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Lupus78

WE Gas Blow Back M4A1 Carbine

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I sill do not believe there is anything to be worried about with these WE M4 mags, they've been out for quite some time now and other than these stupid stories of mags being exposed to excessive sunlight and heat these mags are not just randomly exploding.

 

Just think about the GreenGas you can buy online these days. How long did it take for the older gas cans to get banned from online shipment ordering because of safety reasons?? and how many of them exploded and injured people?

 

You guys are worrying about nothing. Use and store your mags properly. The end.

 

I'll post pictures of the mag that exploded when it attained just a max around 35 celcius- and I'm being pessamistic because ambient temp was no more than 20 celcius. I'll also post pics of my ceiling with bits missing. An exploding propane mag is a frag grenade. It could have torn into a person- more specifically someone's eyes. The various bits of SHARP pot metal were sprayed all over the room. Do you really think it just goes 'pop' ?

 

What sort of pressure will rip apart the outer mag casing and them project shrapnel at sufficient velocity to take chucks out of my ceiling??? You've got to be kidding or very wishful if you think one of these exploding mags will not injure someone sometime soon.

Edited by bbstriker

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Dude the man just got his rifle 2 weeks ago, cut him some slack and in time he'll find the good the bad and the ugly of this system. Having said that, I still love shooting mine but I feel this is ONE OF THE major issues that need addressing.

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Dude the man just got his rifle 2 weeks ago, cut him some slack and in time he'll find the good the bad and the ugly of this system. Having said that, I still love shooting mine but I feel this is ONE OF THE major issues that need addressing.

 

Yep, the WE M4 is the best M4 GBB - mine rocks!

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OK OK I apologize for flying off the handle gents.

 

BBstriker, I'm glad you weren't killed by that frag grenade of a mag.

 

I'll leave the rest of this discussion up to those of you who are actually concerned with overheated exploding mags.

 

As for me, I'll just continue to keep my mags out of direct sunlight exposure until you all figure out how to let them overheat without exploding.

 

 

 

Cheers Mates!

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I was thinking the same :D

 

Fact is vicious we've heard too many stories of exploding mags. I for one would rather believe that than lie to myself that those are nothing more than bs. Come on, what would one gain from lying about exploding mags?

 

The known recorded temperature for WE mags to explode was at 40C, can Net Ronin confirm this? It wasn't just his, his friend's as well. I believe another member here had his explode at 35C? What's the max operating temperature WE's mags were designed to work at again? No specifications on this...

 

Assuming the mags suffer a catastrophic failure at 40C (propane vapor pressure 170ish PSIG), this would put WE mag's safety factor at only 1.3 assuming the max operating temperature is at room 27C (propane vapor pressure 130 PSIG, safety factor = 170/130). This is a already a conservative calculation and the safety factor is only dangerously diminished for every degree warmer. I'm sure ambient temperature is more than 27C during summer...

 

 

The only and last thing I want to say about the claimed temps of the mags is that the people don't actually KNOW what temperature the MAG was at when it exploded. Just because it was in an environment where the ambient temp was "40C" you have no way of knowing the actual temp the MAG reached sitting in direct sunlight.

 

So who wants to go take one of those IR temp gauges, put their mag in the sunlight, and wait for it to explode so we know what the real point of failure is?

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The only and last thing I want to say about the claimed temps of the mags is that the people don't actually KNOW what temperature the MAG was at when it exploded. Just because it was in an environment where the ambient temp was "40C" you have no way of knowing the actual temp the MAG reached sitting in direct sunlight.

 

So who wants to go take one of those IR temp gauges, put their mag in the sunlight, and wait for it to explode so we know what the real point of failure is?

 

with a WA mag next to it for control purposes.

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I think you're missing the point vicious. The fact that they could explode when exposed to sunlight on a hot summer day as opposed to aerosol cans and propane tanks calls for a trip to the drawing board. Furthurmore, I remain doubtful on the "escape channels" as claimed by WETTI.

 

It is silly for you to suggest that we as customers pay the manufacturer for the magazines and then conduct a destructive test on behalf of them. I wouldn't mind spending time if it was a non-destructive test, or the manufacturer provides me the magazines for the test if they are confident on the safety of their magazines. The latter would might as well be done by the manufacturer themselves.

 

You're right in deciding to say the last thing on mag temp, as I think there might not be more educated discussion coming from you.

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Not exponentially actually...volume is inversely proportianal to pressure; pV=nRT

 

If volume expands 3 fold, then pressure will be 1/3 of the original value.

