Madbull Chrono...suspicious

[greg]

I'd love to know what that guy on your U-tubbeee offering is saying. I guess the chrono did all the talking really.

 

My experience has been that they (MB) are consistent. Ie, if they are out, they stay out by the same amount.

 

I make a note of what a site chrono reads, compared to what the Skan gives me. Then I can accurately set my guns to get within a few fps of that site's particular limit, as read on their chrono.

 

I have found that subsequent visits to the same site's chronos have shown them to be out, by the same amount.

 

If this is true for all MB's, perhaps a site (such as Toms) could get a Skan, & use that to 'calibrate' the MB's. If you know that one of the MB's is consistently 30, low, you can just manually add 30 to the reading to ensure continuity.

 

As already said, I would have thought site organizers would have taken this more seriously. Even a '350' site could be allowing 380fps automatics & therefore on very thin ice.

 

 

Greg.

 

PS. Tom, your Dorking MB is very consistant.

[The lolinator]

I chronoed my m4 and my L96 through a MB chrono:

 

m4 - 322 (normal)

L96 - 287 (err.... wha?)

 

L96 usually fires at 460ish so we tried again and I got a solid 294!!!

 

progress...

[uscmCorps]

Most of the major OPs around me in Southern California run by the Lion Claws organizers were using Madbull Chronos ... I think only because they were donated by Madbull for free. It's possible that John Lu went out and bought them himself or one of his event organizers bought them out of the events budget. Regardless, every time we have an event we always have two team based chronos on hand: mine is the X-Chortech X3200 chrono and my friend's is the Guarder Speeder 2000 Chrono. Both give consistent results. We do this to ensure our guns are within the allowed velocities beforehand. We then would take the exact same guns straight to the event's Madbull chrono station to get tagged and they would chrono either extremely high, or extremely low. When the measurements read high (i.e. if true are WAY over what it should be), the organizers adjust the allowed passable velocities accordingly. However, when the Madbull chrono shows the velocity as being up to 50+ fps low, they don't adjust the passable velocities accordingly, and as a result hot guns can get through.

 

To me, that is absolutely unacceptable. Every event should have a reliable and accurate chrono. No exceptions. If the equipment that's used to test guns for players' safety fails to perform as needed, it should be immediately rejected. Not only have the event Madbull chronos been like this, but the Madbull chronos I've seen other people use have also been inconsistent in this way too. To me, a chrono that consistently shows results at 30 fps above actual, or 30 fps below actual, is still unacceptable. A chrono should show consistent accurate actual results. Anything else is a safety hazard.

[FELDJAGER]

And Lo, it wasn't just me....

 

I showed this to a local shop owner who is close with madbull. He agreed with this youtube comment

 

"I don't there is anything really wrong with both chronos. The concept in the video is similar to real guns. The greatest speed of bullet is not at the muzzle of the gun, but rather, around 4-8 inches in front of the gun. Anything after that, the speed starts to decrease. That is why one chrono has a smaller reading than the one behind. Even when you switch them, the results are still the same. I hope this helps."

 

Now, please correct me if I'm wrong but I doubt that BBs have enough mass and inertia to accelerate after they have left the barrel. Wouldn't the BB slow down with a wall of air in front of it and all of it's propelling air scattering wildly once it clears the barrel? I shot through my chrono with the muzzle 3-5 inches from the sensor I got a reading 5-10 fps LOWER than if the muzzle was right against the sensor.

 

 

[galactica]

0. You will get 5-10 fps differences in any chronoing session on any gun, doesn't matter where the muzzle was.

1. those chronos are measuring in METRES per second.

2. if anyone's willing to believe that there's a difference in 20 metres per second in the acceleration of a BB in the distance between one chrono and another, i've got some amazing real estate deals to talk to them about.

[FELDJAGER]

0. You will get 5-10 fps differences in any chronoing session on any gun, doesn't matter where the muzzle was.

1. those chronos are measuring in METRES per second.

2. if anyone's willing to believe that there's a difference in 20 metres per second in the acceleration of a BB in the distance between one chrono and another, i've got some amazing real estate deals to talk to them about.

I meant it chronoed lower than my usual consistency spectrum I totally forgot that it was set to metres per second aswell, which further proves that the youtube theory is bs.

[greg]

A chrono should show consistent accurate actual results. Anything else is a safety hazard.

Couldn't agree more.

 

Add to that the fact that you are potentially standing in line for a 'chrono-lottery' to decide weather or not you actually get to play!!!

 

At most events, even the most stringent 'chronoing', appears to be a farce.

 

The best system I have seen, is a zero tolerance chronoing, that takes place in the dead/regen areas during play.

 

However, even this is laughable, if the chrono is unreliable.

 

 

Greg.

[dusseldorf101]

i wasnt allowed to play at my local site cos apparently my warrior L96 with ALL stock parts was firing at 570fps?? Suspicious?? I think so!!

