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Beautiful illustrations coco.

 

But the bb is stopping further than you have drawn - Seen in the actual photos.

 

You can plainly see the ridge in the rubber chamber (#117) in the actual photo. The bb is ahead of this so it isnt being held by the rubber chamber any longer. It is being kept from rolling out the barrel by the green dot.

 

Thanks Otto :)

 

you're right, we see the ridge:

oy99727986749.jpeg

 

in the 3D model:

xc61163457148.jpeg

 

and in the split view:

or39801262282.jpeg

 

But the BB is not held by the zone before the ridge, but by the zone after it:

hm63032638026.jpeg

 

The zone A is too wide, with a diameter of 6.2mm, to hold the BB, it's the zone B, after the ridge, wich hold the BB.

 

But if the zone B is full of silicone, it will not hold the BB (before taking the pictures, i have clean out the barrel and #117), and then it will be the green dot that will hold the BB, or not, just like you said.

 

The point is to avoid the green rubber #118 to have to hold the BB, and make the #117 to work correctly despite being full of silicone. I think it could be done by adding a lip to #117 (WETTI if you read us :rolleyes: ):

yi95236333046.jpeg

 

The problem is to make the lip thin enough to avoid blocking the BB, but thick enough to hold it despite the silicone.

Edited by cocofr69
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Cocofr69: So basically I am correct. The BB is held by the bucking in zone B.

 

If you take a look at my fix in the previous post then yes you are also correct I made the lip thin enough to avoid blocking the BB, but thick enough to hold it WITHOUT applying silicone oil.

 

My rifle bore is clean, as no oils are used in the barrel assembly at all.

 

In fact I made the nozzle fit into the bucking a lot looser (I bored out zone A ever so slightly) so when it shrinks during cooldown the nozzle doesn't get seized by the bucking, and allow better reliability.

 

 

I just wish there was a better way to fixing this. Maybe like rottenotto said, move the hop up further forward?

 

Perhaps take a chapter from Tanio Koba's design? He uses AEG outer barrels, so something must be able to be done.

Edited by 3vi1-D4n
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Great work coco.

 

After looking at your drawings I think I now know the reason why sometimes I get inconsistent muzzle velocity.

Some times the BB is chambered too forward hence when I finally fired the shot the BB is not providing a good seal around #117, or the other way around, and results in a loss in power.

I too believe in a modified 117 like your proposal.

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Let's put this debate to rest. :D

 

How about someone remove the green rubber hop-up and see whether the BBs roll out. Then someone keep the green hop-up in and remove #117. :)

 

 

I did,....and after a burst, the last bb loaded rolls out the barrel when I point the gun to the ground. Every time.

 

I have a chromed barrel coming from William next week. When I change it out, and everything is apart again, Ill post a video on the WIKI post. Ill fire the gun with no 'gen 1' hop rubber and youll see what I am talking about.

 

We are talking less than 1mm (!!) between the last ridge of the chamber and the hop dot - cant you see its resting against the green dot for gawds sake. Its so obvious. Look at the pics and NOT "speculative" illustrations.

 

And lastly, cleaning the inner barrel is so (so!) important on a sloppy GBB. I guarantee all of the members complaining about super bad 'shot to shot consistency' (me included) could benefit from cleaning the inner barrel religiously.

 

I will post a "how to" this weekend that should be very informative. Cleaning the inner barrel and what I learned.

 

If you could stop flinging wet gas and oil into the chamber and down the barrel you could improve the guns accuracy (no hooking). Thats what I am hoping for with the new CO2 platform.

 

This really isnt rocket science.

 

PS

 

And by the way, Coco, beautiful illustrations (good effort mate) but they are completely contrived.

 

You see the bb WAY ahead of the final ridge in the photo - and obviously resting against the green dot - yet your illustration shows it BACK and comfortably in the chamber. This isnt reality.

 

Unless you get a rectal scope and insert it down the barrel to SEE, the pretty diagrams are hardly official. Again - no hop in my gun - bb's roll out. End of story.

 

correctedwehop.jpg

 

THE POSITIVE SIDE is that you see and understand that the bb will almost always be pushed further than the chamber seal. Oily or not. I could write a book on the delayed loading of this modified Escort system and how brilliant it is.

