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Lupus78

WE Gas Blow Back M4A1 Carbine

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I looked at a few AEG spool type nubs when I was putting in the new rubber but they all seemed a bit wide. That combined with the 2 inner bumps on the RA-Tech rubber made me stick with the stock nub.

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Hey guys, the bolt catch on mine is knackered so I'm going to get a new one. Is there any way to reduce the wear on the bolt catch? I wouldn't have really considered it a consumable part. :P

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How new is yours mate? WE made the first batches a bit meh, but later ones are all good.

 

A new WE one shouldn't fail on you.... Although 'shouldn't' never means 'won't' :P

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Morning everyone,

 

I'm starting to consider switching from the KWA LM4 to a WE system for a couple of reasons - Mainly, more guns available for one kinda mag, generally cheaper guns and parts, and easier availability of aftermarket bits and Co2 mags. I've been lurking this thread since day one, so I've got a pretty good idea of the WE's foibles. However, a couple of minor questions;

 

With WE's latest models, i.e, Gen 3(?) - Am I correct in thinking most stock issues are sorted and it'll run well for a decent period in stock condition, other than some experimenting with hop rubbers?

 

Steel trigger groups; I've established the CWI parts are the best option to go for, but they seem quite hard to track down - Is a steel trigger pack necessary, or will the stock WE set up last for a decent amount of time? (If it'll do somewhere close to 10k rounds before bits need replacing, I can live with that).

 

Co2 mags; Are the WE Co2 mags pretty decent? Do they give any major consistency issues (high powered first few rounds or anything?)

 

Getting one with a trademarked lower; AirsoftGlobal seems to be the only place I can find with trademarked lowers; Is there anywhere else, ideally in the UK that does the versions with markings?

 

Real steel bits; Am I correct in thinking the WE can be modded to take real uppers, as well as having R/S spec'd buffer tube/upper receiver threads?

 

Appreciate all the help, cheers!

 

 

*edit* Also, assuming R/S uppers can be modded to fit; Is there any reason a left handed upper wouldn't work? Seeing as I shoot rifles lefty, it'd be quite nice to have a proper left handed upper. Plus it'd baffle everyone.

Edited by hwagan

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I will try to answer your questions, but keep in mind I am a collector and plinker so I don't shoot my stuff much, but I do lurk and read alot of forums so I think I have a fairly good idea of things;

 

1. Yes, IMO that is correct. The new open bolt WE M4s are pretty nice out of the box. Not saying they won't break, but there should be nothing major to worry about right out of the box.

 

2. The general concensus that I have come up with is this; Run the stock internal parts for as long as they last. When they break, attempt to find new replacement stock parts. Repeat until new stock parts are no longer available. When that day comes, switch over to full steel internally to make sure it will work decently. CWI kits is the way to go.

 

3. I have a couple of WE CO2 magazines and they work fine for me, again see my leading comment of this post. As for FPS consistency, I cannot say, although I do have a chrono so I could find out for you.

 

4. Yearh, I got both my WE M4 CQBR and HK 416 with markings from AirsoftGlobal, I think they are one of the very few who have them. Other than that, Armed Forces in HK might have some (google AFC airsoft). UK retailers, no idea.

 

5. Yes, WEs can be modded for both RS uppers, lowers and barrels. Although IMO that is a bit extreme (requires machinary and work skills). I have replaceed almost everything on mine for RS parts except those three main components and the internals. Most are drop in fit, some needed minor mods and some parts ( can't recall just now ) did not fit at all (like 1 in 100).

 

 

No idea about left handed recievers, doub't WE have taken that into consideration for the design of their rifles.

 

Just my honest thoughts.

 

There is an abundance of information over on GasGuns Forums for RS WE builds if you want more info or ask more detailed questions.

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I will try to answer your questions, but keep in mind I am a collector and plinker so I don't shoot my stuff much, but I do lurk and read alot of forums so I think I have a fairly good idea of things;

 

1. Yes, IMO that is correct. The new open bolt WE M4s are pretty nice out of the box. Not saying they won't break, but there should be nothing major to worry about right out of the box.

 

2. The general concensus that I have come up with is this; Run the stock internal parts for as long as they last. When they break, attempt to find new replacement stock parts. Repeat until new stock parts are no longer available. When that day comes, switch over to full steel internally to make sure it will work decently. CWI kits is the way to go.