 

I was thinking of the wrong equation... it's only my first year of chem...

 

 

 

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The only and last thing I want to say about the claimed temps of the mags is that the people don't actually KNOW what temperature the MAG was at when it exploded. Just because it was in an environment where the ambient temp was "40C" you have no way of knowing the actual temp the MAG reached sitting in direct sunlight.

 

So who wants to go take one of those IR temp gauges, put their mag in the sunlight, and wait for it to explode so we know what the real point of failure is?

FYI, mine exploded during the night in a bed room. There was no Sun's light at all that moment. My friend's mag exploded because he left his exposed to direct Sun 's light since then all members in my team have kept mag from direct Sun's light. I have never used CO2 with my BB guns.

Edited by Net Ronin

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with a WA mag next to it for control purposes.

A magazine of a different design and manufacturer hardly constitutes as control. Control should be a WE magazine under the shade exposed only to ambient temperature.

 

I'll also put into the mix that WE mags CAN actually be overfilled. Open up any Japanese gbb magazine and you'd find the fill valve to have some kind of tubular extension of sorts (roughly to half the length of the reservoir). This limits the amount of liquid pumped into the mag thereby limiting the possibility of it being over filled and reach destructive pressures. This tube is absent on the WE mag so as long as you jam that can of gas in the mag, its going to pump in fuel until its full to the brim. I believe installing this simple device should work in keeping mags from blowing up because other than exploding from excessive heat, all cases are similar in that they were just previously filled and possibly overfilled.

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....

So who wants to go take one of those IR temp gauges, put their mag in the sunlight, and wait for it to explode so we know what the real point of failure is?

 

WE should be doing this.

And they should have done this "long time ago".

 

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I'm sorry I'm relying on my pubic edumication and daylighting career for information here. And I will aimlessly attempt to back it up with a lot more uneducated reasoning. That I did not want to present needlessly in the first place. Figuring that a highly educated person as yourself would first consider and weigh an oppossing argument before dismissing it.

 

Every time you fill a mag with gas the actual volume within the mag changes

Wrong, you're actual volume remains the same since it's the total volume of the mag. In order to use your law we have to be dealing with a completely vapor state, which we are not. In our case we're dealing with both the liquid and gas state of propane. The specific volume of gas changes as the ratio of liquid vs. vapor propane changes due to ambient temperature and discharge during use. However, the liquid does not affect the pressure since it has such a low boiling point at standard atmospheric pressure. Therefore, the pressure of propane is primarily determined by ambient temperature.

 

Some more uneducated reasoning...

At standard atmospheric pressure (0 PSIg) Propane boils at -44*F. Let's say we're able to fill our magazine at -44*F so it pure 100% propane. The volume of the mag hasn't changed has it? No it still holds the same amount of propane. Now we bring it up room temperature at 72*F. At which time the liquid propane boils off into a vapor it will begin to expand and compress within the mag until the pressure is capable of raising the boiling point above 72*F (Which will about 115 PSIg). The volume of propane hasn't changed has it? No, because it's still 100% propane. It is just that ratio of propane in liquid and vapor state has changed. Therefore, pressure is directly proportional to temperature.

 

I say it's the material and design of the mag. The plate on top of the mag under the "face seal" I believe is the pressure release valve. But even under room temperature this plate can still leak, which makes it worthless since we're wasting gas for no reason. Casting is a poor method for creating any form container that will be subjected to pressure especially, when it's material pot metal and as thin as the walls are. Look at refrigeration pipes they're only 1/8" thick walls yet some systems have pressures in the 300-400PSIg range and are constantly subjected to direct sunlight and high ambient temperatures.

Edited by freq88

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Does anybody know how the brass cylinder that the Nozzle goes in, can be taken out? I want to install the CO2 nozzle and i am afraid that i will damage my gun...

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Do you guys know of any quick way of lowering the FPS of the gun?

 

As of the moment the Steel Nozzle Assembly Kit - A from airsoft buddy (300fps version) is out of stock and looks like it will be for quite awhile.

 

Any temporary solutions until I the nozzle goes back in stock? Planning to get it down to 400fps if possible, or anything below 450, I will be a happy camper

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I think you're missing the point vicious. The fact that they could explode when exposed to sunlight on a hot summer day as opposed to aerosol cans and propane tanks calls for a trip to the drawing board. Furthurmore, I remain doubtful on the "escape channels" as claimed by WETTI.