 

There is a far greater problem underpinning all this discussion. We all are treating the "symptoms" and not the PROBLEM.

 

The old Escort Shoeis I owned had FIXED loading nozzles - meaning the nozzle would go back as far as the bolt. Then traveling a great distance forward again, slamming the bb into next week. The inertia was WAY too much for the ballistics of a tiny plastic bb.

 

The WE system attempts to sort that out and has the nozzle attached to a sliding rod (the 'op rod').

 

This is so that as the bolt is blown back, once a point is reached, then and only then, the loading nozle is drawn back a small distance. Just far enough to clear the bb stack and load the next bb. With the least amount of forward inertia possible. This WE loading design mimics an AEG as best it can.

 

It is NIGHT AND DAY better than my old Escort system, but still imparts a great force when loading the bb - perhaps too much even still.

 

This whole problem we are discussing comes back to this one BIGGER problem and thats the force/inertia/weight of a real steel type loading system - and a tiny plastic bb.

 

The loading system is like using a 'backhoe to scratch your back'.

Edited by rottenotto
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Rottenotto;

 

Most WE M4s I have seen don't share your problem. BBs too often get stuck in zone B. However some other WE M4s do share your problem as reported here. I think there is a variance in the dimension of the bucking.

 

Well I had the same problem as you when I used too much silicone oil OOTB, or when I bored out the bucking at zone B too much and didn't use enough superglue at the outside to close zone B up, the BBs were thrown out of zone B onto my hop up. Now I have a trimmed hop up as you know from a few posts ago, so the BBs just rolled out the barrel as I fired.

 

However what I did notice was when I just racked the gun, the BB didn't roll out. This is when I realise the hard rubber at the rear of the stock tube that hits with the recoil buffer, was creating a solid elastic surface for the recoil buffer to return harder and faster than just by the spring itself.

 

Hence I made a composite rubber stop. I trimmed a 6-7 mm off the end of the rubber stop and added a 40 shore silicone rubber thing (off a toy), and wolla I minimised the elastic return of that piece of rubber, so the BB doesn't get thrown past zone B.

 

This whole problem we are discussing comes back to this one BIGGER problem and thats the force/inertia/weight of a real steel type loading system - and a tiny plastic bb.

 

Correct, but with the right technique we can solve this.

 

Mine works again, with a new trigger sear :) But it still not grunt proof LOL

Edited by 3vi1-D4n
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BBs dont get stuck in the chamber until there is a misfeed. Misfeeds are caused by too much silicone in the gas mixture. One misfeed leads to double loading. Double loading leads to "chopped bb's" and wadding.

 

I had bb's wadded in the chamber so fiercly I had to use a an AR15 cleaning rod to smash them out. This is when we experimented with canned gas vs Propane for the WIKI post.

 

You can take a perfect working WE rifle and cause chopping and wadding by just using a canned green gas with too much silicone. From 'swan to toad' in just one magazine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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i dont know if im just lucky but my gun shoots fine, it just has terrible accuracy. the only real problem i had was the bolt catch not catching the bolt after the last shot. did the mod on here that someone posted and it worked for me. if the new barrel and hopup really work in the accuracy department im stoked.

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Well I have to say that people's perseverance with this is ASTOUNDING. Truly amazing chaps. Now I know this post is a bruiser, but please take the time to read it carefully.

 

COCO. that CAD work is sublime. You should be very proud of yourself.

 

Now, at a risk of causing offence. Otto/Dan... Please don't fall into the trap of thinking that your own viewpoint is essentially the correct one. As far as I can see, they are BOTH extremely valid, so don't try to shout the other down to promote your own. This isn't a wee'ing contest. Its problem to solve.

 

Otto hit the nail on the head with this comment.... "it's not rocket science"

 

Personally my view is thus...

 

The BB is getting stuck in a combination of places. Partly being held by 117, and partly coming to rest against the hop up nub. As we've already determined the gap between the two is minimal (+/- 1-2mm), and as we have seen when firing between different modes (superbly demonstrated by COCO's pics and CAD), the BB rests in a different place by a few mm, so can easily be resting either at 117 or the hop-up nub, supporting both Otto's and Dan's theories.

