Standard v Midcap v Hicap

[uscmCorps]

It's a personal preference as you say: I act in a scout role for the team so I need to stay light. If I was in a regular rifleman role I probably wouldn't mind as much.

Yes, as a recon/scout you need to stay light, but you can still do so using midcaps/standards/locaps. Within my team of 25+ guys, I have a recon element that comprises of 3 to 4 guys. These guys are forced to traverse absolute harsh terrain all the time, climbing to high ground against steep inclines, sprinting ahead of the main force at full speed, all to get eyes on what we might be up against. And they love it. Some of them lighten their rig to the absolute bare essentials and go with half the mag loadout of a regular riflemen, some of them just suck it up, and have the same loadout as a rifleman (which is quite a lot of gear as we pack enough ammo, gear, food and water for a non-stop 8:30am to 4pm game in California heat). The way we play, we don't expect 4 man Recon/Scouts teams to fight off entire Platoons of 50+ guys. They're used to relay info, get to and secure objectives, hit and run tactics, and doing so while remaining as stealthy as possible.

They're basically my ninjas.

[SVT98driver]

I vote mid-caps, as my P-mags are THE best feeding mag i have ever used. However i have no problem with using a 30rder or a 450rd hi-cap borrowed from a teammate. AS LONG AS ITS FEEDS, ill use it.

I like to keep about 300rds in my 5.11 pocket pouchs for light duty, and then have 8mags for if i put on my weesatch when i wanna get something done

 

GOOD quality hi-caps need only one full wind to shoot the 300rds for M4 mag, and feed perfect. Like AE TM GG etc

Also i dont know about the rest of you, but people complaining about winding is dumb. If you had to load up, say 1000rds, which would take longer,

 

filling up a few hi-caps and turning the little wheels with your finger

OR

Using a speed loader to load up 10 mid-caps, pushing down with your thumb over and over again...lame

 

as far as rattling goes for hi-caps, has never gave me away before.

 

If a AK user wanted to have a ultra light load-out, he could have one hi-cap of 600 rds, and not have to carry any other mags or gear

 

.02$

[loki7491]

i have scan read through the thread, and the sailient point i am getting from you guys is

 

hi-caps = no skill

 

i would like to disagree, not just for the sake of it, i do have what i believe to be a reasonably valid point.

 

i shoot in many disciplines, airsoft, air rifles (targets and hunting), shotguns (clay and hunting), full bore 5.56/7.62/.50 (work related...... bet you can't guess who i work for!)

 

work related weapons have individual accuracy of circa 300m (assuming you're an okay shot), and they penetrate various forms of cover.

 

airsoft replicas have varying range - depending upgrades - and can penetrate precisely nothing!

 

the scenario

 

on the game site, i see you behind a barricade made of tin and tyres.

 

if using my work tools, i wouldn't need to wait for you to expose yourself (ahem), i would just select 'A' (for 'accurate') and rinse you through the cover - from a great distance!

 

airsoft replica's do not have the same range or penetrating power or muzzle velocity. we have all heard somebody shoot and take cover before the ammo reaches us, or seen the stream of bb's and simply side stepped them.

 

i think it reasonable to give a ratio of 10:1 for hits in favour of the bb.

 

so 300:30 works out nicely for hi-cap to real steel.

 

i don't think you are less skillful for using hicaps (unless you are a 1 mag, 1 kill kinda guy - in which case you shouldn't be allowed to operate AEG's...... or heavy machinery for that matter.

 

 

and for those of you who carry lows/mids on the pretence of weight saving, i would suggest that if a few extra plastic balls affect your performance so much you should probably spend your sundays in the gym, trying to man the *fruitcage* up!

 

 

[DrKalinka]

I think they mean using light vest. AKA, something that doesent restrict your mobility or makes a lot of noise. So they use only a belt with 2-3 mag pouches and some small other stuff and theyre golden.

 

Remember. Scouts arent supposed to stop unless they are observing or capturing something. So every last gramme counts if you are supposed to run the entire day.

[loki7491]

I think they mean using light vest. AKA, something that doesent restrict your mobility or makes a lot of noise. So they use only a belt with 2-3 mag pouches and some small other stuff and theyre golden.

