Do you think Co2 capsule powered guns should be allowed in skirmishes?

[snorkelman]

It's a bit of a different story for a gun that uses an adjustable regulator. A cheat could (assuming they're suing a gun that can be dialled up above site limits) easily increase the pressure with a turn of the regulator and then dial it back again during the walk back to the SZ.

 

except that most use an allen key too, add to that you can get a regulator lock cover and you could always insist that any regulator used has a pressure guage on it - chronod at 320 a label attached with psi noted, stopped during play? let me see the current pressure on your gauge - if its higher than at time of chrono its a slam dunk that someones been fiddling in game. Instant verification and even easier than taking a suspect AEG back to safe zone for rechronoing.

 

in all honesty though the idea of an infinitely adjustable gun just at turn of a reg is 90 percent myth and 10 percent reality. Very few guns can acept that range of pressure adjustment and still function - and in the UK at least you wouldn't want to be in possession of one that can - cos if you're sat with a full auto JAC with the bleed off blocked etc then you'ld have far more serious things potentially hanging over your head if it ever got seized for testing than prospect of getting pulled up on a random chrono check

[Stealthbomber]

except that most use an allen key too, add to that you can get a regulator lock cover and you could always insist that any regulator used has a pressure guage on it - chronod at 320 a label attached with psi noted, stopped during play? let me see the current pressure on your gauge - if its higher than at time of chrono its a slam dunk that someones been fiddling in game. Instant verification and even easier than taking a suspect AEG back to safe zone for rechronoing.

Uhuh,

 

I was really making the point that it's not really feasible to expect to get away with swapping an AEG completely or swapping the cylinder in an ICS or Systema M4.

 

If the pressure can be easily altered on a gas gun it's more ambiguous whereas it's kinda hard to explain how different mechanical parts got into your gun during the day.

[Rob15]

And that makes it any less of a problem?

 

Tom.

Well you seem to be suggesting its an issue with Co2 guns.

 

STTI/KJ MK23 costs about the same (or did when i got mine) as even the cheapest Co2 pistols, you could easily get 2 and reduce the power on one for the chrono. Infact you can take it even further, whats to stop someone chronoing a gun on 134a then skirmishing it with green gas? Co2 is Co2, if its non adjustable then you can't just magically find some more powerfull Co2 capsules to stick in.

 

But thats not the point of this thread, it was not started as anything to do with cheating, it was started to see if people think Co2 guns that DO chrono under the sites limits and are fixed velocity should be banned from sites or allowed. Thats what the poll is about, its nothing to do with cheating, its about being fair with power sources.

[L4byr1nth]

Maybe it should be looked at by the marshalling team on the day of the skirmish?

 

Provided they've got a fairly good knowledge of current airsoft models, they could have a chrono 'list'.

 

When people book in at the start of the day (or even during the safety brief - Marshals could make a note of who has what), they could be given a tag number, and asked what kind of guns they were going to field that day (or maybe just their primary?).

 

Marshals then build up a list of likely candidates for a random chrono check, based on the guns with the highest probability of being close to the limit, or even above it.

 

It is a game of honour, and players are asked to voluntarily notify a marshal in the safezone if they change guns, and the marshal then amends the list? The guy in the safezone then radios two names from the list, one from each team, per hour to the marshals in the field, who radio the results back.

 

In the event of an FPS complaint, the list could give a good idea of the likely candidates.

 

This might help a lot of siteowners to accept CO2 as safe, although I admit, for smaller sites, it might be time-consuming to implement.

 

Ben.

[Rob15]

Maybe it should be looked at by the marshalling team on the day of the skirmish?

 

Provided they've got a fairly good knowledge of current airsoft models, they could have a chrono 'list'.

 

When people book in at the start of the day (or even during the safety brief - Marshals could make a note of who has what), they could be given a tag number, and asked what kind of guns they were going to field that day (or maybe just their primary?).

SYA have done that in the past actually, infact i'm pretty sure it was done every time i was there where guns had to be tested in the morning and they'd have a list of everyone booked in that day where they'd write the make and model of the gun and the fps it was doing when tested, now if a site is already doing that then just sticking a little note at the side of the page to say a certain gun was running on Co2 it wouldn't add much extra work at all.

[L4byr1nth]

Yeah, just make sure they're random checked at least once?

