Do you think Co2 capsule powered guns should be allowed in skirmishes?

[Rob15]

As you can probably guess from the title I'm curious to see what the general opinion is of Co2 powered guns being allowed in skirmishes if they do meet the fps limits of a site for the category of guns it falls into. I'm particularly interested in this myself having just got myself a KWC Co2 Mini UZI and after asking a site owner if it would be allowed for use on the basis that it was physically restricted and fired under the site fps limits. Please note that this topic is mainly aimed at the non-adjustable Co2 guns and not ones where they have features such as adjustable bolts, but feel free to comment on such systems if you like

 

The response I got was not very encouraging though, infact it was basically "Co2 guns will never be allowed on site because I don't like them and are outright banned". Now I should point out now that I respect the site owners right to choose how the site is run and what goes and what doesn't (as long as everything is within the law of course), however I also respect my right to think that is a very narrow minded decision and seems to have no basis other than people saying Co2 guns fire above site limits, which is often, but not always true with Co2 models.

 

I hold the opinion that no gun should be banned purely on the basis of what it is powered by and that if a site is operating fps limits then a player with a gun should have the option of getting it tested and if it meets the sites requirements should be allowed.

 

Now the argument being used against Co2 guns seems to be based on the idea that all Co2 guns are very powerful, this is not the case as there are models such as certain versions of the KWC NBB Co2 range that fire under 1j and various other models from other manufacturers. It is fair to say a large portion, if not most will fire about the average UK site limits but it should just be a case of chrono it and see before saying if its allowed or not?

 

The thing is, the same argument can also be applied to say 'ban all green gas powered guns' because there is a very large (i think its fairly safe to say more than there are Co2 guns) amount of gas pistols that will fire above site limits very easily.

 

Lets take the STTI/KJ MK23 SOCOM, I had one in the past and as most people will probably know they push out plastic at around 450fps on regular green gas, if you ran raw propane then they are likely to be edging towards 500fps and if you have a can of red gas to hand its likely it'll go over 500fps where infact the max I can get from my Co2 mini UZI is 468fps without starting to drill the valves to make them high flow or anything.

 

The STTI/KJ MK23 is not a special case either, there are a vast range of other pistols that will do a similar thing including guns like the KJ Ruger Mk1s, HFC Mauser M712, old Digicon target pistols, just about any Marushin 8mm NBB and even Tanaka Works were known to make some revolvers that would spit plastic at a very high fps on nothing more than green gas before the pre-restricted days in Japan.

 

Now to me that would seem like a strong argument (if not stronger than the one against Co2) against normal green gas powered guns, yet sites don't seem to ban them on the basis that they can run over site limits, instead most sites seem to just apply common sense there and either chrono them all as normal or if it does appear there is a hot gas gun pull it out of the game and chrono it to check so it baffles me as to why some sites will not do the same with other gases.

 

There is also a safety argument you can use towards Co2 as well, when you fill up a normal mag with green gas you are essentially putting a flammable gas into what is basically a pot metal container, however a Co2 in mag based gun takes a gas that doesn't burn that is contained in an industry standard steel cylinder which itself is also contained in a layer of pot metal. To me that seems like a safer bet.

 

But anyway, that is enough rambling on from me, what do you think about allowing Co2 powered guns in skirmishes?

 

[cazboab]

If the power source you use is illegal, noxious, messy or radioactive you shouldn't be allowed it, since CO2 is none of those I don't see the problem.

[Walton_County_Firefighter]

Who cares what makes the bb fly as long as you get to play.

[Kraut]

As long as it chronos in limits, whats the issue?

[snorkelman]

so long as whats powering it is legal to use and the power it kicks out is less than the field limits I cant see any grounds not to allow them (other than he might not like loads of empty silver caplets lying around if folks arent tidy with their empties)

 

Sure theres plnety of 3 and four foot pound air pistols and 10 or 12 foot pound air rifles using caplets, but if thats going to be basis for a ban then he might as well ban springs - after all they're used in high powered air rifles (even well into fire-arms-certificate-only power levels like 20 and 30 foot pounds), they can be easily swapped in game on a lot of guns etc. too

 

The only gun I could see any problem with would be those running adjustable valves (ie the We and Wa rifle designs) as you can get a whole range of adjustment out of those both inside and outside UK limits (and they already have that potential just running green gas never mind CO2), but even then I wouldn't regard those variable systems as any worse than a quick change spring

 

trouble airsoft has is that manufacs who do CO2 mags always seem hell bent on having them chuck out more power than their propane mags, even though thats not the only use for CO2 mags, so its a reputation thats stuck.