 

3. I have a couple of WE CO2 magazines and they work fine for me, again see my leading comment of this post. As for FPS consistency, I cannot say, although I do have a chrono so I could find out for you.

 

4. Yearh, I got both my WE M4 CQBR and HK 416 with markings from AirsoftGlobal, I think they are one of the very few who have them. Other than that, Armed Forces in HK might have some (google AFC airsoft). UK retailers, no idea.

 

5. Yes, WEs can be modded for both RS uppers, lowers and barrels. Although IMO that is a bit extreme (requires machinary and work skills). I have replaceed almost everything on mine for RS parts except those three main components and the internals. Most are drop in fit, some needed minor mods and some parts ( can't recall just now ) did not fit at all (like 1 in 100).

 

 

No idea about left handed recievers, doub't WE have taken that into consideration for the design of their rifles.

 

Just my honest thoughts.

 

There is an abundance of information over on GasGuns Forums for RS WE builds if you want more info or ask more detailed questions.

 

Thanks man, that's a lot of help - Am I right in thinking your WE Is the one with the 7" DD rail and match-looking barrel? If so, it's a damn nice looking build! :P

 

I've found AFC's website 'n all, but I'll probably end up going with AG - They've also got the trademarked lower as a separate part, as well as uppers and plenty of other spares so it seems like a good plan to pick up a few bits from them in one go.

 

As for Co2 mags, any chance you could Chrono the first few rounds from a fresh Co2 load? I've seen a few Co2 guns that'll give an extra 50-100FPS on the first few shots out of fresh capsules, just wondering if that applies to the WE.

 

Also, last question, and this might not be as easily answered - My local site bans Co2 weapons on the basis that if something in the gun fails, there's the potential for 800PSI of Co2 to get behind the BB - Is there any kind of failsafe in a WE Co2 mag, or something similar, that'll prevent the full PSI of Co2 getting behind the BB? If I can prove the gun physically can't put the full energy of Co2 into a shot, it'll mean I can use it at my local in the winter which would be nice.

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Yeah that was my first build of it, it has gone thru 4-5 makeovers since. To be honest that is the setup I liked the least, both in terms of looks and fit / functionality.

 

Sure, I will chrono a magazine of CO2 for you!

 

Can't really say. I doubt there is a failsafe good enough to prevent that sort of thing.

But the CO2 capsule is pierced and then gas goes into an intermediary expansion chamber to get even pressure and consistent shots, this is then let out of the main valve and the capsule fills up the intermediary chamber again. However there is no actual "air lock" between the CO2 capsule and the intermediary chamber.

 

So, IMO, the answer to that question would be no. I can't see how that would work or what kind of fail safe would prevent it from happening in case of catastrophic failure.

 

I think the way CO2 magazines work is that they have smaller holes in the valve and also pushes in the valve for a shorter duration of time and depresses it less so than a gas valve.

This helps keep the FPS low in comparison to the full powers of the CO2 capsules potentials.

But if the valve were to be stuck open full throttle, I don't think you actually get the full 850FPS due to the valve design, but it would be alot of power I would think.

 

Would be interesting to test to remove the reset knocker and just let a CO2 capsule expell some BBs at full force :D

Edited by NonEx

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It definitely looked quite unusual - I'm quite a fan of fluted barrels on AR's, don't usually see them much.

 

Anyhow, thanks for checking on the chrono - Much appreciated, I haven't heard of WE's doing the whole hot first few shots thing, but it'd be nice to confirm either way.

 

As for the Co2 mags, I might have to see if I can find an exploded diagram - If it'd have to take a catastrophic structural failure of the mag (which it's sounding like from your description) to unleash the full blast of Co2, that might be good enough for my local site - Probably won't be, but hey, a man can dream! :P 

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Real steel bits; Am I correct in thinking the WE can be modded to take real uppers, as well as having R/S spec'd buffer tube/upper receiver threads?

 

*edit* Also, assuming R/S uppers can be modded to fit; Is there any reason a left handed upper wouldn't work? Seeing as I shoot rifles lefty, it'd be quite nice to have a proper left handed upper. Plus it'd baffle everyone.

Real steel uppers can be made to fit, but, as you're in the UK, it's a bad idea. Even if modified, a real steel AR receiver carries its original classification in the eyes of the law. As the judgements in R v Clarke and R v Ashton set precedent, receivers are considered to be component parts of a firearm that carry the same classification as the whole gun would.

