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WE Gas Blow Back M4A1 Carbine


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I saw mine getting slowly chewed up, but I took out the brass tube and sprayed a coat of teflon into the brass blowback chamber, and recentred the tube (a little filing was required to get it straight), and loctited it, seems to have worked fine till my floating valve disintegrated.

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My O-ring actually shredded to pieces. The impact of the blowback nozzle onto the aluminium tube actually has enough energy to shred the O-ring and to deform the end of the aluminium tube where it meets the steel bolt.

 

I have emailed WE that they really need to rethink the design of the aluminium tube as it shouldn't be able to deform like that. Also they need to think about the brass nozzle and floating valve as brass is soft and doesn't hold well to impacts. The floating valve normally on most GBBs don't break do they ? LOL

Edited by 3vi1-D4n
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My O-ring actually shredded to pieces. The impact of the blowback nozzle onto the aluminium tube actually has enough energy to shred the O-ring and to deform the end of the aluminium tube where it meets the steel bolt.

 

I have emailed WE that they really need to rethink the design of the aluminium tube as it shouldn't be able to deform like that. Also they need to think about the brass nozzle and floating valve as brass is soft and doesn't hold well to impacts. The floating valve normally on most GBBs don't break do they ? LOL

 

Can you clarify what aluminum tube you are talking about? The one that screws to the bolt carrier?

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Well this is interesting.....

 

http://airsoftbuddy.com/index_eproduct_vie...products_id=189

 

$5.00 for a 5 pack......

 

 

Just sent off an email for a quote on the 10 pack for 5.95....we'll see what happens.

 

 

Hi Boost

He informed me this morning in an email that those you reference (.99 cents each) were not the correct part, or "...are not suitable for use in the WE".

 

They are not selling them anymore.

 

Instead they have the correct original washer provided from the manufacturer, and are now available in 10 packs for $5.95.

 

A better value actually and the correct washer for the gun :)

 

 

 

 

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this is a bit depressing. ,

I was really psyching myself up to get one of these, but what with the disappointment I suffered with my G&GL85 (which, granted, eventually turned into a real gem of a gun, but it did take a lot of heart ache) and the ultimate failure that was the Star AW338, I'm really reconsidering whether to actually get one if they are proving to be so unreliable.

 

Now I am no stranger to gas guns, had plenty of pistols in my time and owned every Tanaka rifle known to man or beast. So I know the pitfalls, but the replacement of wearing moving parts really shouldn't need to happen on a weekly basis.

 

Are they really as unreliable as this thread appears to be making out, or is it just me seeing the negative?

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^ I believe that if you lube it and re-center the tube in the bolt carrier because it can get misaligned, this could help the problem with the o-ring.

 

 

Actually, left alone, it will always be an issue to some degree.

 

GBB guns are a matter of compromises. (I have my experience, mostly bad, with the Escort Shoeis).

 

For instance, the hops NEED to be set too high to "capture" the bb and keep it from rolling out the barrel. Heavy brass bolts and loading nozzles have too much momentum/inertia/force and will knock the bb past the hop unit and out the barrel.

 

My MP44 was a nightmare and would double shoot or blank fire like crazy.

 

Also in the case of the WE, there needs to be "slop" engineered into the valve assemby and op-rod. The reason is the cooldown effect and the metal parts contracting when cooled.

 

If the metal parts were machined or engineered to be "precise" with precise tolerances, they would instantly lock up with the "cool down effect" of the gas. They need slop.

 

So,.....again,.......compromises.

 

The slop issue brings us to the problem of the washer wearing out. There are two reasons why that I see.

 

The first is that the washer provides CUSHION as well as sealing when the bolt slams forward. If you look down the hop tube you will see the machined area where the inner diameter is reduced. this is a sealing area and a place for the bolt to stop.

 

Have you ever fired the gun with out this #122 washer? Its ugly. LOUD metal on metal clacking.

 

This is stressing the washer - no way around it.

The second are that is killing the washer CAN be fixed - the rear opening of the brass cyliner tube.