[teflon don]

last sunday i went to a game

and my bar 10 who shoots 450 got chronod @244

and the strange thing was that apparently alot of guns where shooting 244

[greg]

last sunday i went to a game

and my bar 10 who shoots 450 got chronod @244

and the strange thing was that apparently alot of guns where shooting 244

 

Well that's fair then isn't it?

 

 

Greg.

[teflon don]

not afther al that trouble i did to make my bar legal and then arive at the field to hear that only field ammo was allowed (that made my bar useless)

and i spend 2 days making my mp5 legal and i left al my m4 at home (even my gbb which is awesome)

i talked to the organizers afterwards and they thanked me for pointing out that problem but no one had to redo the chrono and they didn't check the mags so you could use whatever you want to chrono and i told them that i had the 0.25bb inside my gun and they said that they would just ad 20fps to the result and they didn't check the hop up setting

i know that airsoft is a game of honor but im really tempted to cheat next time

[The General]

i know that airsoft is a game of honor but im really tempted to cheat next time

 

 

Let us know how that works out for you mate.

[teflon don]

i said i was tempted i didn't say i was going to do that

there are alway some *albatrosses* that ruin it for the rest of the players and i would hate to be that guy

anyway fps i overrated and people who think theyll get more range by extra power generally don't bother investing in more usefull stuf (ie barrels bucking )

most of them are new guy who use chinese guns and they think that that extra 40fps will make them uber elite and they eventually will go home whining about how al the other guns out preform them

[uscmCorps]

and i spend 2 days making my mp5 legal and i left al my m4 at home (even my gbb which is awesome)

i talked to the organizers afterwards and they thanked me for pointing out that problem but no one had to redo the chrono and they didn't check the mags so you could use whatever you want to chrono and i told them that i had the 0.25bb inside my gun and they said that they would just ad 20fps to the result

Your event organizers suck and shouldn't be running any games. Period. Safety should always come first.

[The General]

i said i was tempted i didn't say i was going to do that

there are alway some *albatrosses* that ruin it for the rest of the players and i would hate to be that guy

anyway fps i overrated and people who think theyll get more range by extra power generally don't bother investing in more usefull stuf (ie barrels bucking )

most of them are new guy who use chinese guns and they think that that extra 40fps will make them uber elite and they eventually will go home whining about how al the other guns out preform them

 

Yeah, I know mate, I was not having a go. I agree with you it is annoying. If everyone was properly checked at sites with an accurate chrono, with site provided bb's and people were made to remove silencers and set hop to fully off. I think it would go a long way towards stopping the high FPS wars that seem to happen at some sites I have been to.

 

When you are using a 350 fps SCAR Heavy with a tightbore and TM rubber and you are getting seriously outranged by people with M4's and the bb's are really hurting when you get hit... Makes you go hmmmmmmmm

 

At one site, I was shooting about 40 foot short and the return fire was slamming into me and really was noticable.

 

I was advised later the guy was using a PTW with .28 ammo and people "suggested" he had a 500 fps swap out cylinder. Hmmmmm

 

At other times I have hit people with my 307fps (hop off) upgraded TM P90 and people have complained that its too hot. Thats with .20 ammo as well. Hmmpf! Can't win it seems. If you get a noticable range on other people, you are a cheat some how.

[Spudgun]

Getting back on topic......

 

I've got a Madbull Chrono and I've had no problems with it. I've found it to be as reliable and as accurate as the site Chrony (I think it's a Guarder). If anything, my Madbull will read up to 20fps higher than the site Chrony, but then again, the hop setting could account for the difference.

[uscmCorps]

Getting back on topic......

 

I've got a Madbull Chrono and I've had no problems with it. I've found it to be as reliable and as accurate as the site Chrony (I think it's a Guarder). If anything, my Madbull will read up to 20fps higher than the site Chrony, but then again, the hop setting could account for the difference.

If you read through the thread you'll notice your own experience with the Madbull chrono is part of our concern. When you say it shows results 20fps higher than the site chrono, how do you know that the Madbull chrono is accurate and the Guarder site chrono isn't? It would suck if you've tuned your gun using the MB chrono and your gun is in fact shooting 20fps lower than the limit. Admittedly that's better than the opposite result (showing false readings of 20fps lower and getting to the game only to find out your gun won't pass their site chrono), but I think it's important that your chrono gives accurate actual results. Anything else is pretty pointless.

[Spudgun]

I've read through the entire thread alright. It appears that a lot of people are noticing a large variation in FPS results between Chronos (The Madbull reading consistantly high). I'm just saying that my Madbull reads (more or less) the same as the site Chrony.

 

Now, you asked; Since one reads higher than the other. Which one is accurate? I've no idea. I've yet to see any low priced (Read: Any Chrony bought by Airsofters) Chrony that comes complete with a Certificate of Calibration that is traceable to National Standards. Suffice to say, I doubt that any 'Airsoft' Chrony is 100% accurate. The question remains; What level of accuracy is acceptable?