 

I leave it to your imagination regarding what the CPS would do....

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Hehehe, Im with you Hwagan. I dumped my LM4 like a bad habit a few months ago and switched back to the WE platform. Used the extra money to get myself a trademarked M16, slapped a RS A2 upper receiver on it and had myself a custom M16a2 for a while.

 

Ive since converted that one to an M727 (and possibly soon an M733)..... Then I went an bought another trademarked M16 cause you know, sometimes you just need a really big rifle. I havent regretted selling the Lm4 for even a second. At least when a WE has problems, I can determine whats wrong. My LM4 just stopped working and nobody could fix it. not even KWA. The only thing I do regret is not selling all the mags right away. Cause theyre still sitting around.

 

It was really irritating how there was almost nothing you could do with a KWA LM4. I dont consider different rails to be custom builds. There was no way for me to turn one into an M16, or anything interesting at all.

 

As far as trigger pack durability, I dont think that there are too many wearing problems on WE AR15 platform rifles. The only thing ive ever seen happen to the trigger mech on customer's guns, is that the hammer pin that holds the roller in will sometimes come out and get lost. So just put a dab of epoxy or cyanoacrylate over it so it never gets to loosen up.

 

Also, your WE will eventually break the loading nozzle. it happens. theyre cheap to replace, like $10. Buy a few of them to have as spares. I just got an aluminum one for mine so I dont have to think about it anymore.

 

Edit: Oh, and heres my current WE Rifle collection. the PDW is a new addition that I got from work. completely, irreparably busted. needed nearly everything externally and still needs entire new internals. So thats my current project. fixing that. Might sell it afterward to a friend that I wanna get into GBBRs. It only looks nice right now cause its got fresh paint. It was beat to hell before, having spent the past 3 years in a parts bin.

 

NAzktKw.jpg

 

Edited by Brigg
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Hehehe, Im with you Hwagan. I dumped my LM4 like a bad habit a few months ago and switched back to the WE platform. Used the extra money to get myself a trademarked M16, slapped a RS A2 upper receiver on it and had myself a custom M16a2 for a while.

 

Ive since converted that one to an M727 (and possibly soon an M733)..... Then I went an bought another trademarked M16 cause you know, sometimes you just need a really big rifle. I havent regretted selling the Lm4 for even a second. At least when a WE has problems, I can determine whats wrong. My LM4 just stopped working and nobody could fix it. not even KWA. The only thing I do regret is not selling all the mags right away. Cause theyre still sitting around.

 

It was really irritating how there was almost nothing you could do with a KWA LM4. I dont consider different rails to be custom builds. There was no way for me to turn one into an M16, or anything interesting at all.

 

As far as trigger pack durability, I dont think that there are too many wearing problems on WE AR15 platform rifles. The only thing ive ever seen happen to the trigger mech on customer's guns, is that the hammer pin that holds the roller in will sometimes come out and get lost. So just put a dab of epoxy or cyanoacrylate over it so it never gets to loosen up.

 

Also, your WE will eventually break the loading nozzle. it happens. theyre cheap to replace, like $10. Buy a few of them to have as spares. I just got an aluminum one for mine so I dont have to think about it anymore.

 

 

What exactly went wrong with your LM4? I've heard of people having feed issues and hop issues, but mine has really been flawless the time I've owned it; It's a shame, I still think it's a decent system, it just lacks the necessary support. 

 

So the trigger pack I'm guessing has seen some pretty decent improvements? I recall in the early parts of this thread there were a few issues, and with the bolt catch as well; I'm guessing these seem to have been rectified now? 

 

Nozzles I consider a consumable in GBBR's to be honest - In fact, I consider everything except the externals a consumable part, I'm comfortable with the fact GBBR's need parts replacing occasionally.

 

Anyhow, thanks for the info man, appreciate it - Nice collection as well, the M727 is particularly nice. Is modding an R/S upper particularly difficult? I'm not absolutely set on doing so, but it'd be nice to chuck as many real bits on it as possible eventually.

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Hwagan, you need to read my post further up the page again. Given what my contact at HMR&C has told me recently, you really want to steer clear of real deal upper receivers, modified or not.