 

Lets not delve too deeply here.

 

We know the hop-dot is too small. The contact area on the BB is TINY... and if this is misaligned even slightly it moves that point of contact to the left or the right of centre. This causes hook (try it on a snooker ball). The added element of crud in the gas only exacerbates this, as does the BB sticking on part 117. Compare this to an AEG rubber. The bump extends across the whole of the barrel. This creates an even and large contact point across the whole of the top of the BB.

 

We know the hop-dot is way too hard. We all suffer maddeningly aggressive hop. Its either on and we can fire round corners, or the BB's roll out of the barrel. You can tell this by squeezing it, then doing the same against a normal AEG rubber. This hardness is only increased by the usage of a metal ball bearing directly on top of it as its actuator. You get a tiny dot of an actuator on a tiny dot of hard rubber..... you see where I am going?

Compare this to a VSR H-Nub. The contact points are 'on the edges', effectively at 11 and 1 o'clock. The bit in the middle is allowed to flex as the BB passes it. The same goes for AEG rubbers. They have the small compressable actuator, this allows the BB to create it own even pressure as it passes.

 

Most (certainly AEG's and VSR's/Tanaka's in my experience) have the BB held by the hop rubber bump. I shall direct you to this handy pic on WGC.

http://www.wgcshop.com/pcart/shopper.php?i...-TMSCP_srch_vsr

 

Any shroud at the front of the rubber (ie 117) is designed purely as a nozzle air seal as far as I see it. In an AEG the nozzle pushes the BB past the rubber lip into the barrel, it is then held by the bump, spring then fires, hey presto (rinse and repeat very quickly). Failure to get the BB in this correct place caused problems elsewhere as was my experience with the BGS system.

 

So making sure that it sits between the bump and 117 is pretty paramount. As Otto suggested earlier.

Dan's suggestion of creating a non-sticky film on 117 does the same thing but from the other end. It removes this sticky bit.

 

****I'm losing the thread myself at this point****

 

So... in conclusion.

The inherent instability of the hop system is down to design and material. Its too small and too hard for its purpose.

Look at the facts...

 

Listed with contact area/contact place/material density

 

WE Hop - small/centre/hard = rubbish

Tanaka Original - small/centre/hard = rubbish

Tanaka V2 - larger/edges/softer = better

AEG - Large/Variable(due to compression)/Soft = good

VSR - Large/edges (H-Nub)/Soft = brilliant

 

**as an addendum and to illustrate a point**

 

Marui Socom. Gas pistol as you are all aware, so should in theory suffer from the same gas inconsistencies to a point. Phenomenally accurate! I mean out of a SOCOM or a WE M4, gimme the SOCOM every day of the week. I'll own you hands down.

has the same hop system as the VSR (as does the Hi-Capa, also very accurate).

 

**end addendum**

 

I think BB placement in 117 is having some effect, but the majority of our issues come from the hop design itself and gas inconsistency/contamination.

 

I may be wrong, but thats how I see it. We're all wee'ing into the same pot, just from different sides.

Edited by The Chef
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i dont know if im just lucky but my gun shoots fine, it just has terrible accuracy. the only real problem i had was the bolt catch not catching the bolt after the last shot. did the mod on here that someone posted and it worked for me. if the new barrel and hopup really work in the accuracy department im stoked.

 

hi

 

I replaced my version one bolt stop with the steel one. For a few mags it worked, now it doesn't. Please point me in the direction of the mod :)

 

Regards

 

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I just dismantled my inner barrel for the first time and I only have one bearing part #110, where is the second? on another note can/should #117 be removed?

 

**** edit ****

 

I can only assume that the WE exploded diagram shows a different revision of the hop assembly, mine matches the recent diagram produced by coco (excellent work). I cant seem to find part #109 or bearing #108

 

**** edit ****

Edited by Marky [UE]
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I just dismantled my inner barrel for the first time and I only have one bb part #110, where is the second?

 

**** edit ****

 

I can only assume that the WE exploded diagram shows an different revision of the hop assembly as mine matches the recent diagram produced by coco (excellent work). I cant seem to find part #109 and only have a single bearing (assume #110)

 

**** edit ****

 

Lol! I was confused too! I thought I lost a bearing..I nearly cried.

