1st Commando Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Our landwarrior M4s arrived this morning so i'll give them a good look over and report back once i've finished work and had a play Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1st Commando Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Had a quick play at lunch time and .............WOW they are fun but 500 fps on green at 20C . I'm glad I have some part #42s coming tomorrow Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pollux77 Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Hey all you propane-users out there, here's one for you: What's the big difference between propane and butane or a mixture of both gases in terms of pressure or usability towards the M4 and other gas guns? Most gastanks available here contain a mixture of ~80% propane and ~20% butane. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1st Commando Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 butane is useless as it's presure is much lower Quote Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 I know butane has a higher vaporization temp then propane and would mean lower pressure. Pure butane in a GBB puts out even less than 134a, pressure wise; I've tried it. Having different mixes per brand would probably be the reason why their power output also varies. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LordElpus Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 I know butane has a higher vaporization temp then propane and would mean lower pressure. Pure butane in a GBB puts out even less than 134a, pressure wise; I've tried it. Having different mixes per brand would probably be the reason why their power output also varies. Â Had the chance to try out 1stCommando's this evening.. i'm going off AEGS... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobbcore11 Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Has anyone skirmished this thing yet? Would reallylike to hear about how it compares to other guns out in the field. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LordElpus Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) Assuming the 300fps valves arrive in time, the 2 lucky sods in our team that have them will be using them this sunday for CQB. Edited February 17, 2009 by LordElpus Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Marky [UE] Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Had the chance to try out 1stCommando's this evening.. i'm going off AEGS... Â My thoughts exactly. There is something about doing everything right! and then the noise and the blowback arrives! Â I really want this to be a realistic in game weapon and I can't wait for the CO2 mags Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1st Commando Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 I'll be writing up my brief review of the Uk models during the course of the day depending on how busy we are at work. Â I'm looking forward to our new valves arriving today which will hopefully drop the power enough to use them this weekend Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lughnasadhuk Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) Had a quick play at lunch time and .............WOW they are fun but 500 fps on green at 20C . I'm glad I have some part #42s coming tomorrow  Am i right in thinking then that these are either V1 or V2 but before they started selling them with the reduced power kit?  Will need to order some parts to dampen it donw some : (  Oh, and 1st, where did you order the replacement valves from? AB? Edited February 17, 2009 by Lughnasadhuk Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1st Commando Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) Only the AFC version has the reduced power ! We ordered ours from Tactical Quartermaster  I realise that most of the following intial review is teaching the majority of you to suck eggs but it was written for use on other forums where there is not as much knowledge of this product as there is here.  It is mainly aimed at those interested in the Uk model from Land Warrior   Pics to follow later   "Here is my initial review of the WE M4-A1 GBB rifle (UK model).  I will be updating this review over the next week or so once mods ,downgrades and game experience have all been completed and some photos taken.  The WE M4 interested me the minute I saw news of it's development as the Western Arms model was a nice product but over priced , under speced and plastic.  We pre ordered two of these WE M4s with Landwarrior in the UK along with six spares magazines (three each)and were kept well up to date on the expected arrival and progress of the shipment as much as was humanly possible (thank you Scott).  Last friday I was notified that the order had arrived at Landwarrior and would be shipped that day .  Scott also informed me that they were stripping all the magazines and sealing them with PTFE tape to prevent leaks.  It is worth noting here that while NONE of our mags leak (probably due to LW being so kind as to check and tape every mag and ship them out with a little gas in)Most users of the WE M4 report that new magazines will leak until cycled two or three times to "set" the seals.  Monday morning and the package arrives ........ The guns are packed in a brown cardboard box with cardboard inserts to prevent the guns moving in transit and they appear to do this very well.  You will also find the rifle itself is inside a clear plastic bag (for the want of a better word) which prevents dirt or dust etc getting into the working parts (a nice touch)  Also in the box you should find .....  