 

The valve assembly, and washer leave the cylinder. The "slop" of the valve allows side to side movement and consequently do not re-enter the tube "cleanly".

 

The factory cuts a chamfered edge on the tube but it isnt enough.

 

What I did was take a tiny ball peen hammer and place it at the opening. With another larger hammer I gently tapped. This flared the opening slightly.

 

I then polished the brass opening to glass like smoothness with 2000 grit wetsand paper.

 

The net effect was a "funnel" that catches the valve and #122 washer, no matter how out of alignment it gets.

 

The washer is smoothly funneled into the cylinder with no catching on the edges - no tearing.

 

I would suspect that my next new washer from William will last LOTS longer

 

VERY SORRY for the long post guys - I will do a pictorial post when I get time. I am getting this gun DIALED in! Next is the hopup.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Actually, left alone, it will always be an issue to some degree.

 

GBB guns are a matter of compromises. (I have my experience, mostly bad, with the Escort Shoeis).

 

For instance, the hops NEED to be set too high to "capture" the bb and keep it from rolling out the barrel. Heavy brass bolts and loading nozzles have too much momentum/inertia/force and will knock the bb past the hop unit and out the barrel.

 

My MP44 was a nightmare and would double shoot or blank fire like crazy.

 

Also in the case of the WE, there needs to be "slop" engineered into the valve assemby and op-rod. The reason is the cooldown effect and the metal parts contracting when cooled.

 

If the metal parts were machined or engineered to be "precise" with precise tolerances, they would instantly lock up with the "cool down effect" of the gas. They need slop.

 

So,.....again,.......compromises.

 

The slop issue brings us to the problem of the washer wearing out. There are two reasons why that I see.

 

The first is that the washer provides CUSHION as well as sealing when the bolt slams forward. If you look down the hop tube you will see the machined area where the inner diameter is reduced. this is a sealing area and a place for the bolt to stop.

 

Have you ever fired the gun with out this #122 washer? Its ugly. LOUD metal on metal clacking.

 

This is stressing the washer - no way around it.

The second are that is killing the washer CAN be fixed - the rear opening of the brass cyliner tube.

 

The valve assembly, and washer leave the cylinder. The "slop" of the valve allows side to side movement and consequently do not re-enter the tube "cleanly".

 

The factory cuts a chamfered edge on the tube but it isnt enough.

 

What I did was take a tiny ball peen hammer and place it at the opening. With another larger hammer I gently tapped. This flared the opening slightly.

 

I then polished the brass opening to glass like smoothness with 2000 grit wetsand paper.

 

The net effect was a "funnel" that catches the valve and #122 washer, no matter how out of alignment it gets.

 

The washer is smoothly funneled into the cylinder with no catching on the edges - no tearing.

 

I would suspect that my next new washer from William will last LOTS longer

 

VERY SORRY for the long post guys - I will do a pictorial post when I get time. I am getting this gun DIALED in! Next is the hopup.

 

Keep us updated. I'm going to have to see if I can machine something to work. I was thinking that if that brass tube was longer so that the plunger never left it, you wouldn't have to worry about it being misaligned. Obviously the gas needs to vent out of the tube after the bolt is thrown back. I'm thinking this is why they didn't extend the tube further in the first place. Maybe if the tube was extended and it had venting ports to let the gas out before returning, the gas wouldn't be able to escape as fast as if the plunger completely exited the tube. If there was still pressure in the tube, it would probably decrease ROF. Another thing to consider would be to use a larger diameter rod that screws into the loading nozzle. This should keep the loading nozzle straighter as it is sliding. Also, as someone mentioned before...the o-ring that gets crushed at the end of the bolt carrier where the loading nozzle assembly screws to the bolt carrier doesn't crush evenly. This certainly doesn't help the alignment of the loading nozzle. The o-ring needs to be there to take up the shock so the vibration doesn't loosen the screw in the back...

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Are they really as unreliable as this thread appears to be making out, or is it just me seeing the negative?