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Hi there :)

 

today, i have made the test of removing the rubber #118 and shoot a auto 4-5 BBs burst to see what happens, and this is the result:

 

lk58879521261.jpeg

 

the BB doesn't fall, it is firmly held by #117.

 

Then, i disassembled the parts to try to mesure the exact position of the BB in the #117, as you can see i have take out all the parts of the hop-up before testing:

 

xc78375337739.jpeg

po86779323453.jpeg

 

With a lot of care, i mesured the position of the BB in the #117:

 

yj35749852578.jpeg

 

and i modified the CAD model:

 

tr28546856837.jpeg

 

So the difference between the position of the BB after manually cooking and after a burst is about 1mm, the BB is still 0.3mm from the #118 and 1mm from being out of the #117.

Of course, during the disassembly and the mesurement, the BB could have moved a bit, so the distance with the #118 could be be slightly different, but the important thing is that the BB is far enough from the end of the #117 to be firmly held by it.

 

After that, i can say that the 117 can hold the BB, and maybe having being designed for it, despite the fact that there is no #118. But this test have been made with a clean #117 and barrel, and i'm convinced that after a few mags with green gas, the silicone will make the BB to slip out of the #117 to the green rubber #118.

 

So the design of #117 can be improved to works correctly by blocking the BB even when full of silicone, there is enough space to fit a lip after the BB.

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So I think the logical conclusion is that the BB is getting a bit of both,

 

Stuck in 117 and held up by the hop nub.

 

Dan, Otto. I think you can both feel vindicated by that.

 

 

 

 

Now all I need to know is this.

 

Do the relative points on a VSR hop rubber match up to the WE? If so. I'm going to mill out a nozzle/hop housing to take one.

 

I think I'm going to peruse those CAD drawings for the correct dimensions and check them against an old barrel I've got kicking about! Another job for tomorrow.

 

 

 

***edit***

 

oh... Marky, I think the extra Ball Bearing and Hop Rubber in the diagram relate to the CQB barrel. So, same part, they'd just have a different part number for a component picking list (###### way of doing it, but I've had to deal with a similar system).

Edited by The Chef
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Guys...this is simply amazing!! It's 0713 here & I haven't hit the sack yet.... just been totally mesmerized by the discussion here....

 

Whatever it is, I applaud all of you here!!

 

I PROMISE you all here that we'll reward your effort will something(S) VERY exciting very soon..... ;) (nope, nothing about the hop-up)

 

Now, back to the point of discussion.... I just came back from a friend's (3rd party manufacturer) workshop witnessing 1st hand the prototype conversion of our AWSS system into accommodating the regular AEG barrels & hop up. I hope this is of some interest to you all... ^_^ I was surely amazed....

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So I think the logical conclusion is that the BB is getting a bit of both,

 

Stuck in 117 and held up by the hop nub.

 

Dan, Otto. I think you can both feel vindicated by that.

 

 

 

 

Now all I need to know is this.

 

Do the relative points on a VSR hop rubber match up to the WE? If so. I'm going to mill out a nozzle/hop housing to take one.

 

I think I'm going to peruse those CAD drawings for the correct dimensions and check them against an old barrel I've got kicking about! Another job for tomorrow.

 

 

 

***edit***

 

oh... Marky, I think the extra Ball Bearing and Hop Rubber in the diagram relate to the CQB barrel. So, same part, they'd just have a different part number for a component picking list (###### way of doing it, but I've had to deal with a similar system).

 

 

Hi Chef

Thanks for the thoughtful posts.

 

My gun without the hop rubber installed will not hold a bb. After a burst, point the barrel to the floor, and "tick tick tick" a bb rolls out and bounces on the floor - everytime.

 

My chamber also has thousands of rounds on it. Does this matter? Probably.

 

Also some of the replacement chambers were tighter than others - reported by users here. Different lots manufactured by WE.

 

But all that aside - firing one single burst in a controlled environment, then diassembling for photographs isnt the real world unfortunately.

 

The chamber is >constantly< being "exercised" by bb after bb - magazine after magazine.

