Airsoft Artillery

[shibisueka]

You should talk to BigEd. He's got plenty of fun stuff, and great ideas and methods too!

[dusseldorf101]

Right appologies for being almost non existant in this thread. Basically been grinding away at the the old design stone and ive coe up with a few concept designs. I dont know if any of you have any prior knowledge of my other threads but basically ive made a fully autonomous sentry turret. Cut a long story short ive designed a combination of the turret and the recoiless rifle and come up with these. BTW im qualifies in computer aided design and im a fabricator so these are my designs.

 

Now i have no intention of building some of these however i'd like to hear peoples views on them??

 

The intended ammo for all are typically 40mm Moscart shells with apadted 203 laucnches integrated into the barrels to produce another form of sentry or turret. The larger of the turrets to be integrated with my sentry auto aiming software with the turrets driven by servos which in turn are driven by a software package on a pc. What this means in terms of this project would be that all the turrets would automatically aim themselves however the user would fire them from a laptop or integrated PC and screen. (for further details see my other thread Fully Autonomous Sentry Turrets)

http://img39.imageshack.us/i/turrets.png/

http://img80.imageshack.us/i/gunturret.png/

 

Basically the first is a rendered image (poorly rendered) however there are several designs ranging from full on AA style turrets to man useable turrets eg like a fixed gun emplacement. They are all direct fire weapons with the possibilty of increased power by having upto 4 moscart shells in a single barrel. This makes them a formidable anti-personnel area denial system.

 

Thoughts and opions welcome

[dusseldorf101]

The main area or field i for see this idea to work in is in erither a static position that requires defending, or as i highlighted before the recoiless rifle was designed to be carried by soldiers who are operating in mountainous regions. It is therefore exceptionally mobile and easily carried between a gun crew. Therefore this means that it is suitable for dynamic gameplay, contrary to what was said earlier. Effectively what this means is that if you were assaulting a fixed position provided you had a team to help you, you culd with very little difficulty or hinderance move the piece into position, set it up, load and fire, then dismantle and be off again to a different firing position before a counter manoeuvre can be executed.

 

The fire power would be enough to supress a position and to single handedly deter any would be attackers from a fixed position. Even as an area denial it would work. Say for instance there is a piece of dead ground that the oppostion is exploiting in order to cause problems to the friendly side, then one of the rifles could be set up covering it, then as a would be assaulting section approaches, the spread of the gun would in one easily shower the whole section assuming they are in direct view.

 

Just to highlight again, this is a direct fire extremely light artillery piece that would fire aprox. 4 moscart shells in a single volley. Effectively a MASSIVE shotgun that would hopefully reach ranges of upto 30m.

[dusseldorf101]

Heres another. Looks crude but unfortuanatly this is due to the photo rendering. May look abit chunky however this is a very solid fixed position or vehicle mounted turret that is operated by a two man crew; loader and aimer/firer.

http://img17.imageshack.us/i/turretj.png/

This one again is a fixed position turret however conforms more to the mk19 gmg (grenade machine gun) type design however has a bigger and longer bore barrel. This means tighter groupings and longer ranges. Making range and aiming far more precise and maximised.

http://img406.imageshack.us/i/mk19.png/

 

Any thoughts??

[dusseldorf101]

okayy honestly last one

http://img223.imageshack.us/i/turretness.png/

speaks for itself tbh.

 

Had alot of time on my hands and alot of the designs are from the sentry turret so they are pretty similar tbh really gotta get a new theme. Anyway Basically a semi fixed turret in the sense that it is deployed on its own mount, which can then be collapsed and then the whole thing moved and then set up elsewhere. This is effectively a section level heavy support weapon. Not sure how its going to function, be it in a 3 round, ie one round per barrel, weapon that fires them all simulateously and then they all need reloading together or one shell after the other, then after 3 rounds they each in turn need reloading. basically a repeat fire fixed 203 launcher. Not as powerful as other models but much more dynamic.

[AllGunzblazin]

does anyone know how much fps normal moscart grenades run at.