 

Remember. Scouts arent supposed to stop unless they are observing or capturing something. So every last gramme counts if you are supposed to run the entire day.

 

 

that sort of thing doesn't happen in the real military - i am gobsmacked that people want to do it airsofting!

 

if i sent two of my boys forward to scout a route or capture something and then told them that before they go, they need to give me half their ammo so they can run faster, i would justifiably be told to *fruitcage* off!

 

we play airsoft on purpose built sites, with boundries, no binoculars needed to see the enemy. unless you know of a sight the size of wales, i fail to believe that scouts need to run around all day.

 

if they want to save weight, take 1 or 2 hi-caps. those filled will be less weighty than a load of empty mid/low caps. yes they rattle when running, about as loud as your foot striking the floor! they don't rattle when crawling or laying still!

 

any other points?

[SVT98driver]

Well said sir.

 

 

Also, a Weesatch with plastic sapi plates is really light. And i can still put over 1000's rds of just mid-caps in, throw in a mix of hi-caps, thats alot of ammo.

 

And just because i have say +1000rds, doesnt mean i hold the trigger alot. It means i can stay out on the field all day, without having to go back to HQ to refill all my mags.

[thewallhitme]

i agree with loki. highcaps dont mean you are a ###### player. and its way more efficient, so people who see this as a sport rather than a substitute for real world combat, would prefer to carry highcaps.

[DrKalinka]

Not all fields allow highcaps. Here in norway, you are allowed one hicap or as many lowcaps as you can be bothered to carry. Having just one mag is really a setback as that will leave you with about 200-500bbs. Carrying 10 mags also makes it a bit clumsy. If i were a scout and had to move silently, id have about 5 mags on myself, and leave a load to the support gunner so when he arrives, i have a nearly limitless supply of mags.

[uscmCorps]

i have scan read through the thread, and the sailient point i am getting from you guys is

 

hi-caps = no skill

I don't think that. I do think that it isn't as realistic though. When I see someone using a hiCap, I often envision old 80s Hollywood movies in which the hero shoots forever without having to reload. Case in point, the guy that walks onto the field with a single 1000 round AK hiCap and only that, versus the guy that walks onto the field with 10x100 round AK midcaps. Which of those two seems more realistic? Personally, between ROF, accuracy, and range I feel a 3:1 ratio of BB to RS rounds is fair. I shoot on semi most of the time as I like to make my shots count. I realize that there's a lot of players out there who don't call their hits, and that sucks for players that do. But when I come across a guy that doesn't call their hits, I don't wail on them till they call it, I walk away and if I see a marshal I may let them know to keep an eye on them. Back to the point about a single 1000 round hiCap vs 10x100 round midCaps, it's also about keeping the playing field as level as possible. The guy that has a single 1000 round hiCap is at a clear weight advantage compared to the guy that has 10x100 round midCaps. The hiCap user in that situation doesn't even need a chest rig. They can just grab their gun, maybe a hydration pack and go. The same cannot be said for the midCap user.

 

Another issue some people have with those using hiCaps, is the concern regarding the spray and pray players. Those are the players that change the game from MilSim to Speedball. Honestly, where's the fun in that. It wasn't fun for me during Paintball, and it's never been fun during airsoft. That's not to say all players using hicaps fall into that category, not by any means. It's the player that turns the game into Speedball, not the hiCap. But it's a common belief that when you restrict all players in an event from using hiCaps, you're less likely to see the game get turned into Speedball. And after 20 years of playing airsoft, I'm inclined to agree with that belief.

 

and for those of you who carry lows/mids on the pretence of weight saving, i would suggest that if a few extra plastic balls affect your performance so much you should probably spend your sundays in the gym, trying to man the *fruitcage* up!

I've carried 11 WA GBB mags, 6 liters of H2o, extra ammo, gas, a side arm, full tactical rig, full days worth of food ... that's not exactly what I call Scout/Recon Friendly. When my guys go recon, they often have full kit on. BUT, there are many scenarios in which we've had to play in deep bamboo forrests and I've sent my recon team crawling on their bellys for 100+ meters of scouting through dense "this f*cking sucks" foliage. In those circumstances, crawling with a low profile rig is simply a lot easier and faster.