 

It is silly for you to suggest that we as customers pay the manufacturer for the magazines and then conduct a destructive test on behalf of them. I wouldn't mind spending time if it was a non-destructive test, or the manufacturer provides me the magazines for the test if they are confident on the safety of their magazines. The latter would might as well be done by the manufacturer themselves.

 

You're right in deciding to say the last thing on mag temp, as I think there might not be more educated discussion coming from you.

 

Pls kindly do a bit more research before making any baseless "I remain doubtful" assumption of what I've stated. Do you think I'm so stupid as to making a false claim on a world renown forum? Have you completely disassemble one of our mags, or do you even own one?

 

The escape channel is located on the top of the mag. I cannot show you an illustrated pic of it yet because I'm currently at the U.S. Army Rangers' 5th RTB conducting an official demo of our platform. It is with pleasure that I should share with all of you that official funding aprroval had been secured at Fort Benning for purchasing our AWSS CO2 M4 platform as a simulation training tool for the U.S. Army.

 

Once again I want to clarify about our regular gas mags: Even though we do not believe that our mag has any design falults, but once we've received news that some mags had exploded during use (first incident several months ago), we've immediately started an in-depth examination/investigation of the design & construction of our mag. We've found no evidence whatsoever that would contribute to our mags to explode under normal use circumstances. But yet we've strengthened our mag's structure even more to account for user negligence.

 

Again, pls kindly DO NOT make baseless assumptions or accusations that WE, as a maunfacturer, did not address the issue. Me not saying anything here does not contribute the lack-of-action on our part. I'm only here as much as my schedule allows, and more often than not, I can barely keep up with this wonderful thread. My most sincere thanks to all of you who's had contributed & made positive criticism of our platform, but I could care less about those who's made baseless, vicious attacks of our products.

 

That is all I have to say.

 

WETTI

 

O...btw...no law suit would stick since our mags are not shipped filled with gas. The type of gas used by the end user is a rather subjective matter, not to mention user negligence in regard to storage. We're already stated that our mags should only use Green Gas or below, and the mags should not be exposed to DIRECT sunlight for an extended period of time. Furthermore, our mags should NEVER be stored with a full or even half charge of gas; they should be stored empty or with a just a 'puff' of gas to keep the seals tight & lubricated.

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That's good news. When can we expect to get our hands on the new strengthened propane mags?

 

Edit: Erm I did state that it is possible that the escape channels or pressure relieve device is/are not working as intended. Also, can you kindly elaborate on the intended function of the escape channel? I think the term is ambigous because it could also mean an escape channel for over flowing propane should the mag gets filled more than full? I'm sorry if my tone came off as vicious. Clearly wasn't my intention.

Edited by newcomer

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WETTI

 

O...btw...no law suit would stick since our mags are not shipped filled with gas. The type of gas used by the end user is a rather subjective matter, not to mention user negligence in regard to storage. We're already stated that our mags should only use Green Gas or below, and the mags should not be exposed to DIRECT sunlight for an extended period of time. Furthermore, our mags should NEVER be stored with a full or even half charge of gas; they should be stored empty or with a just a 'puff' of gas to keep the seals tight & lubricated.

 

 

That might be true, but a if a few more explode - and God forbid - one person is hurt, that will be the end of these guns (end of WE) in the states. Your product will be all over the news stateside and banned immediately.

 

One DROZD CO2 bb gun made the news and they were banned on eBay the next day. Then the feds made it REAL hard on Bakail - temporarily stopping importation completely. (and those werent "exploding")

 

All the distribution deals (evike etc) you have worked so hard to create will be gone in a second.

 

The liberals in the USA have a "hard on" for guns - toy guns, real guns, makes no difference. They want to stamp them ALL out. Just give them a reason to crusade againt you. Draw attention to yourself and I guarantee it will happen.

 

 

 

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Pls kindly do a bit more research before making any baseless "I remain doubtful" assumption of what I've stated. Do you think I'm so stupid as to making a false claim on a world renown forum? Have you completely disassemble one of our mags, or do you even own one?

 

The escape channel is located on the top of the mag. I cannot show you an illustrated pic of it yet because I'm currently at the U.S. Army Rangers' 5th RTB conducting an official demo of our platform. It is with pleasure that I should share with all of you that official funding aprroval had been secured at Fort Benning for purchasing our AWSS CO2 M4 platform as a simulation training tool for the U.S. Army.

 

Once again I want to clarify about our regular gas mags: Even though we do not believe that our mag has any design falults, but once we've received news that some mags had exploded during use (first incident several months ago), we've immediately started an in-depth examination/investigation of the design & construction of our mag. We've found no evidence whatsoever that would contribute to our mags to explode under normal use circumstances. But yet we've strengthened our mag's structure even more to account for user negligence.