 

bottom line though - 'his site his rules' ..just dont forget same applies to 'your money, your custom' too

[Philbucknall]

as above if it's in the limits for that site = should be able to use it.

[Rob15]

Fair points snorkelman, the one about people just dropping the capsules is the best and most sensible reason for not allowing Co2 that I've heard, although you can also flip it and say people can't have almost anything else because they might litter the site.

 

As you say, the site owners say is the last say so if I do get my UZI under 1j and I fancy skirmishing with it I will vote with my wallet and feet and go to sites where I know common sense will be applied to it.

[Punkypink]

heheh if we ban things that emit CO2 from the site, there'd be no players because humans are banned as well

[3vi1-D4n]

The site owner by any reasoning, should not ban your gun if it shoots under the field limits (its actually quite easy to lower the power of the Mini UZI down to 1J).

 

However what we have issues here is that even if our field limits at 450fps, we have noobs buying cheap CO2 powered pistols that shoot at 450fps. By rule, its not "wrong", but given most pistol engagement ranges are under 15m, at 450fps it does a lot of damage, and noobs don't have the experience to have courtesy to follow MEDs.

 

Hence we have a "CO2 powered pistols are not allowed" policy. Even NBB pistols are frowned upon because of exactly the fact that 99% of pistol engagements are sub 15m/50ft, having a 400fps pistol is just plain damaging.

 

 

[Stealthbomber]

One of the things that gives me the creeps about classic guns is all those external rigs with their adjustable regulators within easy reach.

 

I mean, if you had a gun such as a VSR10 that'd been modified to work with a small external CO2 system I think it'd be irresistable to at least experiment with what happens when you crank up the PSI just to see what extra range it gives you. Then, in a game...

 

Can't really see any problems at all with capsule-powered CO2 guns.

As long as they're below the site limit the power source isn't relevant IMO.

It worries me more to read stories about people deliberately wrapping gas mags in gel hand-warmers in order to give them an extra bit of power when you first put them in the gun.

[snorkelman]

Main issue with discarded caplets is that they're relatively small and not that easy to see - on a hard surface stepping on a couple of them can suddenly find you riding along on top of a mini rollerskate

 

to be fair to him (though I doubt its his reasoning) theres one potential issue with CO2 mags that green etc dont have to contend with and that would be failure in the pressure regulation.

 

On your average green gas mag the full pressure of the propellant is put to use, so the maximum FPS acheived (short of a rapid ambient temp increase) is going to be max you can get out of it

 

On a CO2 mag only a fraction of the available pressure is used to power the shot (eg 160 PSI out of a potential 850) as the internals of the mag act as a big pressure restrictor.

 

If the mag internals were to break down then you could conceivably find yourself with far greater pressure than expected to suddenly deal with. Not anywhere near the 850 (if it got to anywhere near that stage then the hammer just couldnt open the valve and the seals would likely blow) but 200 or 250 PSI could be enough to allow the gun to still function and ruin someones day.

 

Course likleyhood of it in practice is next to nil, but in theory it is a potential issue that might give some insurers a sleepless night or two.

 

Far as the Uzi goes if you're looking to get it under 1 joule with CO2 mag then removing the mag valve getting the ports braized up and then redrilling them in a smaller size (ie lo-flowing the valve) is one way to do it and can work quite well. Only downside is its on a 'per mag' basis rather than 'one fix does all'. Basically measure up the original valve ports braze them shut and then redrill new ones starting at half the original size - then its just trial and error opening them up a little at a time till you hit the level you want.

 

[Rob15]

Hence we have a "CO2 powered pistols are not allowed" policy. Even NBB pistols are frowned upon because of exactly the fact that 99% of pistol engagements are sub 15m/50ft, having a 400fps pistol is just plain damaging.

In the case of such sites that seems fair, i know KWC did an export range of their newer Co2 NBBs that are said to put out 450fps and in the UK they retail (or at least the 1j versions do) for something like £55 which is cheaper than just about anything so i can't imagine how cheap they are in other countries.

 

In the UK though with most fps limits being 328 - 350fps and MEDs not applying to standard guns thats not really an issue, it basically comes down to the fps and not much else here.

 

One of the things that gives me the creeps about classic guns is all those external rigs with their adjustable regulators within easy reach.

Indeed, that is a bit of an iffy area which is why i stuck to fixed power guns. In the case of guns with adjustable regs or adjustable bolts then other precautions should be in place such as a sticker over 2 halves of a body or regulator fixed in some way and/or random chrono checks to try and pick people out who might abuse the system if those sorts of guns are allowed on site.