[DrKalinka]

I really think some of the designs should be ran by HPA as stuffing small moscarts into them would be expensive and difficult. Really... A moscart system would have you load a couple hundred moscarts (expensive) and carry them with you. A HPA system would require you to carry an airtank and a crapload of bbs. No problem there.

[Skarclaw]

Its gonna be *suitcase* unless you use some sort of magic. Yeah you could use loads of compressed air to shoot a foam thingy, but unless it makes some sort of noise that allows people to know its landed near them its gonna be useless. Best bet is to integrate the idea of some sort of artillery into the game itself, then use marshalls with maybe some pyros for effect to tell people to go back to the dead zone, etc etc.

 

 

[DrKalinka]

Just launch smokegrenades? You should be able to spot them landing by you

[Stealthbomber]

Just launch smokegrenades? You should be able to spot them landing by you

Yeah, by the blood.

 

A 100g projectile requires about 60j of energy to shoot 20m.

 

Seriously, folks...

Before you talk about the tactical uses for a device like this or how it might be operated you need to actually address how it's gonna be possible to build it.

100 BBs weigh 20g. If that hit you on the back of the head by itself it'd give you a nasty jolt.

Add in some kind of pressure system that'll disperse the BBs and a casing for it and you're looking at maybe 50g, at least.

Not to mention the potential that any "exploding" shell might activate in close proximity to a person or even get inside their clothing.

 

It's like you're saying you want a wristwatch with a 48" wide-screen TV built into it and then start talking about what features it should have rather than addressing the fundamental fact that IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO BUILD.

[DrKalinka]

With HPA, it should be able to fire a smoke grenade.

 

Really. What it would need as far as launching mechanism goes: A valve, HPA tank and a barrel. Have i forgotten something or is it that simple?

[dusseldorf101]

Yeah, by the blood.

 

A 100g projectile requires about 60j of energy to shoot 20m.

 

Seriously, folks...

Before you talk about the tactical uses for a device like this or how it might be operated you need to actually address how it's gonna be possible to build it.

100 BBs weigh 20g. If that hit you on the back of the head by itself it'd give you a nasty jolt.

Add in some kind of pressure system that'll disperse the BBs and a casing for it and you're looking at maybe 50g, at least.

Not to mention the potential that any "exploding" shell might activate in close proximity to a person or even get inside their clothing.

 

It's like you're saying you want a wristwatch with a 48" wide-screen TV built into it and then start talking about what features it should have rather than addressing the fundamental fact that IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO BUILD.

 

 

Okay EK=1/2MV^2

 

therefor the kinetic energy is equall to 1/2x20gx(max350fps)^2

 

therepfore EK=1/2x(0.02kg)x(106.68m)^2=0.01x11380.6224=113.806

 

which to 3 significant figures means that at the muzzle has a maximum kinetic energy of 114J.

 

That is not gonna cause that much pain. That is how much energy a 20g bb has travling at the maximum velocity attainable by a moscart shell at the point where it leaves the barrel and under ideal conditions. to break a rib a minimum of 156J is necessary.

 

So the gun is no more dangerous than any other airsoft weapon and the calculation was made with bbs 10x heavier than normal bbs.

 

The most likely use of the system will be multiple moscart shells being fired through a single barrel to replicate the effect of an area suppression weapon such as an artillery piece.The unit would use for instance four 72 round ICS Power-Up Grenade 72rds, so that per shot would fire 288 rounds. They are fired directly at a target however as we all know bb rounds never go straight to the target over range so there will be a certain amount of spread this will simulate the area suppression that is what makes up the purpose of artillery. This would eliminate the need of a marshall to say oh you guys were there so you got hit, they would take their hits because they would have deffinately know if they got hit or were close enough to that many rounds.

 

And if things go to plan then the cavity ive designed in my working drawing (not posted) will hopefully resonate the sound when the 4 shells are fired to produce some kind of distinct noise. Personally i dont think that the whole nerf foam football type idea will hold any water in any game!! As a sniper its hard enough to get people to call the hits from things that DO hit them compared to things that land near them. Theres always gonna be an "oh but i was 5 and HALF metres away" arguement. Plus i like the idea of being able to set it up in front of a bunker and then just utterly hosing them down in a single blast.