 

Since my Madbull has never read more than 20FPS different from the Site Chrony (of which the discrepency can be accounted for by a number of factors), they're close enough as not to give any concern.

 

In my opinion, the only way anyone is going to get any hard evidence of a problem is to get a heap of Chronys together and test them with a single gun. Or to send a suspect Chrony to a Calibration House.

[galactica]

actually, I started the thread because I noticed, and was not alone, that the blue madbull chrono was reading low - like, 30fps low. The Madbull at one site my team attends is consistently low by this amount where a Guarder, Xcortech and various site chronys all give results as we expect from our guns. My gun is about 320fps at Urban Assault on their open air chrony, about 320 on the team's Guarder, about 320 on my Xcortech and 290 on the Madbulls belonging to two well known urban sites and one major one-off event organiser. That was evidence enough for me, and here we are 5 pages of pretty consistent agreement later, even featuring a tacit admission from MadBull that there "may be a problem".

 

30 fps of discrepancy is enough to make the difference between a site-legal 350fps gun and a 380fps "section 5 firearm". That should give anyone responsible, concern.

[ninjaklan]

I if add my 2 cents, we've had same experience with madbull chronos. Compared to Guarder and Xortech ACM chrono, Madbull always showed up between 20-40 less FPS or 20-40fps more , while the other 2 chronos always measured concistent velocity (5fps+/- difference - AEG related of course). Dunno what the problem is with these Madbull's but my advice is to stay away from them and rather take a Guarder or even better, the cheap but very reliable Xortech.

[uscmCorps]

Spudgun, I understand your stance on this. The concern we have is that you shouldn't have to adjust your measurements by 20+/- FPS when taking a reading from the Madbull chrono. It should tell you accurate readings. Furthermore, while yours shows 20 fps over actual, there are reports of MB Chronos showing velocities of 20 fps under actual. Someone buying a MB chrono doesn't know if their chrono is reading one one way or the other until they have a reliable chrono to compare it to... and that's just not right.

 

Does anyone know how accurate is the Shooting Chrony F1? I've got an XCortech X3200 and a Guarder Chrono, but now that I'm getting more involved with running events I'd like to get an accurate as possible (and affordable) chronograph in which the results are over 99% accurate and indisputable.

[greg]

Yeah, I know mate, I was not having a go. I agree with you it is annoying. If everyone was properly checked at sites with an accurate chrono, with site provided bb's and people were made to remove silencers and set hop to fully off. I think it would go a long way towards stopping the high FPS wars that seem to happen at some sites I have been to.

So very true.

 

We all have shocking stories of 'upped' guns & the havoc they can cause.

 

I spent ages trying to work out why I was getting so many complaints when I made the switch from .29's to .4's in my sniper rifle earlier this year.

 

Obviously, they hold their energy longer than the .29's & obviously, they absorb more of the energy made available to them.

 

What I never considered was the amount of difference hop preassure can make:

 

I set my vsr up for 500fps, hop off. With the hop set for .29's (about 1/4 on) it chronoes 507. No big deal. What I didn't know, was with the hop set for .4's (about 3/4 on) I get,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 535................ouch!

 

So, chronoing guns with the hop off?????????????????????????????????????????

 

 

Greg.

[greg]

30 fps of discrepancy is enough to make the difference between a site-legal 350fps gun and a 380fps "section 5 firearm". That should give anyone responsible, concern.

Not only that but a 30fps advantage to the 'home' players from that site. As regulars, they will be set for the limit on that chrono. Visitors will set for the limit on a chrono reading 30fps more & therefor be at -30fps on arrival.

 

Hardly a fair playing field. Not exactly encouraging for new players to return to that site, without 'upping' their gun.

 

Which as you point out, could put then in to the 'illegal zone'.

 

As previously said, I'm amazed this has been allowed to continue. It kind of means, that the Site, is inadvertently 'encouraging' players to break the law.

 

 

Greg.

[Richard Y]

youve got me concerned now about mine, as far as i now theres no variance between mine and site chronos but does any one have a link to a cheap xortec then ? And ill do a comparison that or compare with the urban assualt chronos this sat.

[greg]

the urban assualt chronos this sat.

Unless things have changed since I was there last, the UA chron's are just a formality. A big cue for nothing.

 

Home team might as well not bother & any one 'Not Local' just needs to load & use .3's all day, claiming that they are .2's.

 

The Marshals will then follow the 'Non-Locals' round all day (while the locals complain), re-chronoing until about 3pm, when they twig it, finally load the gun with .2's & impose the (who cares 'cos I'll never come back anyway) 3 month ban.

 

All the while, the locals are on 500fps mp5's & ignoring their hits.

 

I know good players who pointblank refuse to play this otherwise amazing site because of the usual 'locals have one set of rules' shenanigans.

 

Please tell me things have changed, 'cos it's been like that every time I've visited since it opened.

 

 

Greg.