 

EDIT : On the points of bringing the UZI down, i've considered low flow valves, weaker springs, green gas mods etc but sadly all of those would effect the recoil which really would be a shame, i do however have another mod in mind which would not effect recoil but reduce power, only time (and a lot of money) will tell if it works as planned though

 

I think if the internal reg in the mag went as well i'd probably notice when the next shot puts my shoulder out of joint from the recoil

[3vi1-D4n]

Else you do what KWC and WA did to the Mini UZi and just deliberately mould obstruction bits the floating valve, and blocks the exit velocity of the gas. Hence no need to mod each mag.

 

[snorkelman]

One of the things that gives me the creeps about classic guns is all those external rigs with their adjustable regulators within easy reach.

 

tbh you'ld likely have much more of an issue with the home modded VSR than you would with an original classic as they tend to be quite well though out as far as safeguards go when it comes to power capabilities, whereas a home modded gas conversion wont generally have taken that sort of thing into account.

 

eg on JACs theres a bleed off on the main trigger valve and unless thats been deliberately tampered with you just wont get high power out the gun no matter how high you crank the output from the tank, instead it'll just bleed off

 

Some japanese market sun project M16s will see the system pressure locked before you get near 1 joule, and even stock YE or export Escort based guns need higher strength recoil springs in order to kick the FPS up significantly (with minimum reliable FPS increasing along with it). ie you have a sort of FPS envelope with Escort based guns

 

All of those are easy to test for at chrono stage - the JACs etc just crank the pressure up - if its hitting 400 FPS on .20s its been modded dont allow it to be feilded

 

Likewise the escorts - drop the operating pressure down - if it cant reliably cycle on semi while sitting at a pressure that kicks out say 280 FPS at the chrono then its likely got a high strength spring (that said getting an escort to clock over 1 foot pound isnt generally a trivial task anyway).

[Stealthbomber]

All of those are easy to test for at chrono stage - the JACs etc just crank the pressure up - if its hitting 400 FPS on .20s its been modded dont allow it to be feilded

True enough.

I wonder how many sites would be savvy enough to actually test that though?

Half the sites I go to don't even bother to chrono pistols.

 

Also, I imagine a responsible classic owners POV would simply be "Yeah, it will go above 1J but I'm not gonna cheat" and, in that case, it seems kinda unfair to deny the person a game on the basis that they could cheat.

 

Also, at the risk of digressing slightly, at this point you usually get some classic owner arrive and start talking about how all of airsoft is based on honour so there's nothing wrong with relying on honour to stop people adjusting regulators etc.

I disagree.

More convention forms of cheating don't create any extra risk on the field. A person cheating by adjusting the power of their gun IS increasing the risk.

That's not something that I'm comfortable leaving in the hands of an individuals honour.

[Azulsky]

I would think a sensible person chronoing a gun would at least ask for the pressure to be turned up when chronoing the gun. They are rare enough that its not been a problem i suppose. On the Escort A-Spec(stronger spring) i couldnt push it over 360. I find it funny there has been more worry about guns like the PTW at US events while i have heard nothing bad about classics.

 

I dont think you will find diehard Asahi/JAC users messing with their guns mid game because they are very much stuck at their FPS if im not mistaken. Especially if they have an LRB which is a permanent setting that needs a certain weight bb and pressure for it to function right. Messing with any guns FPS mid game will result in the same thing. I dont think i am overthinking this either because all of the classic users i have known via the net have a damn good understanding of how the system works and wouldnt in right mind bodge it by adding more pressure. I also think for the most part such cheating methods are not the work of people who go out and by niche guns like that and put a mint into them.

[renegadecow]

If you think banning CO2 guns just because of their power source is ridiculous, there are several sites here that ban the use of bolt action rifles regardless of power output or power source. Even if you show up with a china shell-ejecting Kar98 springer, they'd outright kick you out. The reason for the bannage: "Bolt action rifles are snipers and are too powerful".

[darkhold]

I wouldn't care if someone bottled their own flatulence, pressurized it, and powered their replica with it. as long as the replica shot below field limits.

My best argument for CO2 powered guns, particularly sidearms, is their ability to function reliably in cold weather. my buddies' KWC Sigma 40F will operate flawlessy at 20 degrees Fahrenheit and below. While this sidearm is not an ideal example for meeting field limits as it shoots hard enough to be disallowed at most sites, even in the US, but it does show why some users choose CO2 powered weapons.

[warpath]

co2 powered guns shouldn't be allowed. first of all the co2 cannot be controlled, for instance say it was a hot day about 95 degrees, welll the seals in the co2 guns magazines will expand from the heat, thus increasing the amount of co2 going to each shot, so on 95 degree day you could be shooting like 500+ fps with your pistol!!!! thats like droppping a nuc on the airsoft community. Also for those of you who say"well if it shoots in the limit than it should be fine" NO not ok, we all check in to play airsoft at what 10:00 in the morning? welll obviously its cooler in the morning so they will be low, once the day continues it gets hotter, making the gun shoot higher, then everybody would have to get there gun rechronoed, and thats just a mess.