 

Chef,

 

I have owned a pair of SHOEI GBB rifles (MP44) and a Sun Project M4. The time that I owned each were the daarkest days of my airsoft hobby. Each were "needy" paperweights that in the end NEVER performed well. No matter HOW MUCH money and time I put into them.

 

Let me say straight away, the WE M4 - right out of the box - simply SLAYS my old SHOEI MP44 and SP M4A1.

 

The WE actually fires a bb every shot, has a sharper, far more realistic kick then either the MP44 or SP, is a simpler design, and costs a FRACTION of what I wasted on those other guns.

 

The Western Arms M4 is an abortion. I wouldnt touch that rifle with a 10 foot pole. Too reminiscent of my dark SHOEI days, where I was both depressed and pennyless, - stuck with a $2,000 dollar paperweight.

 

Until I run across a problem with this gun that I cant fix, I will support it bitterly. Not only is it a GREAT platform to build off of, it is the best.

 

 

 

 

Keep us updated. I'm going to have to see if I can machine something to work. I was thinking that if that brass tube was longer so that the plunger never left it, you wouldn't have to worry about it being misaligned. Obviously the gas needs to vent out of the tube after the bolt is thrown back. I'm thinking this is why they didn't extend the tube further in the first place. Maybe if the tube was extended and it had venting ports to let the gas out before returning, the gas wouldn't be able to escape as fast as if the plunger completely exited the tube. If there was still pressure in the tube, it would probably decrease ROF. Another thing to consider would be to use a larger diameter rod that screws into the loading nozzle. This should keep the loading nozzle straighter as it is sliding. Also, as someone mentioned before...the o-ring that gets crushed at the end of the bolt carrier where the loading nozzle assembly screws to the bolt carrier doesn't crush evenly. This certainly doesn't help the alignment of the loading nozzle. The o-ring needs to be there to take up the shock so the vibration doesn't loosen the screw in the back...

 

GREAT ideas boost! I really appreciate your input. Collectively here we can improve and refine the WE.

 

As for making the tube longer, like the Escort system it needs total "pressure drop" at the back of the stroke. So it has to be that length (the seal has to leave the cylinder.)

 

My mod of flaring the opening and polishing it smooth is going to solve the shredding issue - Im positive. I cant wait to get a new washer and see how long it goes.

 

'Funnel effect' for the win.

 

What I would like to see aftermarket?

-Improved cylinder with my flared opening and teflon inner coating.

-Teflon coated op-rod (silver rod that is the center of the valve)

-Enhanced #122 washer. Perhaps a quad-ring with double lip sealing.

 

 

Other thoughts is different materials for the valve assembly that arent as reactive to cool down - plastics wont contract in the cold. Just an area of thought.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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GREAT ideas boost! I really appreciate your input. Collectively here we can improve and refine the WE.

 

As for making the tube longer, like the Escort system it needs total "pressure drop" at the back of the stroke. So it has to be that length (the seal has to leave the cylinder.)

 

My mod of flaring the opening and polishing it smooth is going to solve the shredding issue - Im positive. I cant wait to get a new washer and see how long it goes.

 

'Funnel effect' for the win.

 

What I would like to see aftermarket?

-Improved cylinder with my flared opening and teflon inner coating.

-Teflon coated op-rod (silver rod that is the center of the valve)

-Enhanced #122 washer. Perhaps a quad-ring with double lip sealing.

 

 

Other thoughts is different materials for the valve assembly that arent as reactive to cool down - plastics wont contract in the cold. Just an area of thought.

 

I guess it depends on the plastic but usually when plastic gets cold it gets brittle. No fun there.

 

 

I have to take apart my lower receiver because the firing pin isn't resetting when the hammer locks back. I never had this problem before so I'm interested to see why all of a sudden this is happening. I have a feeling that the nub on the hammer that lifts the disconnector is wearing away. If this is the case, I'd like to see a steel aftermarket hammer.

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HOLY *suitcase*! THAT GRIP IS SICK! How does it feel compared with the g26 grip?

