzle on CO2?

[julietcharlie]

I'm using GG and I average at 375 fps on 0.3g.

My initial testing with 2 mag fills only, first shot with full gas at 415 fps and leveled of at 375 ave. after about 5 shots with 10 sec interval I can get a deviation as small as 0.5 fps with a few 10 fps deviations once in a while. Rapid firing I guess would yield maximum deviations of around 20 fps, but not really sure since my chrono can't reset as fast as my trigger finger.

[mnmc10]

julietcharlie,

 

i managed to make me my own uni direction rod, i used the existing rod and modified the black thingy that holds the blowback piston. i bet if you use this coupled with your rocket valve your fps consistency will be much tighter.drop by anytime at my house so i can show you.

[wraithxt1]

Reading all of this makes me quite happy to have sold my WE M4. After going through a ver 1 and a ver 2 with constant, maddening issues I decided it just wasnt worth it.

 

I'll pick up another M4 when someone comes out with an external air powered one.

[julietcharlie]

I remember that project of yours and was thinking of making one myself. Unfortunately I can't take my gun out before May so I guess we can't test the TS-19 with your home brew non-rotating op-rod.

Edited January 22, 2010 by julietcharlie