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WE Gas Blow Back M4A1 Carbine


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Eliminator: Try rotating the nozzle so from the magazine end (bottom) you can see the floating valve.

 

I thought about the trigger pack, but whats the point, if the hammer is $4, sear is $3? I just want it to work damn it!

 

TSC or one of the aftermarket parts companies looked like they were going to make a hardened steel sear and hammer. Not sure if that is still in the works. I hope it is as I wouldn't mind having a more robust hammer on the trigger pack.

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Hehehe, Im with you Hwagan. I dumped my LM4 like a bad habit a few months ago and switched back to the WE platform. Used the extra money to get myself a trademarked M16, slapped a RS A2 upper receiver

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TSC or one of the aftermarket parts companies looked like they were going to make a hardened steel sear and hammer. Not sure if that is still in the works. I hope it is as I wouldn't mind having a more robust hammer on the trigger pack.

 

 

It would sure be more useful than "faux ant rotation pins".

 

 

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@ NetRonin:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk152/s...ymk18mod0-1.jpg

 

Nice one! You'd need an m16A1 grip and LR for it to be 100% but it's cool anyway. What Aimpoint is this? I heard the Recoil eats pretty much all replica APs for breakfast...

Thanks. It is G&P. It works just fine. However, I met one guy at local airsoft field. He had G&P aimpoint on his WA. His Aimpoint did not work well. It kept turning on/off all the time during shooting. My other two friends of mine have G&P aimpoint on their WE but have never had any problem either. We use them for skirmish almost every week. Had some minor problems before but now they work really fine. Edited by Net Ronin
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you guys sure about that $500 price tag... I heard it's more towards the low 400's... o well...

 

It is actually a pretty good price, I asked and he said it was:

 

it's USD499.00/set (upper & lower receivers)

 

- 100% CNC from single billet of T-7075 aircraft aluminum

- hard anodized finish as per RS rifles

 

-Chan Maco

 

This is the same as a prime reciever for a G&P/WA, but this is a custom 20 piece build!

If i had the money and a WE M4, neither of which I have, I would definitely buy it.

 

Sometimes I feel I shouldn't be talking since I probably will never buy this...

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TSC or one of the aftermarket parts companies looked like they were going to make a hardened steel sear and hammer. Not sure if that is still in the works. I hope it is as I wouldn't mind having a more robust hammer on the trigger pack.

 

+1

 

We don't need new bodies by now, we need steel parts !

 

More peoples experiments trigger group issues every day, the trigger parts are made of pot metal, here is what we really need:

 

-steel #54

-steel #57

-steel hammer

-redesigned steel #59

-stronger firing pin's spring

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chrome plated barrel available @ AB

long / short version, $29 each

 

 

Just bought one 1 minute ago!

 

Well,.....today was the day I have been waiting for - for MONTHS!

 

ITS SUMMER! We have 90 degree temps here in New England.

 

And gawd damn - this thing fires flawlessly.

 

Mag after mag - ZERO venting - not one hiccup - just blazing ROF and hard kick.

 

I knew it - if this thing was working as good as it did in the winter, I knew it was going to be a beast come summer.

 

Now if I can only get the accuracy in the ballpark. Well see once the new inner barrel and redisgned hopup get here.

 

 

 

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Well I tested a V3 M4A1 yesterday (textured receiver, no spare inner barrel, no M4 tool). Hop up is less extreme, but found a few issues:

 

- The initial cocking was enough to cock the hammer, but not enough to return the firing pin. Same issue as my V1, but not as the V2.

 

- Hop was hooking right after 30 metres, similar to the V2s I have tested.

 

- Hop up rubber ring was cracked already after <2000 rounds. It was cracked at the stress points. The V1 rubber didn't break like this.

 

- The rubber bucking was too tight, causing BBs to jam into the barrel occassionally, and not firing then next BB goes into the chamber and the nozzle breaks the BB.

 

- It was doing exactly what the V1 and V2s were doing on auto, the rounds refused to feed after prolonged auto fire. The Rubber bucking shrunk, seizing the nozzle and preventing it from feeding the next round.

 

- Over oiled, probably to account for the tight rubber bucking.

 

 

The main problem in all 3 versions is still the breech barrel rubber bucking. Because of the design of the WE, it has to be tight enough to prevent BBs falling out of the barrel but loose enough not to freeze up on auto or to cause a crush BB. And because its rubber, the problem with a tight bucking is that it also causes hooking or inconsistent hop. A problem that KSCs and WA pistols have.

Edited by 3vi1-D4n
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The main problem in all 3 versions is still the breech barrel rubber bucking. Because of the design of the WE, it has to be tight enough to prevent BBs falling out of the barrel but loose enough not to freeze up on auto or to cause a crush BB. And because its rubber, the problem with a tight bucking is that it also causes hooking or inconsistent hop. A problem that KSCs and WA pistols have.

 

 

This is a problem for ALL gbb guns/rifles.