 

I'm assuming you're talking about the Command Arms G27? I've never handled one before, but the UPG16 comes with 3 sets of interchangeable rubber front and backstraps. One of the front straps has 3 finger grooves, one has just a single bump like a standard A2 grip, and the one I'm using has none. The backstraps are simply different in size.

 

 

 

For instance, the hops NEED to be set too high to "capture" the bb and keep it from rolling out the barrel. Heavy brass bolts and loading nozzles have too much momentum/inertia/force and will knock the bb past the hop unit and out the barrel.

 

Perhaps it's true with the WE; I don't know because I haven't tinkered with it, but most GBB's have rubber chambers in addition to the hop-up that can capture the bb so to speak, so in general too high of a hop-up is not necessary for most properly designed GBB's. I mean this is essentially how GBB's worked before hop-up was invented... they had to stop the bb's somehow.

 

 

 

Also in the case of the WE, there needs to be "slop" engineered into the valve assemby and op-rod. The reason is the cooldown effect and the metal parts contracting when cooled.

 

If the metal parts were machined or engineered to be "precise" with precise tolerances, they would instantly lock up with the "cool down effect" of the gas. They need slop.

 

I have to say that your concern about thermal expansion, or more appropriately for this case contraction, is wildly overblown. For steel the thermal expansion coefficient is about 10^-5 in/K. The value for brass is the same order of magnitude. This means for temperature fluctuations on the order of several tens of degrees K up to maybe a maximum of 100K which is more than sufficient when talking about GBB's (remember that water goes from ice to boiling in a range of 40K), a length difference of maybe only on the order of 10^-4 and at most 10^-3 inches would result. Which is more precision than WE probably use in manufacturing these GBB's. Considering the price of them I doubt any precision better than 1/1000 or maybe 1/100 of an inch is used. Even then such a temperature fluctuation is generous considering that the gas has already expanded quite a bit while it has traveled to inside the innards of the bolt assembly. The thermal contraction is negligible for purposes of GBB's.

 

 

 

The valve assembly, and washer leave the cylinder. The "slop" of the valve allows side to side movement and consequently do not re-enter the tube "cleanly".

The factory cuts a chamfered edge on the tube but it isnt enough.

What I did was take a tiny ball peen hammer and place it at the opening. With another larger hammer I gently tapped. This flared the opening slightly.

I then polished the brass opening to glass like smoothness with 2000 grit wetsand paper.

The net effect was a "funnel" that catches the valve and #122 washer, no matter how out of alignment it gets.

The washer is smoothly funneled into the cylinder with no catching on the edges - no tearing.

I would suspect that my next new washer from William will last LOTS longer

 

I'm not sure what "slop" you're referring to here, but part no.122 is pretty solidly fixated to the bolt assembly itself and suffers from no excess sideways movements alone. So assuming at the beginning of the blowback cycle that it is properly aligned, any side-to-side motions resulting in misalignment would either result in the bolt itself, the brass chamber, or both moving side to side. The brass chamber is pretty solidly mounted to the frame, so we can consider the bolt. However, I honestly believe the bolt doesn't have enough slack in the receiver to be explicitly causing the damage to no. 122. It could be possible that your brass chamber is slightly misaligned to start with. My opinion is that the part is simply made too thin or is made of poor quality material, or both, to account for the tearing. The nature of the part requires that it be at least very slightly larger than the brass chamber to ensure a good seal, so some amount of "collision" so to speak, is probably unavoidable and actually desirable, only with the chamfered portion of course.

 

 

 

Another thing to consider would be to use a larger diameter rod that screws into the loading nozzle. This should keep the loading nozzle straighter as it is sliding. Also, as someone mentioned before...the o-ring that gets crushed at the end of the bolt carrier where the loading nozzle assembly screws to the bolt carrier doesn't crush evenly. This certainly doesn't help the alignment of the loading nozzle.

 

Misalignment of the loading nozzle shouldn't be a concern because the loading nozzle stays in the brass chamber during the entire duration of the blowback cycle. That's the entire purpose of the long rod. Look up into the magwell at the chamber and pull back the charging handle all the way. You'll see that the loading nozzle only travels just enough to let a single bb in and then push it in front of the hop-up... it only moves about 2cm maybe.