 

we play airsoft on purpose built sites, with boundries, no binoculars needed to see the enemy. unless you know of a sight the size of wales, i fail to believe that scouts need to run around all day.

Actually, we do. We annually play several times at various events that feature hundreds of players and locations where you definitely need binos to see the opposition occasionally. The land masses we play on can be huge and can easily take in excess of an hour to traverse. There have been plenty of times I've been unable to determine an opposition's uniform by the naked eye ... and I've got somewhere between 20/15 and 20/10 vision thanks to Lasik. One of my favorite locations is a place called Tehachapi down here in Southern California featuring large rolling hills, valleys, a few mountains and a few streams. Some mornings dense fog. I've sent my recon team ahead of us about 100+ meters, or up the side of a mountain and they've been able to give us critical information that has allowed us to completely flank and attack a much larger force. My recon team physically works harder than the rest of the Platoon, they're sent on long range recons and expected to get back to us double timed, and expected to be able to repeat that all day. But they love it. These are guys that train year round to be top of their game. A couple of the guys get in shape by attending Iron Man triathlons.

 

Thinking that everyone is constrained by the same land limitations/playable areas is short sighted. When I played back in Hong Kong, land limitations were very obvious and we adjusted our team's play style accordingly. We didn't need Scout teams because either the Jungle was too dense or the area was too small to justify a Scout team. I imagine (from my Paintball days in the UK) that for you it's very similar. But there are plenty of places in the rest of the world that aren't limited by such extreme geographical restrictions. In those circumstances, Recon/Scout teams make a lot of sense.

[loki7491]

you make some very sensible points.

 

i am for hi-caps - i am NOT for 1 mag, 1 kill.

i agree that the 'battlefield' should be reasonably realistic, but there are limitations, and the books need to be balanced to compensate.

 

if i could shoot you from 100+ with the accuracy of real steal, then there would be a good argument for mids.

if coupled with that, there was method of determining penetration kills (i see you squat behind a window, and shoot the area immediately below the window for instance) then that would be an excellent argument for lows or real caps.

 

trouble is, the only way of ensuring those two situations is to use live ammo, granted it will sort the wheat from the chaff pretty swiftly, but i think site insurance will go through the roof - and when you shoot your buddy in the *albatross* cheek at point blank, he won't laugh about it!

 

but when a holly bush is sufficient to protect you from a pistol upto and including belt feds and bolt actions, then there needs to be a compromise.

 

i think the only way to balance the short comings of the range / accuracy thing is to use bursts.

 

in woodland, be sneaky, blend in, use as fewer shots as possible. when taking villages, simply not practicle.

 

when you are out playing, and to get to the safe zone takes 3 days on a fast donkey, which judging from your site descriptions could be the truth, do you really want to have to pull out of a crucial firefight cos you didn't pack enough balls in your webbing?

 

there is a saying we use at work when discussing what kit we may want to take out on patrols

 

"i'd rather be looking at it, than looking for it"

 

obviously task specific - not gonna want to take a box 7.62 link, when we're all carrying 5.56. likewise not gonna wanna take NVG's on a daylight patrol.

 

however, if on night time activities, and carrying a GPMG (general purpose machine gun (7.62)) i would rather the patrol had the NVG's and the link and not need them, rather than really need them and not have them.

 

if the *suitcase* hits the fan and we need to run away like little screaming girls make a tactical withdrawal, you dump everything except bullets and water....... ready to slaughter!

 

 

 

[jond36]

Everytime I get in a conversation with some Military and Law Enforcement guys. They always say what is so great about airsoft. I say realism. They say how is a winding 450 round magazine real for an M4. May just as well play paintball with a 200 round hopper.

 

Because most manufacturers send a hi-cap with the gun, I have to tell most guys the standard and midcaps even exsist.

 

Hi-Caps do ruin airsoft IMO. (Unless you have a Support gun of course. )

[Schultz98]

I like using midcaps just because the reloading part makes the game a little more stressfull.( I want to have a little bit of stress in a game simulating war). Loading under fire makes it alot more exiting and such.

