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Do you think Co2 capsule powered guns should be allowed in skirmishes?


Rob15

  

137 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you think Co2 capsule powered guns should be allowed in skirmishes?

    • Yes, but only if they are subject to the same fps limits and checking as any other gun would be
      128
    • No! Co2 is the power source of the devil himself and should be banzord outright!
      9


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Probably that it's a self-loading or automatic (capable of discharging more than one shot with a single operation of the trigger) weapon with muzzle energy in excess of 1 ft/lb.

 

That's kinda what the law says.

 

With all due respect, Stealthie, i'm asking Tom_Chant what he considers to be a section 5 firearm.

 

*edit* Now he's taken your cue, another lovely genie out of the bottle.

 

So, all all AEGs with full auto capability sold in the UK that exceed 370ish fps with a .20 BB, are section 5 firearms. All dealers are breaking the law by selling them.

 

*head in hands*

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With all due respect, Stealthie, i'm asking Tom_Chant what he considers to be a section 5 firearm.

 

As Stealthbomber said, any self-loading or automatic airsoft gun (even if modified to be single shot only) firing over 1ft/lb which if I recall correctly, is approximately 377fps could be classed as a section 5 firearm.

 

And I explicity used the words 'potential', 'possibly' and 'could' as there has never been a test case.

 

Tom.

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So, all all AEGs with full auto capability sold in the UK that exceed 370ish fps with a .20 BB, are section 5 firearms. All dealers are breaking the law by selling them.

 

*head in hands*

That's precisely how I understood it when the whole VCRB hullabaloo started. And I'm not even British.

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Case in point, Rob15, your Mini Uzi firing at 468fps! Full auto, over the legal limits and possibly section 5 firearm?!?

 

Now say a complete newbie buys one of these, takes it to a site that does not chrono pistols or sidearms and lights some unlucky person within CQB range (i.e. extremely close)? Oh but that doesn't matter because the same could happen with AEG's. <_<:rolleyes:

Well for a start the UZI now does a massive 0fps, potentially as it was stock it could be a section 5 but it is a big grey area with iirc another section of the firearms laws which would exclude it. But as it is now it won't even fire because the main internal parts are sitting in an office at an engineering company as i speak being priced up for new machined restricted flow parts.

 

I'd like to point out though that the Mini UZI isn't really a sidearm (Its an SMG), its much bigger than say a Desert Eagle or MK23 even before you fold the stock out so should be chronoed with other guns if one were to turn up to a site, the gun itself costs £200 and the cheapest holster i can find is about £200 as well so its hardly a newbie choice for a sidearm either.

 

If i took it to a site though that would allow me to use it i would make a point of having a marshall chrono the gun, if i wasnt asked to chrono it i would ask for it to be done.

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What about moscarts? some of them run on co2....

Don't get me started on Moscarts...

 

A moscart that fires 120 0.2g BBs at 150fps is actually shooting at 18ft/lbs. Well over the legal limit for a non-FAC air rifle, never mind a non-lethal device. :P

 

Well for a start the UZI now does a massive 0fps, potentially as it was stock it could be a section 5 but it is a big grey area with iirc another section of the firearms laws which would exclude it.

Indeedy,

 

There is. IIRC, a paragraph at the top of the section on air weapons that specifically states that air weapons designed to be non-lethal, as used in wargames, should be excluded from the remit of the Firearms Act.

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*edit* Now he's taken your cue, another lovely genie out of the bottle.

 

So, all all AEGs with full auto capability sold in the UK that exceed 370ish fps with a .20 BB, are section 5 firearms. All dealers are breaking the law by selling them.

 

*head in hands*

 

Read my damn posts *facepalm*

 

I didn't say they are, I SAID THEY COULD BE.

 

Any clearer? <_<

 

good, now we've established that, what the hell has it got to do with whether or not CO2 is allowed at skirmishes? Jeez.

 

You brought AEG's into the topic. I was merely pointing out the POTENTIAL hazard of SOME CO2 weapons and you basically dismissed them without thought by saying the same can be done with AEG's.