 

Mine hasn't seen as much damage as you guys are describing with no.122, but I'm gonna try my luck with the o-ring suggestion if or when my gun starts experiencing problems.

Edited by Lt.Fenix
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Hi Boost

He informed me this morning in an email that those you reference (.99 cents each) were not the correct part, or "...are not suitable for use in the WE".

 

They are not selling them anymore.

 

Instead they have the correct original washer provided from the manufacturer, and are now available in 10 packs for $5.95.

 

A better value actually and the correct washer for the gun smile.gif

 

Got my response from William.....

 

 

For part#122 of WE M4, please refer to the following link.

 

http://www.airsoftbuddy.com/index_eproduct...products_id=189

 

Thanks

 

William

Airsoft Buddy

 

 

Edited by 4boost
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Perhaps it's true with the WE; I don't know because I haven't tinkered with it, but most GBB's have rubber chambers in addition to the hop-up that can capture the bb so to speak, so in general too high of a hop-up is not necessary for most properly designed GBB's. I mean this is essentially how GBB's worked before hop-up was invented... they had to stop the bb's somehow.

 

Not true in SHOEI's case.

 

It relies on the hop up itself to keep BB's held captive. You will never balance proper hop and holding the bb on a stock SHOEI MP44. Its just wrong in its design from the start.

 

The Western Arms M4 experiences the exact same problem. RA tech offers a new rubber sleeve to capture the BB's. It is a rip off of the madbull idea of a sleeve featuring a "multi lip opening" to best hold the bb.

 

The WE is the same idea. It has 3 lips to help capture the bb. But the bb still knocks past this lip and stops against the green hop up nub.

 

This has been an issue on every GBB rifle I have owned. Less on the WE and Maruzens, more on the SHOEI's.

 

 

 

I have to say that your concern about thermal expansion, or more appropriately for this case contraction, is wildly overblown. For steel the thermal expansion coefficient is about 10^-5 in/K. The value for brass is the same order of magnitude. This means for temperature fluctuations on the order of several tens of degrees K up to maybe a maximum of 100K which is more than sufficient when talking about GBB's (remember that water goes from ice to boiling in a range of 40K), a length difference of maybe only on the order of 10^-4 and at most 10^-3 inches would result. Which is more precision than WE probably use in manufacturing these GBB's. Considering the price of them I doubt any precision better than 1/1000 or maybe 1/100 of an inch is used. Even then such a temperature fluctuation is generous considering that the gas has already expanded quite a bit while it has traveled to inside the innards of the bolt assembly. The thermal contraction is negligible for purposes of GBB's.

 

Not really.

 

Just fire your WE on full auto in cold weather for a few mags until you get some venting.

 

Immediately open the receiver and take the bolt and valve assembly out. The long valve rod will be stuck. The metal contracts so tightly around the silver valve rod (op-rod) that it is - at least - very difficult to slide back and forth out of the black tube.

 

There are at least 4 people on this thread who posted this same experience.

 

My Krytox fix a few pages back addressed this. It allowed the rod to slide in and out of the black tube even when nearly frozen.

 

That is the reason for the "necessary slop" that I mention. If that rod and tube was made with tolerances any tighter (less side to side slop), it wouldnt move at all once it cools down.

 

It really isnt much different than real guns like the AK or "MP40 vs the MP38" being built with "looser tolerances" on purpose. It functions better because of it.

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure what "slop" you're referring to here, but part no.122 is pretty solidly fixated to the bolt assembly itself and suffers from no excess sideways movements alone. So assuming at the beginning of the blowback cycle that it is properly aligned, any side-to-side motions resulting in misalignment would either result in the bolt itself, the brass chamber, or both moving side to side. The brass chamber is pretty solidly mounted to the frame, so we can consider the bolt. However, I honestly believe the bolt doesn't have enough slack in the receiver to be explicitly causing the damage to no. 122. It could be possible that your brass chamber is slightly misaligned to start with. My opinion is that the part is simply made too thin or is made of poor quality material, or both, to account for the tearing. The nature of the part requires that it be at least very slightly larger than the brass chamber to ensure a good seal, so some amount of "collision" so to speak, is probably unavoidable and actually desirable, only with the chamfered portion of course.