 

BUTTTT on the topic of highcaps. I have 1 highcap mag, its my tokyo marui 250 rounder ak mag. I can shoot the ENTIRE mag on one full winding. So contrary to popular belief you can shoot at least the 250 rounder without continued winding. Idk It could just be the supperior build quality to all the other cheap chinese clone mags ive used that came witht he kalash and such but I love my TM highcap.

[Stealthbomber]

I think people often try to "spin" their reasons for prefering particular mags.

 

Let me tell you my reasoning:-

I'm not particularly comfortable with the noise of a hicap mag.

I know it's not loud enough to really be noticeable to others amongst all the shouting and shooting but it bugs me and the noise can affect my own ability to hear what's going on around me.

Beyond that, I choose midcaps because they allow me to carry as much ammo as possible without the rattling.

 

I'm not gonna try and justify my use of midcaps because they offer some kind of realism.

They're just the best way to carry ammo without noise.

If somebody invented a "midcap" that could carry 400 BBs I'd be all over them like a rat up a drainpipe.

 

 

I'd REALLY suggest that nobody tries to justify their mag choice on the basis of weight, ever.

This is airsoft.

Chances are you're carrying a rifle that has a RIS attached to it and then has a scope fitted, along with a fake PEQ and a torch (or two).

You're probably carrying a pistol (or two) that you rarely use out of neccesity and a bunch of spare mags for that too.

In fact, I suspect that your entire loadout was more the product of your examination of photo's on some website or your desire to copy a specific armed forces.

Hell, you might even be running around your field in a bloody plate carrier to protect you from those deadly plastic BBS.

Given that you're carrying so much unneccesary weight, do NOT try and tell me that you then got the scales out and realised that you'd save 400g by choosing a particular type of mag.

 

To be clear, I've got nothing against adding all the tat to your gun and dressing up like a soljer. Knock yourself out.

However, let's not then get all serious-business when we're discussing the optimal mag, eh?

 

 

Funny thing, I bet if we persuaded a team of Navy SEALs or SAS to come to a skirmish they'd probably show up wearing trackie-bottoms and a hoody, armed with a gun and a single hicap and proceed to hand us our asses.

Funny old world, innit?

[loki7491]

Funny thing, I bet if we persuaded a team of Navy SEALs or SAS to come to a skirmish they'd probably show up wearing trackie-bottoms and a hoody, armed with a gun and a single hicap and proceed to hand us our asses.

Funny old world, innit?

 

 

a similar 'experiment' was carried out a few years back.

 

the lads mag FHM (or possibly maxim) had a paintball day out. you could only use people on the payroll as part of your team. Previously in the year a certain Chris Ryan had written some columns / articles for the mag, he had been paid and was therefore technically on the payroll.

 

1 x thorough *albatross* kicking was duely handed out!

[jond36]

I played with a few ex-Seals, ex-Force Recon Sniper, ex-ranger and one of Ford's Secret Service Agent. We got killed. Lol. I swear during the night game I never saw one person when I would get killed.

 

 

Anyhow, The ranger used one handgun with one mag, the other guys used 3-4 hi-caps with their AEGs. These are the same guys who did not even know that midcaps even exsisted.

[calimero]

That must be some mag.

 

Last time I checked, an MP5 hicap only has around 25% more BBs than an MP5 midcap.

 

my point was that a single gunner (whatever gun he has) can do what he shouldnt be able to do normally, killing realism.

 

at our WW2 events, the ammo limit is usually as many magazines as they had, low caps only.

those low caps carry twice the RS ammo, which is enough. only machinegunners (MG, BAR etc..) have lot of ammo (hicaps, drum mags etc..). STG users have only one full mag.. others are carried empty, to fill the pouches

 

when i compare battle in modern games where we use hicaps, and WW2 engagements, there a lot more action and stress in low cap game.

when you have less ammo, you shoot less, you watch it, count more on your teammates fire, try to find the better way to shoot and get closer to the enemy to have higher chances of kill. Thats what i like in airsoft. and we dont reload that much.. usually i reload all magazines once per day, twice if we were really pressed. Another good point : bolt users are a big threat, despite their low rate of fire

 

High cap games, even with skilled players, is almost everytime take cover and spread.. very static and boring.. thats why more and more fields restrict their use i think..