1- A 30 round magazine  2- small instruction leaflet with exploded diagram and the usual amusing cartoons  3 - 200 rnd pistol type loading tool (an almost essential item)  Upon removing the rifle from it's packaging the first thing you will notice is just how solid and sturdy it is .  The overall feel with the smaller than airsoft lower frame and pistol grip and matt finish which is identical to the british made M4s I have handled in the past , it just feels right...  The body is lacking any markings on this version but replacment reciveres with and witout markings are available from online stores for $30 - $35 plus post .  The magazines are very sturdy although lighter and considerably cheaper than WA mags at under £30 each .  Once in the rifle the magazines offers realistic weight and balance bringing the total weight of the rifle up to 3.1KG when loaded with 30x 0.20g BBs which is the exact weight of the real steel .  Anyone who has used a real armalite will be far more familiar with the operation of the WE than those who have used aegs.  Inserting the magazine -  When inserting the magazine it is worth getting into the habit of "tap and tug" which is to tap the bottom of the magazine to secure it's seating and tug on it (as if to pull it out) to ensure the magazine catch has caught.  This is just like the real steel armalites I have handled and in the same way the recoil of the first shot can shock a loose, unsecured mag from the mag well causing it to fall rapidly to the ground (bad times).  Once the mag is seated you are required to pull the charging lever to the rear (be smooth and firm ,do NOT jerk the charging lever to ensure maximum life of the working parts just like the real deal)  If the magazines you have inserted is loaded then the bolt will return to battery under the force of the buffer spring , however if the magzine is empty the bolt will lock to the rear* requiring the charging lever to be manually assisted forwards (do not hit the bolt release while the charging lever is full extended as it causes the charging lever to snap forward with force enough to break the charging lever).  * NOTE the magazine can be set to not activate the bolt stop ,more on this later*  Now that you have inserted the loaded magazine and cocked the hammer , you now have a round in the chamber.  You can now set the selector lever to safe if required (as on the real steel the safe setting cannot be selected unless the hammer is cocked) Moving the selector lever between settings feels positive and gives a nice click unlike most aeg selectors which can feels mushy and indecisive.  Firing semi -  Extending the LE style retractable stock will reveal the one downside to copying the real weapon so well...  The stock has a little play on the stock tube which i fixed very easily by removing the butt and adding two small strips of black and nasty (insulation tape) to the buffer tube and then replacing the butt.  This made the stock feel much less rattly (although it was no where near as some reviewers would lead you to believe).  Once shouldered the rifles balances VERY well and the difference of the width of the lower reciever and pistol grip become very apparent .  Pulling the trigger you notice there is no aeg type delay as the hammer is released crisply and instantly followed by a loud crack and mettalic clunk as the bolt blowsback into the buffer tube and shunts it into your shoulder , quickly counteracted by the bolt slamming back into battery and loading the next round !  The recoil is certainly comparable to firing live 22cal LR or civi spec 9mm para from a similar rifle.  The one thing that may catch you off guard is the small amount of gas that get pushed back towards your cheek from under the charging lever which reminded me of powder blast you get when firing some real rifles.  The gun certainly puts the rounds downrange very quickly with a very positive hit on the target (large cardboard back board)  A quick chrono of the gun with chrombro chrono reveals why .....  test done with 0.20g blaster at 20C on cold mag (just gassed)  1st shot 517 fps 2nd shot 507 fps 3rd shot 498 fps 4th shot 502 fps 5th shot 503 fps  The gun settled to around 502 fps for each subsiquent shot until the magazine ran dry at 30 rounds .  Having had a play on semi we decided to try having a bit more fun and use a bit of auto..  Setting the gun to "auto" and pulling the trigger just made an already big smile even bigger .  The gun really does liven up when fired in bursts and I found it naturally shot 3 rounds each trigger pull which is probably partly down to my trigger disipline but also down to the fact the rate of fire feels just right.  It does not on paper have as high ROF as most aegs but it does not feel or sound any slower at all when firing and certainly seems ideal for an M4.  I'm told the actual ROF is around 700 rpm but have yet to test this myself.  As indicated earlier the WE magzines hold 30 rounds and have a "bolt stop feature" which comprises of a small selector on the top of each mag which when set will prevent the gun from firing when empty and locks the bolt to the rear .  This means that when the magazine runs out you are free to eject the mag , insert a new one and hit the bolt release catch which is found on the upper left side of the lower reciever (exactly where it should be on the real one).  This lever releases the bolt from it's rearward postion and lets it slam back to battery under the power of the buffer spring (remember make sure your charging lever is not rearward when releasing the bolt)  Once the bolt has been released there is no need to cock the gun as it is already cocked and ready to fire with a round in the breach !  