 

Another alternative, if you're playing timed respawns and the game is a longer, multi-objective scenario, might be to have a chrono set up at the spawn for each team.

 

Before you're allowed to spawn, you have to run the gun through the chrono, and the marshalls record the results?

 

I think random would be more effective against cheating, but the respawn way is like a constant check on the gas and CO2 guns?

 

Ben.

[Choobert]

I personally hadn't cared about Co2 until I bought a Co2 mag for my WE SCAR. I still used Propane more though.

[galactica]

And that makes it any less of a problem?

 

Tom.

 

it makes it a non-problem, or you might as well not have skirmishing at all.

[tom_chant_uk]

it makes it a non-problem, or you might as well not have skirmishing at all.

 

So would you turn a blind eye to other forms of cheating?

 

Tom.

[cazboab]

No I think what they're saying is you can't ban CO2 guns on the fact someone might chrono it then use a higher fps example of the same model in game, due to the fact that could be done with any gun at all, spring, AEG, GBB, NBB, crossbow...

[GuzziHero]

Uhh...no.

 

What hes saying is, that its not an issue that you can blame JUST on CO2 guns.

 

Whats to stop someone taking 2 STAR SLRs, for example...one downgraded to 1J, the other stock at 430fps...chronoing one, then getting out the other for play?

 

That has nothing to do with ignoring cheating, and a lot to do with such a form of cheating not being exclusive to CO2 guns.

[Samm]

So would you turn a blind eye to other forms of cheating?

I think galactica is simply proposing that proper enforcement and correct effient running of a site during events would work better, rather than just banning something that could be easily dealt with.

 

You don't by any chance work for the Labour government, tom_chant_uk?

 

[darkhold]

...due to the fact that could be done with any gun at all, spring, AEG, GBB, NBB, crossbow...

 

Who makes an airsoft crossbow?

[tom_chant_uk]

Did I say it was an issue limited to CO2 guns?

 

Stop putting words in my mouth.

 

Dismissing it as a non-issue is frankly retarded.

 

It IS more relevant to CO2 guns as aside from cheapsoft weapons, what skirmishable RIFs come firing stock well over site and legal limits?

 

Tom.

[Rob15]

Well it was you that came into a thread asking about Co2 guns being allowed in skirmishes and saying "Whats to stop someone buying 2 Co2 pistols etc" and made it look as if you were saying the issue only applies to Co2 guns when as pointed out many times above it does not.

 

The purpose of this thread isn't about cheating, we know cheating can happen and it can happen with just about any guns running from any power source, thats not the point i've been getting at. Its about not allowing guns that meet site limits on the basis that 'they're co2', saying they should be banned on the basis that someone could buy two doesn't really hold any water as far as an argument against them goes for the reasons posted above.

[Stealthbomber]

Did I say it was an issue limited to CO2 guns?

 

Stop putting words in my mouth.

 

Dismissing it as a non-issue is frankly retarded.

 

It IS more relevant to CO2 guns as aside from cheapsoft weapons, what skirmishable RIFs come firing stock well over site and legal limits?

 

Tom.

Who says the gun needs to be stock?

 

I mean, anybody who's determined enough to cheat that they are prepared to buy a 2nd weapon to have chronoed wouldn't think twice about upgrading their hot gun as well.

If it was me that'd be exactly what I would do. Act like a noob with a Marui M4 and then swap it for another Marui M4 that has the bejesus upgraded out of it internally.

 

You've made the point that somebody can swap a 1J CO2 gun for a high powered CO2 gun and yet don't seem acknowledge that the same case could be made about ANY airsoft gun.

 

Furthermore you're advocating banning CO2 guns on the above grounds without offering any suggestion for how the threat of other upgraded duplicate guns (an issue which I suspect is pretty-much non-existant BTW) could be policed.

 

Basically, it's like watching a riot on TV and then suggesting all black people should be deported cos they get into riots while, in case it wasn't clear, ignoring the fact that 95% of the other people in the riot were white.

[3vi1-D4n]

Basically, it's like watching a riot on TV and then suggesting all black people should be deported cos they get into riots while, in case it wasn't clear, ignoring the fact that 95% of the other people in the riot were white.

 

Must be talking about Soccer Not the immigrant riots.

[tom_chant_uk]

To be perfectly honest, I cannot really be bothered to argue with you all.