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Hwagan, you need to read my post further up the page again. Given what my contact at HMR&C has told me recently, you really want to steer clear of real deal upper receivers, modified or not.

 

 

Fair point; I read it as "Bad idea, but sort of grey areaish.", but having just looked up some of the details, I will definitely be steering clear of R/S uppers.

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Hey, just did a chrono of my WE M4 CQBR with CO2 magazine, here are the results;

 

Weapon: WE/AFC M4 CQBR, stock internals (possibly NINE BALL hop-up rubber), MadBull Noveske KFH Amplifier Flash Hider
Magazine: WE CO2 magazine, MAGPUL PMAG RS outer shell
BBs: Blaster 6mm, 0.2g
Propellant: Daisy 12g CO2 cartridge
Ambient temperature/humidity: 25C, 34%
Chronograph: XCORETECH X3200

Rifle position: KFH amp. resting inside of chronograph funnel
Time between shots: ~2 seconds

 

Shot 01: 441.6 FPS
Shot 02: 441.0 FPS

Shot 03: 436.9 FPS

Shot 04: 433.4 FPS

Shot 05: 430.2 FPS

Shot 06: 426.5 FPS
Shot 07: 422.6 FPS
Shot 08: 422.4 FPS
Shot 09: 415.2 FPS
Shot 10: 413.8 FPS
Shot 11: 410.4 FPS
Shot 12: 408.6 FPS
Shot 13: 405.5 FPS
Shot 14: 404.6 FPS
Shot 15: 404.5 FPS
Shot 16: 395.7 FPS
Shot 17: 394.4 FPS
Shot 18: 390.3 FPS
Shot 19: 384.3 FPS
Shot 20: 389.2 FPS
Shot 21: 382.7 FPS
Shot 22: 379.6 FPS
Shot 23: 376.4 FPS
Shot 24: 373.0 FPS
Shot 25: 368.0 FPS
Shot 26: 364.7 FPS
Shot 27: 362.0 FPS
Shot 28: 359.9 FPS
Shot 29: 333.8 FPS

 

Total FPS: 11567.8
Max FPS: 441.6
Min FPS: 333.8
Average FPS: 398.9

 

 

Kind of what I was expecting to happen. First 2-3 shots strong and fairly consistent and then a constant FPS drop from there. Last 8 shots or so felt noticably weaker.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Edited by NonEx
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Is that a fair/average representation of FPS drop on the WE?

Any data on how much/if any FPS re-gain and over what time frame? Ie leave it 10 seconds between shot 29 and 30, would there be FPS Gain? Would it level out?

Does the use of an NPAS to say keep the FPS 350 and below improve shot to shot consistency? And in anyway avoid FPS drop? I just haven't seen this kind of drop with my KJW M4 (only drawing loose comparison as different systems and different gases). Lots of Qs i know but like Hwagen I'm looking to change platforms for more options etc

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I am fairly certain that a longer pause in between shots would give better FPS and possibly more consistent FPS.

 

After I shot the 29 BB's I packed up the chrono stuff and then 5-10 minutes later fired whatever was left in the CO2 cartridge and it seemed to have recovered somewhat by that time.

I could try with 5-10 seconds between shots as well if that would be interesting. Or any other pattern you want to check out.

 

The reason why I mentioned the first 2-3 shots specifically is that, in my mind, those are "overpressurized" shots, ie. when the CO2 cartridge or gas magazine is filled to the brim those shots will always come out "hot", and then after that you see the "true" FPS of the weapon. That's just my own theory though, nothing scientific...

 

This type of FPS drop behavious is in my experience normal during chronographing with only a few seconds in between shots. Have not seen any of my GBBs or GBBRs deviate from that pattern.

 

Don't have NPAS in the rifle so can't say, but regardless of limitation of FPS by NPAS like device the cool-down and thus subsequent FPS drop would still be a factor.

 

I also have a WE HK 416 rifle and a WE AK 74UN that I can also chrono for comparison, but I am pretty sure the pattern would be similar.

 

The KJW is infamous for being very reliable and consistent so I believe it is "one of a kind" in that respect. The gas system in the KJW M4 has been praised to infinity almost.

Edited by NonEx

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Thanks for the response! Very informative! In the first instance it's the WE 416 I'm interested in so any data you have or obtain or think is interesting/useful to potential buyers is greatly appreciated. I'm slowly working my way through the thread but info is often times scattered throughout several pages!