 

Nothing to do with the #122 washer. The slop I mention is the valve full extended out of the black tube - wiggle the valve/op-rod side to side. Plenty of slop. It has to be.

 

By the way, have you even opened your gun? The #122 washer is far smaller than the chambers diameter, not bigger.

 

It is a 'face seal o-ring' that expands when it encounters a blast of gas/air against its face - thats what the groove in the washer is for. If the seal was larger than the cylinder it would drag on its return.

 

Its just like a piston oring in an electric airsoft gun just in reverse. An AEG piston seal expands on the drive forward and collapses on the trip backwards. It has to in order to work properly.

 

Using an oversized O-ring as suggested made my gun fire worse not better. (Slow rate of fire and "drag") The muzzle report sounded strained and odd on the first shot. You really do need a flat washer. Im working on a quad style ring replacement.

 

With all that said, flaring and polishing the opening of the chamber has solved the tearing issue.

Im moving on to the next item on the list; hopup.

 

Next.

 

 

 

Misalignment of the loading nozzle shouldn't be a concern because the loading nozzle stays in the brass chamber during the entire duration of the blowback cycle. That's the entire purpose of the long rod. Look up into the magwell at the chamber and pull back the charging handle all the way. You'll see that the loading nozzle only travels just enough to let a single bb in and then push it in front of the hop-up... it only moves about 2cm maybe.

 

The #122 washer is undersized as mentioned. There is side to side movement when the valve is in the cylinder. However, misalignment of the loading nozzle was never mentioned as a problem at all.

 

 

 

 

Mine hasn't seen as much damage as you guys are describing with no.122, but I'm gonna try my luck with the o-ring suggestion if or when my gun starts experiencing problems.

 

Give it time :D

 

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Got my response from William.....

 

 

Boost, I think its a mistake - or hes raising the price again? Not cool.

 

But lets give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

He has been so bombarded by requests for this part in the last few days, he doesnt know if hes coming or going.

 

This is his email reply I received this morning - I bought two 10 packs for 5.95 each. Already paid this morning before work.

 

Just email him.

 

Dear ______,

According to that email, the O-ring is totally different and can't use on the WEM4 as part#122. So we didn't sell it now. Now, we're selling the original onepart#122 and directly from WE. So you can see the price is US$5.95 for 10pcs ischeaper than the email that you sent to me (US$0.99@). Sorry to make you confuse about the part#122.

William

Airsoft Buddy

Edited by rottenotto
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This Krytox, where can you get it and what is it normally used for? I went to a few different stores today to get some stuff and none of them had it. None of the people I talked to had even heard of it (unsurprisingly, as its new to me as well).

 

I'm also having a few problems with my WE cycling when loaded with BBs. I haven't had a good look at it yet but I think it might be the o-ring as it looked slightly damaged last time I looked at it. Not sure if something's wrong with the float valve that might be causing it, but I haven't touched that.

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rottenotto:

Not true in SHOEI's case...This has been an issue on every GBB rifle I have owned. Less on the WE and Maruzens, more on the SHOEI's.

 

Well your wording made the impression that you were talking about all GBB's in general, including pistols and smg's. In that case I suppose I could agree, I've had several Escort guns, an SP A1, A2, and an Escort MP5, and have experienced that problem somewhat, and have also read others' experiences. Pistols and SMG's are generally unaffected by this.

 

 

 

rottenotto:

Not really.

 

Just fire your WE on full auto in cold weather for a few mags until you get some venting.

 

Your wording definitely made it seem like it was solely cooldown from continuous fire that caused it. I'm referring to firing at room temperature, not in cold weather.

 

Be careful with your wording :P

 

 

 

rottenotto:

Nothing to do with the #122 washer. The slop I mention is the valve full extended out of the black tube - wiggle the valve/op-rod side to side. Plenty of slop. It has to be.