 

It is constantly being "wetted down" by liquid propane and silicone - its being hardened or softened by changing temps or "venting".

 

The end result is that - in normal operation - the chamber seal is only slowing the bb down at best - it is not capturing it. The Hop up is what is ultimately stopping the bb in all but a brand new gun.

 

This is the reality of what is going on in most WE M4's, my pic below - An age old problem in GBB rifle design. Nothing new.

 

 

 

correctedwehop.jpg

 

There is a reason that ALL of the GBB airsoft guns (not pistols) in the past have been tiny; Maruzen Tec9, MP5K, Scorpion, KWA Mac11, Hudson Grease Gun - you will have your best luck building a succesful GBB smg if it has a TINY lightweight bolt with limited travel. It is better matched to the ballistics (weight) of a plastic bb.

 

But a large heavy steel bolt on a full size rifle like the MP44 or M16? Forget about it. The loading process is like "using a backhoe to scratch your back".

 

 

 

You can work at this problem from 2 ends -

 

Work at tighter seals and reduced chamber diameters to "catch a bb"....which will ultimately cause greater problems in the end.

 

OR,..

 

Lessen the inertia or "impact" of a heavy bolt slamming the bb forward. Which WE clearly set out to do.

 

As I explained last page, WE tech gets my vote for "brilliance" with the long "op rod" that delays the muzzle loading - they effectively reduced the distance the brass muzzle loader (nozzle) travels, and lessens its forward impact on the bb by doing so.

 

But it evidently is still not enough. I would be figuring how to "buffer" the loading process long before "constricting" the breech area.

 

The answer seems obvious to me - a spring loaded muzzle/loader (NOZZLE TIP). The worlds FULL SIZE gbb rifle problems would be fixed.

 

 

 

Edited by rottenotto
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Now Rottenotto, muzzle loaders? LOL

 

With a composite rubber buffer stopper I did managed to lessen the return strength of the bolt, so what you said needed to be done to buffer the return, has been done.

 

Now we wait for that AEG barrel improvement, particularly if its with an AEG barrel and VSR hop unit :)

 

Also you realise the secret of the VSR accuracy isn't in the rubber its the H-hop lever that pushes on the rubber.

 

Lukvdh: No the new hop has not corrected the inaccuracy issues we are currently discussing. From my understanding because part #117 is holding onto the BB, it is causing some of the hooking to the rifle. I don't think we have a concensus on what causes this hooking.

 

On the WE, there is 3 things that I find causes the inaccuracy.

 

1) Barrel warping (caused by a fixed chamber block on a misaligned outer barrel, curving the barrel to one side) - causes hooking

2) The bucking #117 - causes hooking

3) Small and hard contact area for the hop nub. Should be wide and softer - causes inconsistent hop.

 

 

This is what this debate is about. Some people think hooking is caused by oils while some are arguing that it isn't so. Some are arguing that its the small contact area on the hop nub.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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3) Small and hard contact area for the hop nub. Should be wide and softer - causes inconsistent hop.

In the interest of scientific testing, if anyone wants to try out the new (for the old version) hop rubber that I designed a few dozen pages back, you could PM me your address and I'll mail you a copy for free. Its pretty much solved ALL my hop problems for the past few weeks I've been using it. On rolling bbs, cleaning my rifle regularly does the trick so I never thought of making a new #117, but I suppose I could dabble on it a bit.

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In the interest of scientific testing, if anyone wants to try out the new (for the old version) hop rubber that I designed a few dozen pages back, you could PM me your address and I'll mail you a copy for free. Its pretty much solved ALL my hop problems for the past few weeks I've been using it. On rolling bbs, cleaning my rifle regularly does the trick so I never thought of making a new #117, but I suppose I could dabble on it a bit.

 

The way things are going, I'd rather take your DIYed rubber rather than from the OEM. You have a PM bro.

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I think (if I'm getting you, Ott.) he means a nozzle with some sort of spring to compress it when loading. Not sure how/if it would would myself, though. Fancypants illustrations, please. :D

 

I don't really see a way to get a modern GBB pistol loading nozzle without completely redesigning the hop up/feeding unit area and modifying the magazine.

 

 

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