 

The hop up rubber (silicone material whatever) and not the rubber BB chamber is what stops the bb from rolling out of the barrel. Ultimately.

 

All that the 1st, black rubber, bb chamber does is slow the bb down really - and provide a seal around the nozzle. Thats it.

 

The hopup has to be switched "on" enough to stop the bb. And usually its enough to 'overhop' as a result.

 

If you dial it back manually by turning 'off' the hop, or modding the rubber so there is less hop affect, the bb's roll out of the barrel and you also get misfeeds. You cant win.

 

I spent almost $2,000 dollars on a Shoei MP44 before I made this realization - I realized it was >never< going to fire like an AEG. Ever.

 

BTW, 'hooking' is always a sign of a dirt, 'greezy' inner barrel.

 

CO2 should run cleaner.

 

 

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The hop up rubber (silicone material whatever) and not the rubber BB chamber is what stops the bb from rolling out of the barrel. Ultimately.

 

All that the 1st, black rubber, bb chamber does is slow the bb down really - and provide a seal around the nozzle. Thats it.

 

Rottenotto:

 

A matter of perspective but more interpretation of what is. It depends on which gun you are talking about.

 

Take a KSC hardkick system and attempt to file away at the Bucking to widen the constriction, on hop level suitable for a 0.25g, the BBs still roll out of the barrel. In fact most times it won't fire if its a hardkick or a magna blowback.

 

WHY? Its because that bucking constriction does a few things:

- Prevents BBs from being flung past the hop by sheer momentum of the bolt/slide

- Holds the BB in place before the hop

- Engages the magna/hardkick valve, which lets the gas to the breech to propell the BB.

 

An ideal system is to have ramps to pull the round up from the magazine to slow down the momentum transferred to the BB as it enters the breech. But say on the WA the ramp is there but the BBs still need to be held by the constricted rubber bucking for the magna blowback valve to work.

 

The IDEAL system is marui. It has both a BB Ramp and a soft hop up to stop the BBs rolling out of the barrel even at the lowest hop, but the rubber bucking is unrestrictive to the BB, and serves ONLY to seal the gas system. This is only possible because it uses a negative pressure system.

 

The problem with the constricted bucking shows when you turn the hop up off, and fire. The gun will hook erratically. This is because as the gun is fired out one side of the bucking will "grip" onto the BB more than the other so it causes a spin in a particular direction, which becomes a hopping effect. If you combine the hop spin from the main hop, it will create different directions of spin and hence BBs will curve in different directions.

 

Marui systems don't hook, unless dirty. WA, KSC systems don't hook when well oiled so the BB doesn't grip the bucking, but hop levels becomes erratic.

 

A modified KSC system 7 or the non-hardkick with its hop bucking constriction expanded run into the risk of BBs dropping out of barrel, but when used with >0.25g and hop is set, the accuracy can be very amazing.

Edited by 3vi1-D4n
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I appreciate your input D4n.

 

I read your post twice to be sure I got all your points.

 

Ill just share with you my own experience for what its worth concerning part #117, the rubber bb chamber.

 

These types of chambers - especially ones with "ribs" - are a relatively new addition to GBB rifles.

 

And they are so misunderstood.

 

Were they invented yesterday? No, but it wasnt that long ago that they didnt exist at all in GBB rifles like Escort Shoeis.

 

My first SHOEI MP44 wasnt just a dog - it was a dog with fleas.

 

It didnt have a rubber bb chamber (breech rubber) behind the hopup like we are talking about. The heavy brass bolt just slammed the bb down the inner barrel - depending on the hop up turned "on" to stop it. Even though it WAY overhopped the bb's.

 

I thought, "This sucks - what a horrible design!"

 

Then a 'gen 2' MP44 was released with a new rubber chamber. I THOUGHT that the chambers purpose was to catch the bb......no more depending on the hopup to stop it from rolling out the barrel.

I took ANOTHER $1,600.00 dollars invested in a second MP44. My problems would be solved.

 

To my astonishment and disappointment when I got it, this chamber did nothing but seal the nozzle. The bb was STILL pushed past this new chamber and stopped again on the hop up. If you turned the hop 'down' or 'off' to get the bb to fly level, the bb's would then roll out the barrel.

 

The rubber chamber is a seal. And thats all it does - it does NOT serve as a "bb catch"......part #117 is your seal for the nozzle so the gas jet goes down the barrel.

 

Just load a bb by dropping the bolt - then draw the bolt back and see. The bb will be against the hop up nub.

 

As a sort of "side effect" it slows the bb down as it is pushed by the loading nozzle - but this is NOT its primary function IN THIS PARTICLAUR GAS BLOWBACK DESIGN.

 

It is a modifled Escort - and the problem with BOTH systems - is this problem we are discussing. I spent MONTHS of my life trying to fix this on my SHOEIS.