 

Again, pls kindly DO NOT make baseless assumptions or accusations that WE, as a maunfacturer, did not address the issue. Me not saying anything here does not contribute the lack-of-action on our part. I'm only here as much as my schedule allows, and more often than not, I can barely keep up with this wonderful thread. My most sincere thanks to all of you who's had contributed & made positive criticism of our platform, but I could care less about those who's made baseless, vicious attacks of our products.

 

That is all I have to say.

 

WETTI

 

O...btw...no law suit would stick since our mags are not shipped filled with gas. The type of gas used by the end user is a rather subjective matter, not to mention user negligence in regard to storage. We're already stated that our mags should only use Green Gas or below, and the mags should not be exposed to DIRECT sunlight for an extended period of time. Furthermore, our mags should NEVER be stored with a full or even half charge of gas; they should be stored empty or with a just a 'puff' of gas to keep the seals tight & lubricated.

 

WETTI, I probably missed it, but were these instructions found anywhere in the manual...or perhaps even on the box the magazines came in? I'm afraid a person that doesn't frequent airsoft forums might not know.

 

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A magazine of a different design and manufacturer hardly constitutes as control. Control should be a WE magazine under the shade exposed only to ambient temperature.

 

I'll also put into the mix that WE mags CAN actually be overfilled. Open up any Japanese gbb magazine and you'd find the fill valve to have some kind of tubular extension of sorts (roughly to half the length of the reservoir). This limits the amount of liquid pumped into the mag thereby limiting the possibility of it being over filled and reach destructive pressures. This tube is absent on the WE mag so as long as you jam that can of gas in the mag, its going to pump in fuel until its full to the brim. I believe installing this simple device should work in keeping mags from blowing up because other than exploding from excessive heat, all cases are similar in that they were just previously filled and possibly overfilled.

 

That's good to know.

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Forgot to add...if escape channels are present in the design, why aren't they working? Isn't the purpose of escape channels prevention of exploding mags? Someone enlighten me.....

 

*edit* Oops. Newcomer asked the same thing.

Edited by redline

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@WETTI

 

Thanks for taking the time to post during what must be a very busy period for you.

 

The escape channel is located on the top of the mag. I cannot show you an illustrated pic of it yet

 

That might explain the slight bleed I get at the moment, I do however get a bleed from the top and bottom of the spine. I could also be filling the mags too full but to be honest I'm not sure how to measure this. It would be really helpful to understand exactly what should and shouldn't be expected of the WE M4 gas mag and the illustrated pic would be a useful start.

 

It is with pleasure that I should share with all of you that official funding aprroval had been secured at Fort Benning for purchasing our AWSS CO2 M4 platform as a simulation training tool for the U.S. Army.

 

Glad everything is going well, I am looking forward to further feedback! More importantly I am looking forward to testing CO2 myself :rolleyes:

 

Once again I want to clarify about our regular gas mags: Even though we do not believe that our mag has any design falults, but once we've received news that some mags had exploded during use (first incident several months ago), we've immediately started an in-depth examination/investigation of the design & construction of our mag. We've found no evidence whatsoever that would contribute to our mags to explode under normal use circumstances. But yet we've strengthened our mag's structure even more to account for user negligence.

 

Obviously as a community we aren't aware of the total number of magazines shipped or the actual failure rates or types of failure. It also appears that the magazines have no manufacturing tag so it would be difficult to know if for example they all came from the same batch. Some people have made huge assumptions as to the cause of the known incidents and this can and has led to heated and unconstructive debates and baseless comments.

 

It's only my opinion but I believe the community just want to be confident in the mags and if this means you have to substantiate your internal testing by providing detailed explanations then that may be a small price to pay in the long term.

 

My own confidence has been influenced by experience with the two magazines I have, and then rightly or wrongly by the few incidents described on various forums. The metal used has in my case proven to be very brittle, although it has not exploded. I for one would prefer the magazines to substantially exceed any intentional or unintentional user negligence I or the environment might throw at them. If this would cause a price increase due to the use of higher spec components then I wouldn't have a problem.

 

Having said all that this issue/discussion is not a major concern for me yet, I have nothing but smiles when I use my WE M4. I would appreciate some additional and official reassurance/guidance though.

 

Thanks again for all your community input, sorry for the long but hopefully constructive post.

Edited by Marky [UE]

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