The KJW is great, wont be letting it go, just want a change/new challenge and I'm hearing/reading good things about WE these days, love their new pistol releases and their QC and finishing work is improving all the time. All that and they seem comitted to constant improvements and have good 3rd party support, I could rant on about stuff you already know! :)

 

Only think I'm slightly concerned about on the 416 is the paint finish which I read is not great/could do better. If it was awful I could always look to have it re-finished though UK options or that are limited, based on my small amount of research, but not none existent.

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The HK 416 I have is the WE/AFC version with markings and "better" finish. But I did notice that the finish of the HK416 was more easily scratched and marked than my WE/AFC M4 CQBR, which is kind of a shame. It's not like it's falling off on it's own, but light use has resulted in some wear already.

 

Also a thing I must say about my HK 416 is that right when I got it I converted it down to a 10.5" barrel. Problem is my dremmel died halvway through my attempts at crowning the barrel so I don't think it's optimal.

 

But I do have a spare open bolt kit so I can make it a full lenght HK 416 again if I want (don't really want to).

 

I think the FPS data on my cut barrel should be alright, probably just accuracy that is affected if anything. I do not have any gas M4 magazines though, CO2 only.

Edited by NonEx

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I thinking of building one of these from scratch in order to save some cash if I can:

 

Would this be all the internalls I need apart from the buffer? http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/we-open-chamber-conversion-kit-for-m4a1-gbb-23399.html

 

Then the trouble is getting a receiver for it, anyone know where to get one that isn't ridiculously expensive?

 

I also want to get an ACE stock for it, but it would seem no-one makes it for the WE GBBR. Would a RS ACE stock work?

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Hey, just did a chrono of my WE M4 CQBR with CO2 magazine, here are the results;

 

Weapon: WE/AFC M4 CQBR, stock internals (possibly NINE BALL hop-up rubber), MadBull Noveske KFH Amplifier Flash Hider

Magazine: WE CO2 magazine, MAGPUL PMAG RS outer shell

BBs: Blaster 6mm, 0.2g

Propellant: Daisy 12g CO2 cartridge

Ambient temperature/humidity: 25C, 34%

Chronograph: XCORETECH X3200

Rifle position: KFH amp. resting inside of chronograph funnel

Time between shots: ~2 seconds

 

 

 

Kind of what I was expecting to happen. First 2-3 shots strong and fairly consistent and then a constant FPS drop from there. Last 8 shots or so felt noticably weaker.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Thanks man, really helpful and useful info there! That's quite similar to what I was expecting as well, although it's good to see the first few rounds aren't insanely high - I was worried there'd be a 30-40FPS difference or thereabouts.

 

 

 

Also a thing I must say about my HK 416 is that right when I got it I converted it down to a 10.5" barrel. Problem is my dremmel died halvway through my attempts at crowning the barrel so I don't think it's optimal.

 

 

For what it's worth, I'm yet to see any evidence crowning affects a barrel in anything other than an exceptionally highly tuned sniper rifle; In fact, quite the opposite. The barrel in my LM4 is cut down roughly with a hacksaw, and crowned with the pointy end of a Ka-bar. It looks an utter mess, but there's no burring or damage on the bore itself, and FPS/accuracy/consistency has suffered no ill effects.

 

I thinking of building one of these from scratch in order to save some cash if I can:

 

Would this be all the internalls I need apart from the buffer? http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/we-open-chamber-conversion-kit-for-m4a1-gbb-23399.html

 

Then the trouble is getting a receiver for it, anyone know where to get one that isn't ridiculously expensive?

 

I also want to get an ACE stock for it, but it would seem no-one makes it for the WE GBBR. Would a RS ACE stock work?

 

An R/S ACE stock should work; R/S buffer tubes are compatible, so there's no reason why not.

 

As for building it from scratch, I was considering the same thing myself - Problem is, as well as the receiver you'll need all the receiver furniture, buffer parts, receiver pins, and all sorts of other bits - It'll be a hassle, and it's not likely to work out significantly cheaper. 

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Well, the thing is that I'll be replacing the stock, pistol grip and front end regardless, so I thought it'd end up being a tiny bit cheaper. The main issue is getting the receiver, hell, RS receivers seem cheaper than what's available. 

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