 

You are insistant on putting words into my mouth and making claims that have in no way implied nor stated.

 

Fact is, CO2 guns can come firing at idiotic fps levels straight out of the box (aside from cheapsoft weapons) which could be likely to be in the hands of players without any idea of the potential power nor access to a chrono, and in the case of CO2 pistols just use them in game without chronoing nor asking site staff and could casuse serious injury.

 

Case in point, Rob15, your Mini Uzi firing at 468fps! Full auto, over the legal limits and possibly section 5 firearm?!?

 

Now say a complete newbie buys one of these, takes it to a site that does not chrono pistols or sidearms and lights some unlucky person within CQB range (i.e. extremely close)? Oh but that doesn't matter because the same could happen with AEG's.

 

Tom.

[Stealthbomber]

Now say a complete newbie buys one of these, takes it to a site that does not chrono pistols or sidearms and lights some unlucky person within CQB range (i.e. extremely close)? Oh but that doesn't matter because the same could happen with AEG's.

 

Tom.

Ok, now THAT is a point of view that I can work with.

 

On a site where guns aren't routinely chronoed at the start of the day you're right. I wouldn't be happy to see a CO2 gun.

In that case I'd go up to the owner and say "Hey mate, do ya mind getting that chronoed cos I know some CO2 guns can be a bit hot".

If the owner got a strop on I'd have to assume he had something to hide and I'd take it to a marshal or the site owner.

 

In a case like that I think we all have a right and a responsibility to act as marshals on our own site.

 

maybe people misunderstood you before but it seemed as though you were saying ONLY CO2 guns should arbitrarily be banned from skirmishes on the assumption that a 2nd gun could be substituted after chronoing.

That's just bonkers.

 

If you're at a site where guns aren't chronoed to your satisfaction then I can understand how you're not happy with CO2 guns.

If you're at a site where they ignore you if you try to ask about a CO2 gun then, frankly, you should probably find another site to play at.

 

I think the point is that it isn't really the fault of a CO2 gun. The danger or dodginess is created by the way sites and players deal with chronoing.

 

To digress slightly, I'm surprised there's so much discussion regarding chronoing.

Every site I've been to (all 4 or 5 of them) have chronoed every primary at the start of the day as you file into the SZ for the safety briefing.

The closest I've come to a dodgy session was at Alpha 55 where they didn't bother chronoing pistols.

Even so, a couple of pistols were asked to be chronoed after people got hosed by guns such as M93s and G18s at close range.

[MDK_Marshal]

*missinformed junk*

 

 

You know what also comes out of the box at hot FPS? DAMN NEAR EVERYTHING.

 

Almost anything not manufactured for the Japanese market will invariably be shooting hot. Most pistols will chuck out at LEAST 330 fps on green, depending on temperature. Systema will happily sell you a range 550fps+ guns. Any clone you care to pick (with the exception of ones specifically downgraded at the factory for someone) will be firing at least 400 fps. Most of the guns made by big name manufacturers will be firing hot.

 

If we're putting words in your mouth, you're spouting ill-informed tripe to begin with.

 

Yes, some n00b could buy a hot gun and hurt somebody with it. But, this is why there are such things as chrono checks. To ensure that hot guns don't get used, especially by idiots who have no clue what they're doing.

 

You argument is fundamentally flawed and stupid. Lets take an example; DPM is sold to us, the consumer, in such a way that somebody could use it to strangle babies. We don't normally check that people would or would not strangle babies with DPM, so let's ban all DPM! It's the only logical course of action!

 

SERIOUSLY. A power source is a power source. Yes, a gun CAN come out of the factory at a hot FPS on said power source. However, it could not come out of the factory like that, or the owner could downgrade it; EXACTLY what rob intends to do, I might add. In addition to this, simply due to the gun being CO2 powered, people at sites will be wary of it, due to the reputation for it's high power. This will either prevent the gun being used, or ensure that it's chrono'd. I fail to see the problem with this; if it's firing too hot, there's two things that can happen; the site owner says "nah, no CO2 guns", and it' not used, or it's chrono'd and the site oner says "500 fps? you're not using that!", and again, it's not used.

 

If it' firing under the site limits, then again two things can happen; It'll get refused as above, just for being CO2, or it'll get chrono'd and allowed.