 

AFAIK 1 Joule is 328ish, 377ish is 1 ft/lb.

 

Still has eff-all to do with CO2 power at skirmishes, and whether mythical gun-swappers will swap CO2 guns but not AEGs.

 

Oh right, so CO2 automatics firing over 377fps do not exist :rolleyes: (see I can do the same too <_< ).

 

Do you have reading problems? I never said the same couldn't be done with AEG's, seeing as the issue is CO2 guns, that's why I focused on them.

 

Tom.

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There is. IIRC, a paragraph at the top of the section on air weapons that specifically states that air weapons designed to be non-lethal, as used in wargames, should be excluded from the remit of the Firearms Act.

 

The problem with that as I seem to remember reading that the government decided anything above this 1 ft/lb is considered lethal, again though a moot point as it's unproven in court.

 

I must admit I am beginning to be swayed towards the letting CO2 run free argument. I came into this topic naive in the thought that CO2 were often ridiculously overpowered and unsafe for use and was unaware of the multitude of weapons available that ran well within the site limits. I hate to bang on about it but I still believe that this very perception of CO2 is it's worst enemy.

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oh dear god.

 

it is BECAUSE exactly the same thing can be done with AEGs that your mythical swapping problem is NO MORE of a problem than it is with AEGs.

 

this thread is about INEQUAL treatment of AEGs and CO2 guns.

 

So, you're stating the obvious. There is a potential hazard with people swapping CO2 guns. Next up: potential hazard with falling down manholes, and some packs of peanuts may contain nuts.

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Bravo Rob without trying to sound vindictive it seems you have certainly opened up a Can of Worms. Regardless I voted for 'for' C02 it doesn't matter how I get hit (Except for people throwing said BB's obviously) it just matters that I've been hit fairly and by the rules so to speak.

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oh dear god.

 

it is BECAUSE exactly the same thing can be done with AEGs that your mythical swapping problem is NO MORE of a problem than it is with AEGs.

 

this thread is about INEQUAL treatment of AEGs and CO2 guns.

 

So, you're stating the obvious. There is a potential hazard with people swapping CO2 guns. Next up: potential hazard with falling down manholes, and some packs of peanuts may contain nuts.

 

Seeing as the thread is about CO2 guns, why do you keep bringing AEG's up?

 

I have NEVER stated that the same couldn't be done with AEG's :rolleyes:

 

So why are you inventing an arguement based on things I haven't said? <_<

 

As I've previously said, at the end of the day it's solely the site owners decision as to whether CO2 guns are allowed or not. Your childish whinging on here is not going to change their mind.

 

Tom.

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AFAIK 1 Joule is 328ish, 377ish is 1 ft/lb.

 

I don't know where the myth comes from but the oft quoted figure of 1 ft.lb being equal to 377fps with a 0.2 is wrong. It's just ever so slightly over 382fps. Not that I'd like to be shot at on full auto at those levels anyway :D

 

The 1 ft.lb limit has been quoted for s.5 firearms but has never been tested. Just as well really given the standard power levels of many Chinese clones :D I seem to recall that it's all to do with a possible lethality level and some very dodgy science.

 

D

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I don't know where the myth comes from but the oft quoted figure of 1 ft.lb being equal to 377fps with a 0.2 is wrong. It's just ever so slightly over 382fps. Not that I'd like to be shot at on full auto at those levels anyway :D

 

Off-topic for just a sec, the scary thing is that here in the US the generally accepted, national OP standards for Sniper rifles are MAX 3.32 Joules, 2.44 ft/lbs (equivalent to 447FPS w/ .36g BBs or 597 w/ .20g) with a 100 ft minimum firing distance.

 

THAT *suitcase* is something i don't want to be shot by.

 

And for aeg's and other non-sniper weapons: MAX 1.62 Joules / 1.19 ft/lbs(equivalent to 375FPS w/ .25g BBs or 419FPS w/ .20g BBs)

 

 

it doesn't matter how I get hit (Except for people throwing said BB's obviously)

oh? 'cause i can throw .25's @ 400fps B)

 

c'mon guys we really need to lighten the mood in this thread...