 

I was >never< able to sort it out with the MP44 and Im getting the sickening feeling I wont be able to again. "The house is built on a poor foundation". The basic design while very good in most ways, is also the problem.

 

I can tell you this gen 2 hopup will NOT be the last revision - it was a quick makeshift improvement that will end up having as many new problems as it fixed. A COMPLETELY NEW hopup is needed for this gun.

 

And even then, I doubt it will ever adress the whole "bb being pushed too hard by the heavy brass nozzle/hop set too aggressive to stop it" problem.

 

All I can hope for is the new Co2 system - less liquid and grease being flung into the hop area and inner barrel. This SHOULD improve shot to shot consitency dramatically.

 

We'll see.

 

 

PS...

TOTALLY sorry for the long post. I was having a moment.

Edited by rottenotto
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LOL.

 

Its ok. I get my moment when I talk about a particular CA249 or the Tanaka M24, or a particular Maruzen P99.

 

There is a fix for the M4, reasons for the fix may take too long to explain. I had explained it down at page 40 something already and its a dremel + superglue fix.

 

But basically, the principle of the solution is to decrease the surface friction of the constrictor you impart less spin on the BB and hence less likely you will get erratic hooking. One way is to have the constrictor ring made either as a spring loaded nylon nub or as a elastic but smooth outer constrictor ring separate from the bucking. The Buckings job is still to seal air from nozzle to the barrel and thats it.

Edited by 3vi1-D4n
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LOL. Thanks for understanding ; )

Gotcha on your fix and solutions.

 

Another way to resolve the issue of the seal imparting spin etc, is to MOVE THE HOP UP FORWARD ANOTHER INCH. Keep it away from the rubber chamber. Let the bb rest in a sort of "staging area" between the rubber chamber and hop nub. A 'Neutral Zone'.

 

Western Arms saw the same problem and they just moved the hop up chamber far enough forward - in fact on the other side of the Delta ring actually - so that the bb was neutral going into the hop.

 

WE-tech obviosuly wanted to keep the hop unit and adjuster in the "normal place" most airsoft users are comfortable with.

 

But its too close to the nozzle seal and they interact with eachother to some degree. Its crammed. And the adjustment wheel sucks anyway so maybe move it WE.

 

A new hopup is needed for teh WE, I believe that. AND GET RID OF THE GREEN SILICONE MATERIAL!

 

I dont know why WE is so stubbornly clinging to this gawd-awful hop material. At least TRY sometthing new and see what happens. Aftermarket are you listening?

Edited by rottenotto
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hey rottenotto.

 

have you had any issues with your bolt-catch, not catching so far?

 

Well, I installed the steel bolt catch, shortened the spring that sits behind the bolt catch but it still doesn't work properly.

 

 

btw, I vote Otto for future WE lead designer.

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My RS Magpul enhanced trigger guard arrived today and I am sad/surprised to say it doesn't fit. WETTI had mentioned in an earlier post that the RS Magpul enhanced trigger guard was used to get pin placement right. But the holes on my lower are out of position :( The front pin hole is also the wrong size but that could easily be resolved if the position was correct. Has anyone else managed to fit one of these parts?

Edited by Marky [UE]
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Just a short bit on #117 (rubber chamber doohickey). I manually chambered a bb and had the bolt close on full force. Then I disassembled the front bits to get to the barrel and I found that the bb was in fact sitting in #117, and not held back by the hop rubber. I've only really noticed bbs to roll out and slip when I inject my mags with some green gas to lube things up a bit, unfortunately part #117 included. But after a couple dozen shots of propane (or just wiping the barrel down with tissue paper, the rolling stops.

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Now I know this may not be entirely relevant but this whole 117 debate made me think of my Tanaka experiences.

 

When installing the BGS hop system we basically had the same problem. The BB getting stuck in the mouth of the rubber (@ effectively what is 117) and when it fired this was imparting unusual spin which varied depending on which part of the rubber was 'sticking' at the time prior to the BB hitting the hop which added its own spin.

 

This was causing erratic BB flight. Sometimes it jammed in there completely.

 

The cure was a long nozzle which placed the BB directly past this choke point and in place for the hop.

 

So I guess the same should apply.

 

Otto's suggestion of a longer 'gap' seems fair.

 

I assume the little plastic collar behind the nozzle is what currently determines the final nozzle position, and consequently the BB's 'chambered' point in relation to 117.

 

But I agree, there is a serious revision needed in the hop department and I hope that the latest version is a success.

Only time will tell.

Edited by The Chef
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My WE M4 was schredding BBs when I first used it "brandnew right out of the box".

 

I put in the stabilizer, cleaned and lubricated things, disassembled the barrel and put it all together again.

 

It was firing very good after that.

 

I let it unused for 3 days, now I shot it again and it's shredding BBs again, and velocity is low (120 fps, used to be > 400).

 

Anyone any idea what could cause this "bad behaviour"?

 

What kind of gas do "you all" use?

 

 

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