 

so, it's not a matter of being experienced i think.. those trying low caps in the middle of high cap users find it useless.. but invite any highcap user to a low cap only game, he'll quickly change his mind

[mrcheaterson]

While I like having to reload, I do a lot of 1v1 rounds with my friends, for actual scenarios I use midcaps no problem, but sometimes you can go a whole round without using half a mag.

In 1v1/free-for-all a game lasts maybe 5 minutes, so you need to put out many more rounds in much faster succession, and for that you can sit there clicking your speedloader and doing the annoying "what mag do I have left" patdown or you can slap in the highcap and go all afternoon w/o dropping the mag.

 

It may be fake to shoot forever w/o reloading, but guaranteed you've at least thought about going 'Rambo' at least once.

[Stealthbomber]

my point was that a single gunner (whatever gun he has) can do what he shouldnt be able to do normally, killing realism.

I hate it when that happens too.

 

I keep suggesting that airsoft SMGs and pistols should all be tuned to shoot about 270fps, assault rifles at 330fps and large calibre rifles at 400fps.

That'd create more realistic variation of power between different types of gun.

Trouble is, there's always gonna be somebody who's got a super-upgraded MP5 or pistol or whatever and they're not going to agree with any idea that negates the advantage they have.

 

I just think we need to be open-minded about what everybody else wants as well as what we want.

[calimero]

I keep suggesting that airsoft SMGs and pistols should all be tuned to shoot about 270fps, assault rifles at 330fps and large calibre rifles at 400fps.

That'd create more realistic variation of power between different types of gun.

 

thats exactly what we have come up with and it works very well !

 

power has been limited following the real caliber used, and the type of weapon. the rule is followed by the majority and it makes a good difference

with time, more ppl adjust their guns to this rule and it gets more and more interesting.

all have to use real tactics, think before attacking, groups are made with different types of soldiers.. base of fire, lightly armed fast runners for flanking etc..

when many people understand the rules and apply them, man.. it's a totally different experience !

it gets so immersive that roleplay comes without even thinking of it. "germans" speak the few german words they know, we "allies" start to scream in english etc..

 

to some extent, technical details can dramatically change the game experience..

[FrostySnowman]

I use Midcaps, because they don't rattle and hold a decent amount of ammo. I'd like to switch to standards though, much more realistic.

[RWJP]

I find, the choice of mag also depends on the gun... Especially in the case of a P90 which I own... When i bought it I had the choice of Standards or Hi Caps... Now, I dunno about you, but I find carrying P90 magazines a real bugger due to the shape and size of them... That's why i've stuck with the Hi cap that came with it for now... It's so much simpler to use one mag, instead of having to lug around multiple awkward shaped magazines.

 

Saying that though, when I get myself a TM SR16, I intend to buy a set of Mid caps as they're much easier to store, and my PLCE always looks bare with not enough magazines in it.

[cadarnofjeal]

I prefer mid caps because I like reloading. I also like the fact that when the mag runs out of ammo you dont get that annoying unwinding noise that signals "Im out" to everyone around you.

 

I also think that people that use Hi-Caps aren't always spray and pray gun bunnies but there is a cross roads at the nearest site that two guys with Hi-Caps can hold all by them selves and thats just annoying.

[Surreel Big Fish]

Usually 6 mids and 2 high caps. I always reach for the mids first. Something about reloading under fire and trying to make as many shots count as possible makes me smile.

 

The high caps are for those 'Oh *fruitcage*!' moments where the assault goes wrong. Or we go to certain airsoft sites named after mythical beasts beginning with P.

[Tango_Down]

I use a mixture of all three.

I tend to keep 3 hi-caps for the day/2-day or what ever matches and a rig full of mids.

 

I've trained and trained for about 100Hrs + in doing reloads whilst under fire. (My friends sitting there at varying distances in "the feild" by me. (enclosed, densely vegitated brush leading onto my nans back garden. Owned by my Nan) firing round at me. Waiting for me to run out and start firing again, allowing me to reload and fire back the idea being that I got to reload and hit them before I get hit.

 

Just practice harder, longer and under pressure. You'll soon get round to relying on Midcaps and then thinking WTF is this?! when you end up with a Hi-cap.

 

Just my input..

[Blitz1000]

None....I go with real caps but out of those three I would say standard. I hate high caps.