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The problem with that as I seem to remember reading that the government decided anything above this 1 ft/lb is considered lethal, again though a moot point as it's unproven in court.

In a court case I assume the defendant might rely on that caveat.

I mean, is a machine that shoots tennis balls a lethal weapon?

Could I take my tennis club to court if I got bruised after getting hit in the head while practicing my serves?

You'd argue that if an item isn't designed to kill stuff it shouldn't be measured against the firearm act.

Not saying it'd work mind you. I'm just saying that's how people think. :)

 

I must admit I am beginning to be swayed towards the letting CO2 run free argument. I came into this topic naive in the thought that CO2 were often ridiculously overpowered and unsafe for use and was unaware of the multitude of weapons available that ran well within the site limits. I hate to bang on about it but I still believe that this very perception of CO2 is it's worst enemy.

As I said before, I'm surprised there's so much controversy. Surely none of this fuss would happen at a site where every gun is chronoed as a matter of course?

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I've not read the whole of this post because it seems to be going around in circles but here's my opinion on CO2.

If it's proven to shoot under the site's FPS limit then I dont have a problem.

If it can be adjusted to shoot over the FPS then I do have a problem with it. By being adjusted I mean by using things like Madbull's CO2 adapter where you can set the PSI of the CO2 or some external rig with adjustable PSI.

 

As for the STI/KJW Mk.23 argument, It's a little flawed. They only do 450fps on green with that silly barrel extension screwed on. Without it they do a more realistic 330-350fps.

 

Now for my final thoughts.

If a site says they don't want something using on their site then that's there prerogative. It's their site and they are the ones held responsible if little Johnny gets hurt because little Jimmy breaks the rules. If the site sees banning a power source as an easy way to get around the problem of Jimmy easily braking the rules then so be it.

I've got a gun that has been banned at a site due to there being a way to fire it over the FPS but all that means I don't use that gun at that site. It doesn't mean I go on another forum trying to find people who agree with my point of view that it should be allowed.

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Surely none of this fuss would happen at a site where every gun is chronoed as a matter of course?

 

Perhaps not but the sites I frequent in the NW along with a few milsim weekenders here and there, I've never had my sidearm chronoed (I've done it myself at home purely out of interest) and at some places I go to no chroning is done at all; just they threaten random chronoing during the brief, which I've only ever had happen to me once (not that I'm just an odd one out I've just not really seen it done much). So really the truth is, my fear of being shot by a hot gun is placed in the fact I know some of my local sites (and personal favourite weekenders) don't take the chronoing seriously enough.

 

The argument then of course is: 'change site'. But it's just not feasible for me to do that (travel circumstances etc)

 

(If people want to know these sites, PM me, but I'm not posting them up on an open forum)

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I've got a gun that has been banned at a site due to there being a way to fire it over the FPS but all that means I don't use that gun at that site. It doesn't mean I go on another forum trying to find people who agree with my point of view that it should be allowed.

 

Just like how you don't voice your opinion on how one pretty medicore game should be a valid purchase for a games console? :rolleyes: I think it's been an interesting thread personally, and ironically has shown some insight to how much of a 'stigmata' a propellent has for Airsoft.

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As for the STI/KJW Mk.23 argument, It's a little flawed. They only do 450fps on green with that silly barrel extension screwed on. Without it they do a more realistic 330-350fps.

I understand what you're saying, but i'd say that makes it even worse.

 

You get a Co2 gun thats fixed and fires under limits on Co2 thats pretty much that, i'm not aware of any more powerfull gases being sold in the same size 12g capsules commercially.

 

Now if you get an STTI MK23 you could chrono it on 134a (with or without the mock silencer) and it should be within site limits, come actually skirmishing you can easily just fill the mag with green gas (LW quote them as 370 on green iirc) and if you want add the mock silencer for more fps. In that sense its more of a problem because the fps can be manipulated purely by screwing on a mock silencer and changing gases.

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