[galactica]

Why "aside from cheapsoft weapons"? Any dealer will tell you that they are now more then 60% of the market in the UK , so why are you excluding them from your argument, such as it is? Rob's KWC Uzi is probably the only one sold in this country this year, by comparison.

 

What sites don't chrono automatic sub machine guns? None i've ever been to. Only, this is now your argument because it is plainly far more likely that someone is going to buy two chinese AEGs and perform the ol' switcheroo, than for the same to be happening with rare & exotic CO2 weapons.

 

It's time to realise that your argument doesn't hold water, and move the thread back on to its original purpose.

[tom_chant_uk]

You know what also comes out of the box at hot FPS? DAMN NEAR EVERYTHING.

 

Almost anything not manufactured for the Japanese market will invariably be shooting hot. Most pistols will chuck out at LEAST 330 fps on green, depending on temperature. Systema will happily sell you a range 550fps+ guns. Any clone you care to pick (with the exception of ones specifically downgraded at the factory for someone) will be firing at least 400 fps. Most of the guns made by big name manufacturers will be firing hot.

 

If we're putting words in your mouth, you're spouting ill-informed tripe to begin with.

 

Yes, some n00b could buy a hot gun and hurt somebody with it. But, this is why there are such things as chrono checks. To ensure that hot guns don't get used, especially by idiots who have no clue what they're doing.

 

You argument is fundamentally flawed and stupid. Lets take an example; DPM is sold to us, the consumer, in such a way that somebody could use it to strangle babies. We don't normally check that people would or would not strangle babies with DPM, so let's ban all DPM! It's the only logical course of action!

 

SERIOUSLY. A power source is a power source. Yes, a gun CAN come out of the factory at a hot FPS on said power source. However, it could not come out of the factory like that, or the owner could downgrade it; EXACTLY what rob intends to do, I might add. In addition to this, simply due to the gun being CO2 powered, people at sites will be wary of it, due to the reputation for it's high power. This will either prevent the gun being used, or ensure that it's chrono'd. I fail to see the problem with this; if it's firing too hot, there's two things that can happen; the site owner says "nah, no CO2 guns", and it' not used, or it's chrono'd and the site oner says "500 fps? you're not using that!", and again, it's not used.

 

If it' firing under the site limits, then again two things can happen; It'll get refused as above, just for being CO2, or it'll get chrono'd and allowed.

 

Try reading my post properly before you want to try to insult me

 

Did I state that CO2 should be banned? No.

Did I state that AEG's/GBB's/NBB's are not ever hot from the box? No.

 

Tom.

[tom_chant_uk]

Why "aside from cheapsoft weapons"? Any dealer will tell you that they are now more then 60% of the market in the UK , so why are you excluding them from your argument, such as it is? Rob's KWC Uzi is probably the only one sold in this country this year, by comparison.

 

What sites don't chrono automatic sub machine guns? None i've ever been to. Only, this is now your argument because it is plainly far more likely that someone is going to buy two chinese AEGs and perform the ol' switcheroo, than for the same to be happening with rare & exotic CO2 weapons.

 

It's time to realise that your argument doesn't hold water, and move the thread back on to its original purpose.

 

Because it is a given that cheapsoft AEG's are hot out of the box and retailers should be downgrading them before selling them to avoid the possibilty of being prosecuted for selling a potential section 5 firearm. Whereas CO2 automatics are not necessarily that easy to downgrade.

 

It's all moot at the end of the day as the decision to allow CO2 weapons is solely the site owners, whether you agree with their decision or not.

 

Tom.

[galactica]

Because it is a given that cheapsoft AEG's are hot out of the box and retailers should be downgrading them before selling them to avoid the possibilty of being prosecuted for selling a potential section 5 firearm. Whereas CO2 automatics are not necessarily that easy to downgrade.

 

It's all moot at the end of the day as the decision to allow CO2 weapons is solely the site owners, whether you agree with their decision or not.

 

Tom.

 

Er...right. And what, in your opinion, qualifies an airsoft gun to be a section 5 firearm?

[Stealthbomber]

Er...right. And what, in your opinion, qualifies an airsoft gun to be a section 5 firearm?

Probably that it's a self-loading or automatic (capable of discharging more than one shot with a single operation of the trigger) weapon with muzzle energy in excess of 1 ft/lb.

 

That's kinda what the law says.