 

By the way, have you even opened your gun? The #122 washer is far smaller than the chambers diameter, not bigger.

 

But that's what you were talking about... you're talking about the damage on no.122. The nozzle "slop" has virtually no effect on the damage of no.122, which is the rubber piece that acts as the seal for the blowback chamber by the way. The reason was stated by me earlier: that the nozzle remains within the brass chamber during the entire blowback cycle, so any "slop" is negated by the fact that it's guided by the brass chamber. Talking about the looseness of the nozzle is irrelevent, because the bolt is guided by the receiver and not the nozzle.

 

And yes I've opened my gun, but I haven't disassembled the chamber so I never measured its inner diameter.

 

But the fact that 122 is smaller than the inner diameter of the chamber doesn't negate most of what I've said, and in fact actually enhances my stances.

Why?

It tells us that its collision with the end of the brass chamber is even less likely the source of the problem now. And like I've said, since the bolt doesn't move around appreciably side-to-side and it is no doubt what is determining the location of no.122, the only conclusions I can make is that either your brass chamber is currently misaligned so much that it clips off parts of the rubber, or the combination of your usage of the gun in cold weather and the poor quality rubber are to blame, which would freeze the rubber and cause the ends to crack off.

In the first case installing a new rubber piece no matter how high quality of the material will most likely end in it being severely damaged just like the stock piece. Then increasing the angle of the chamfer on the inside might have the unintended effect of sharpening the back end edge and leading to quicker deterioration of 122. I would suggest that you make sure your brass chamber is aligned correctly, because your problem won't go away until you do if this is the case.

The second case, which I think is the main problem, would simply involve getting a higher quality piece that is made of material which is durable enough and can withstand cold temperatures, but that's only assuming the chamber is properly aligned.

 

 

 

rottenotto:

The #122 washer is undersized as mentioned. There is side to side movement when the valve is in the cylinder. However, misalignment of the loading nozzle was never mentioned as a problem at all.

 

That was a reply to 4boost's post... and no reference was made to no.122. He explicitly stated concern about the alignment of the nozzle, so I posted to say that the nozzle movement was irrelevent.

 

Additionally, you did point out falsely that the nozzle (which you called the valve assembly, I assume that's what you meant) leaves the cylinder and its side to side movement results in it not entering "cleanly." So yes you did mention it as a problem, but my point is that it's not really there for the cited reasons.

rottenotto:

The valve assembly, and washer leave the cylinder. The "slop" of the valve allows side to side movement and consequently do not re-enter the tube "cleanly".

 

Also, please use the quoting system properly :-p... the method you used to quote and reply within the quote makes it hard for me to subsequently quote your remarks because the forum system doesn't quote already quoted sections... so it's harder to refer back to the original reply.

 

Lastly, I'm assuming you're not taking my arguments as personal attacks and I assure you I am not taking yours personally... because this is a discussion that would help all owners of the WE M4 in the end.

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Well your wording made the impression that you were talking about all GBB's in general, including pistols and smg's. In that case I suppose I could agree, I've had several Escort guns, an SP A1, A2, and an Escort MP5, and have experienced that problem somewhat, and have also read others' experiences. Pistols and SMG's are generally unaffected by this.

 

 

 

 

 

Your wording definitely made it seem like it was solely cooldown from continuous fire that caused it. I'm referring to firing at room temperature, not in cold weather.

 

Be careful with your wording :P

 

 

 

 

 

But that's what you were talking about... you're talking about the damage on no.122. The nozzle "slop" has virtually no effect on the damage of no.122, which is the rubber piece that acts as the seal for the blowback chamber by the way. The reason was stated by me earlier: that the nozzle remains within the brass chamber during the entire blowback cycle, so any "slop" is negated by the fact that it's guided by the brass chamber. Talking about the looseness of the nozzle is irrelevent, because the bolt is guided by the receiver and not the nozzle.

 

And yes I've opened my gun, but I haven't disassembled the chamber so I never measured its inner diameter.