[Stealthbomber]

co2 powered guns shouldn't be allowed. first of all the co2 cannot be controlled, for instance say it was a hot day about 95 degrees, welll the seals in the co2 guns magazines will expand from the heat, thus increasing the amount of co2 going to each shot, so on 95 degree day you could be shooting like 500+ fps with your pistol!!!! thats like droppping a nuc on the airsoft community.

Heat affects normal gas more than CO2.

[warpath]

Heat affects normal gas more than CO2.

 

 

no it doesnt, because in co2 magazines they have seals that control the gas leak into each shot, in normal gas there is a pin that hits the gas realease valve just enough to be shooting at what it is set to be shooting at.

[Stealthbomber]

no it doesnt, because in co2 magazines they have seals that control the gas leak into each shot, in normal gas there is a pin that hits the gas realease valve just enough to be shooting at what it is set to be shooting at.

We'll start with the basics....

 

The Earth is not flat.

 

Tune in tomorrow for more startling revelations.

[3vi1-D4n]

no it doesnt, because in co2 magazines they have seals that control the gas leak into each shot, in normal gas there is a pin that hits the gas realease valve just enough to be shooting at what it is set to be shooting at.

 

You mean it has a built in Regulator? I am actually unsure, I work on airguns a lot and there are no "regulators" built in.

 

Er...Aren't you arguing your own point?

 

co2 powered guns shouldn't be allowed. first of all the co2 cannot be controlled, for instance say it was a hot day about 95 degrees, welll the seals in the co2 guns magazines will expand from the heat, thus increasing the amount of co2 going to each shot, so on 95 degree day you could be shooting like 500+ fps with your pistol!!!!

 

But it doesn't really matter. Propane rifle performance also varies with temperature, so the same argument applies with gas guns as it does with CO2.

 

The only thing I do have against CO2 is CO2 pistols with rifle FPS. While this may go into debates of what is considered a pistol and what is a rifle etc, fact is pistols are used for short range engagements and should not have the full power of rifles (I am looking at it from my point of view of >350-400fps classed as rifles).

 

 

[darkhold]

co2 powered guns shouldn't be allowed. first of all the co2 cannot be controlled, for instance say it was a hot day about 95 degrees, welll the seals in the co2 guns magazines will expand from the heat, thus increasing the amount of co2 going to each shot, so on 95 degree day you could be shooting like 500+ fps with your pistol!!!! thats like droppping a nuc on the airsoft community. Also for those of you who say"well if it shoots in the limit than it should be fine" NO not ok, we all check in to play airsoft at what 10:00 in the morning? welll obviously its cooler in the morning so they will be low, once the day continues it gets hotter, making the gun shoot higher, then everybody would have to get there gun rechronoed, and thats just a mess.

The same can be said of green gas or propane filled mags. Are you proposing all gas guns be disallowed because it's hot outside?

 

no it doesnt, because in co2 magazines they have seals that control the gas leak into each shot, in normal gas there is a pin that hits the gas realease valve just enough to be shooting at what it is set to be shooting at.

what are you smoking? CO2 magazines use valves just like any other mag.

 

We'll start with the basics....

 

The Earth is not flat.

 

Tune in tomorrow for more startling revelations.

Lol.

 

The only thing I do have against CO2 is CO2 pistols with rifle FPS. While this may go into debates of what is considered a pistol and what is a rifle etc, fact is pistols are used for short range engagements and should not have the full power of rifles (I am looking at it from my point of view of >350-400fps classed as rifles).

agreed. it is my feeling that any pistol should be shooting no higher than 350 fps. if i am using my sidearm, it is at ranges generally around 30ft, sometimes less.

[Stealthbomber]

agreed. it is my feeling that any pistol should be shooting no higher than 350 fps. if i am using my sidearm, it is at ranges generally around 30ft, sometimes less.

Well....

 

I keep saying this but if I was the king of airsoft I'd make it the law that pistols all shoot at, say, 270fps. SMGs shoot at the same (cos real-steel SMGs usually use pistol ammo) sort of fps. Maybe 280fps maximum. 330 fps for assault rifles and 370fps for large calibre rifles.

Obviously that applies to the UK only and in other countries it'd be up to people to sort out their own system.

 

In any case, point is that it shouldn't matter what the propellant is as long as it's within the site rules.

I definitely don't want to be shot by a 420fps Sigma and that's nothing to do with the propellant.