If in the unlikely event the bolt does stoppage on the way forward WE have kindly replicated the "forward assist" located on the rear , right of the upper reciever (plunger type thing) which can be used to help force the bolt into battery (personally I would prefer not to use this in favour of finding out why it has jammed)  Basic field strip -  The WE has been designed to strip just like the real M4 so once you have removed the magazine , set the selector to "semi" and rack the charging handle to cock the gun.  You may now push the rear takedown pin (from left side to right) please note it is a captive pin meaning it will not fall out all the way but be retained by the right side reciever !  The gun can now be opened up by hinging the reciever on the front pin , swinging the barrel downwards.  Once open you can now pull the charging lever back which pulls the bolt out of the upper reciever allowing you to take hold and pull it clear by hand.  The charging lever can now be removed too.  The charging levers on the WE have been shown to be a weaker part in the US although it could be partially due to poor handling along with the fact it is cast not forged etc.  Real charging levers are not a restricted item in the Uk and can be bought and work in the WE with slight modification (which I shall go into another time)  If you prefer , the spare WE charging handles are only priced at £8 -£10 in the UK anyway .  Back to the strip down ....  The buffer and spring can also be removed by holding down the small retaining lever in the lower frame allowing the long buffer spring and buffer guide to be removed (be warned it has a little force behind it and should be taken out slowly and with caution)  The foregrip are removed in the usual way by holding the delta ring and removing the upper and lower foregrips .  These foregrips can be quite hard to remove as they fit very tightly with no undue movement.  They are of a fiber type ,M4 style with aluminium heat shields inside.  The material of the pistol grip is the same and replicates the real steel perfectly (chances are they are real grips as that would more than likely be cheaper than manufacturing new ones)  The front sight/ gas block and outer barrel are very well finished in a matt black to match the body as is the buffer tube.  The Muzzle , foregrip collar and carry handle adjustment parts are all in an anodised grey finish and as with the black parts feel very hardwearing .  The carry handle itself I also suspect may have been out-sourced as it has a finish and build identical to the aforementioned British M4 and lacks the edges of airsoft versions , that is it has rounded ,sturdier corners and fits perfectly on the milspec top rail .  The outer barrel can be unscrewed just forward of the foresight (10 inch)and as with the extension piece it has a 14mm+ thread so be sure to buy for positive thread on after market parts !  I have fitted a Dboys RIS on to mine and although a tight fit it does fit well with zero movement !  I have also tried a cheapsoft eotech which did fit but had a very tiny amount of play if really rattled by hand .  I will be trying other accesories during the course of the week .  I have also ordered some new valves (part #42) from Tactical quartermaster which should arrive today .  Hopefully these new valves will drop the power to the advertised 300-250 fps which will make the gun more useable in the UK without dropping the felt recoil  I have yet to test the hop at a decent range and have not yet adjusted it but it did appear to be over hopping a bit on 0.20s , again more on this later " Edited February 17, 2009 by 1st Commando Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1st Commando Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 I like someone else on here am having a hard time removing the valve assembly etc . It seems as if it has been locktited , any ideas on loosening it up ? Â Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lughnasadhuk Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Does anyone know where in the UK are stocking spares for this gun? Â I know tactical quartermaster has some listed but is out of stock, anyone know of any others? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1st Commando Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Call the guy at Tactical QM as he may have more in stock   Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Major Dutch Schaeffer Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Hi, I'm looking for a Daniel Defense barrel nut for DD MK18 RIS 2 rail handguard, where can I find it? Need a shop in Europe or any other shop which can ship the barrel nut to France... Somewhere in these pages someone did manage to find this part... Thank you very much!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chris u'5 Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Hi, I'm looking for a Daniel Defense barrel nut for DD MK18 RIS 2 rail handguard, where can I find it? Need a shop in Europe or any other shop which can ship the barrel nut to France... Somewhere in these pages someone did manage to find this part... Thank you very much!!! Me too, no luck so far and I've emailed lots of places Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PaulB Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Does anyone know where in the UK are stocking spares for this gun? I know tactical quartermaster has some listed but is out of stock, anyone know of any others?  Ring and speak to Mark at TQM, he has various bits in stock. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PaulB Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 I like someone else on here am having a hard time removing the valve assembly etc . It seems as if it has been locktited , any ideas on loosening it up ? Â Once you've removed the silver pin from the nozzle assembly, put in two tiny screwdrivers in the slots, grip them with pliers and turn. Â Mine was tight, but it did come apart. I'm getting Mark at TQM to get some valve assemblys which will enable us to swap between 300 and 350 fps with ease. I am going to try and widen the holes on the 300 valve to get it up to 350. Â Good luck. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1st Commando Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 unfortunately our silver rods and the valve screw are too firmly in place to remove by any method so far mentioned Thank you Paul , that seems to work for many people but not for ours yet . I may try heating up the join to loosen the loctite . I might leave it for tomorrow now and just enjoy the fun of firing it tonight as I spent 2 hours at work today fighting it Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JiNx0036 Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) For the one's who are wondering what RS parts fit:  I've outfitted my WE with Magpul Parts  -Collapsable Stock -MIAD Full Kit Grip -MOE Handguard  1. Stock- Was very easy to install and took me 2 minutes. End result is a less wobbly stock but has some very slight movement. I wonder if the CTR stock with the extra friction lock would work but who knows.  2. Grip- I recieved the Full Kit today and installed it in about 10-15 minutes. I would caution on when taking the original grip off not to lose the spring or the small black pressure nub which is needed or else your selector won't work at all. I lost the black nub for about 10 minutes until I found it under my couch but soon after I was in business again. The grip itself screws in fine with the stock screw (the Magpul supplied screw is too big)  The kit comes in 3 phases, your front finger grip, hand grip, and your palm grip. The finger and hand grips work fine in combination with eachother. The full kit comes with a finger grip that has a winter trigger guard attached. This part requires a bit of modication to your recievers pin holes in order to screw in the allen screw your supplied. Your recievers pin hole is too small and needs to be widened a bit. The palm grips work also. The small grip has no upper guard like the G27 grip or those seen in pictures. The next two palm grips fit okay. They do have to be dremeled a bit where the upper guard meets your reciever. The grips guard meets too soon with your reciever causing a tiny space between your hand grip and palm grip, instead of it being flush against the hand grip. It's not too noticeable but yet it is when installing it.  3. MOE Handguard- The handguard that should be used is the RS steel not the PTS version. The handguard I installed has a bit of movement to it. I believe it's because my Delta spring is a bit soft and allows the handguard to move back and forth a tad. A stronger spring would hold. The front ring on mine is also loose. The hole where the gas tube comes through is a bit wide and allows the ring to move side to side causing the hanguard to also move side to side a tad. The ring also has no screw on the upper part to help with the side movement. I would recommend some way of gluing the front ring to the sight base so it doesn't move at all, then the only minor problem is the delta spring.  Overall, the parts fit but the hand grip needs some modding for certain customization. The handguard is fine but certain parts on the WE need to be stronger or less wobble. The stock is great except for the tiny movement. I would say the handguard is the most annoying while the rest work great and are less noticeable. Pics to come Edited February 17, 2009 by JiNx0036 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HSOJGNILRAD Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 I used Otto's method. Find a small ( skinny) pair of needle nose pliers slip them in between the holes grip tight and use a pair of channel locks to grip it and unscrew. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
3vi1-D4n Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Heat it up first. Its locktited thats why its hard. It should unscrew quite easy after that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lughnasadhuk Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 (edited) How much fun? : ) Â Got mine today and fired 4 shots before following Marky [uE]'s guide from page 126 on how to strip it down and secure part #36. Â I just wish I could play with it again but will be good and wait until the loctite drys - how long by the way? Â Oh and for anyone not sure about taking one of these to bits, I have only once, and unsuccessfully, stripped down an AEG gearbox and built it back up but taking this thing apart is very simple - easier than a spring rifle like the VSR. Â Thanks to all that have contributed to this post so far. Â P.S. Oh and 2 mags neither had a single leak. I did hear that LWA has been removing valves and pfte taping them so that may explain the lack of any leak. Edited February 18, 2009 by Lughnasadhuk Quote Link to post Share on other sites
slu Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Oh and for anyone not sure about taking one of these to bits, I have only once, and unsuccessfully, stripped down an AEG gearbox and built it back up but taking this thing apart is very simple - easier than a spring rifle like the VSR. Â Yeah, good to see that. I've always thought that reduced complexity and a total lack of anything electronic would be an advantage for GBBs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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