 

But the fact that 122 is smaller than the inner diameter of the chamber doesn't negate most of what I've said, and in fact actually enhances my stances.

Why?

It tells us that its collision with the end of the brass chamber is even less likely the source of the problem now. And like I've said, since the bolt doesn't move around appreciably side-to-side and it is no doubt what is determining the location of no.122, the only conclusions I can make is that either your brass chamber is currently misaligned so much that it clips off parts of the rubber, or the combination of your usage of the gun in cold weather and the poor quality rubber are to blame, which would freeze the rubber and cause the ends to crack off.

In the first case installing a new rubber piece no matter how high quality of the material will most likely end in it being severely damaged just like the stock piece. Then increasing the angle of the chamfer on the inside might have the unintended effect of sharpening the back end edge and leading to quicker deterioration of 122. I would suggest that you make sure your brass chamber is aligned correctly, because your problem won't go away until you do if this is the case.

The second case, which I think is the main problem, would simply involve getting a higher quality piece that is made of material which is durable enough and can withstand cold temperatures, but that's only assuming the chamber is properly aligned.

 

 

 

 

 

That was a reply to 4boost's post... and no reference was made to no.122. He explicitly stated concern about the alignment of the nozzle, so I posted to say that the nozzle movement was irrelevent.

 

Additionally, you did point out falsely that the nozzle (which you called the valve assembly, I assume that's what you meant) leaves the cylinder and its side to side movement results in it not entering "cleanly." So yes you did mention it as a problem, but my point is that it's not really there for the cited reasons.

 

 

Also, please use the quoting system properly :-p... the method you used to quote and reply within the quote makes it hard for me to subsequently quote your remarks because the forum system doesn't quote already quoted sections... so it's harder to refer back to the original reply.

 

Lastly, I'm assuming you're not taking my arguments as personal attacks and I assure you I am not taking yours personally... because this is a discussion that would help all owners of the WE M4 in the end.

 

I dont take offense. ;)

 

But you really need to take things apart like the others have (like 4boost - he definitely gets it and has apparently taken the innards apart), before you can comment or contribute. Otherwise you dont know exactly what we are describing or talking about.

 

Youre confusing nozzles with valve assemblies - and alignment issues of the cylinder with alignment issues of the black tube/valve assembly. - on and on.

 

I really cant reply to your post any further because your comments show you simply dont understand yet how this system works.

 

Why dont you take things apart first - it should be clear once you do.

 

 

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This Krytox, where can you get it and what is it normally used for? I went to a few different stores today to get some stuff and none of them had it. None of the people I talked to had even heard of it (unsurprisingly, as its new to me as well).

 

I'm also having a few problems with my WE cycling when loaded with BBs. I haven't had a good look at it yet but I think it might be the o-ring as it looked slightly damaged last time I looked at it. Not sure if something's wrong with the float valve that might be causing it, but I haven't touched that.

 

 

Hi Chris!

 

You can buy krytox in either grease or oil form.

 

I use oil but grease may work even better on the op-rod.

 

You can buy 2 oz tubes of Krytox on eBay for about $20-30.00.

 

You will use it for everything. I have been using the grease in AEG gearboxes for years.

 

And the oil really did solve the issue of the WE locking up on full auto - no more venting. I have oiled the rod a couple times and it moves freely even when it is cold enough that there is frost on the black tube!!

 

 

 

 

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Some rumor about WE from the Hong Kong side.

 

- A aluminium bolt carrier which aim to use with 134a gas is already made for user in country with lower fps legal limit (r.g. Japan & UK). No info about will it be sold seperately or not.

 

- WE AK series is already in development process.

 

 

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I just received the steel bolt stop and charging handle that I got for free when I ordered five extra magazines. Again Airsoft Buddy sent me exactly what I ordered and delivered pretty fast too. He seems to keep up the good work. Couldn't be happier with his service. The magazines seem to be the new "grey" versions, just as with everyone else, not like the original black one I have.

 

Has anyone found a place where we could get the AFC nozzle or any other tune down solution? My gun is the high powered one.

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