[Stealthbomber]

Okay EK=1/2MV^2

 

therefor the kinetic energy is equall to 1/2x20gx(max350fps)^2

 

therepfore EK=1/2x(0.02kg)x(106.68m)^2=0.01x11380.6224=113.806

 

which to 3 significant figures means that at the muzzle has a maximum kinetic energy of 114J.

 

Eh?

 

Saying stuff like that is a good way to get airsoft banned.

 

Just to be clear, any weapon that shoots with greater muzzle energy than 16J is a licensed firearm.

If your figures are to be believed, a moscart should actually be licensed as a shotgun.

 

None of which is the point.

A moscart fires a bunch of tiny BBs, usually no further than 10m btw, and each BB travels on its own and hits a seperate area of the target (if at all) so the result is that you're hit all over the body by a bunch of tiny little <1J impacts.

Nothing wrong with that at all.

 

I you're going to shoot BBs up in the air using a moscart in a "mortar" then you're not going to hurt anybody with it.

I think it's a bit pointles because, as I already said, in a game where people are using "mortars" like this it'd be easy for a player to just sling a handful of BBs at any entrenched position and claim a kill.

 

My post regarding power is not relavent to this type of "mortar" though because, as we said, the impacts from a bunch of seperate BBs (especially if they're raining downward at the speed of gravity) is not harmful.

 

What IS harmful is using a moscart (for example) to launch a pyro or some other projectile which will travel to a target and then detonate and release a payload.

A small thunderflash weighs 20g and will require around 25J of energy to travel 20m.

If that hits a person as it travels it's a potentially lethal impact.

And then it explodes to release smoke or BBs etc.

 

Hopefully you can see how a multi-shot device such as a moscart is different to the type of delivery systems that some people are discussing in this thread?

[-Angel-]

What IS harmful is using a moscart (for example) to launch a pyro or some other projectile which will travel to a target and then detonate and release a payload.

A small thunderflash weighs 20g and will require around 25J of energy to travel 20m.

If that hits a person as it travels it's a potentially lethal impact.

And then it explodes to release smoke or BBs etc.

A mortar operating on a 2-charge system is in safe and frequent use by Gunman airsoft. The pyro itself is specially made by TSLFX, with one charge to launch, and a second 'pop' with smoke after a few seconds.

 

While I in no way support home-made attempts at these weapons (since the moscart powered ones tend to be toss, and the pyro ones verge on dangerous/illegal) they can be made by professionals to work safely and properly.

[Stealthbomber]

A mortar operating on a 2-charge system is in safe and frequent use by Gunman airsoft. The pyro itself is specially made by TSLFX, with one charge to launch, and a second 'pop' with smoke after a few seconds.

What weight is it and how far does it launch?

 

Anything above 1J is considered to be "lethal" by the home-office.

I know we have some flexibility about that (with regard to sniper rifles etc) but something that shoots a projectile the weight of a Mk8 for 20m is not only "lethal" but should be considered a licensed firearm.

 

How do they ensure that the secondary detonation occurs safely rather than, for example, after the device has dropped down somebody's shirt or got tangled up in their ghillie or is lying on the ground right next to somebodies ear?

 

Sorry but that sounds unsafe and, more importantly, is almost certainly very illegal.

[nexus1101]

I have been following this thread with a lot of interest for a long time, as i was contemplating building a mortar for a while.

 

 

...any weapon that shoots with greater muzzle energy than 16J is a licensed firearm....

...Anything above 1J is considered to be "lethal" by the home-office....

 

...but something that shoots a projectile the weight of a Mk8 for 20m is not only "lethal" but should be considered a licensed firearm....

 

now this has me a little confused.

 

are you saying that 16J is the limit, and anything over needs to be a licensed firearm?

and to launch a mk8 over 20m will take more than 16J

 

and that a rifle running 450 fps can be considered a leathal weapon?

 

now i know bugger all about paintball, but what are the specifications of a paintball gun?

 

 

How do they ensure that the secondary detonation occurs safely rather than, for example, after the device has dropped down somebody's shirt or got tangled up in their ghillie or is lying on the ground right next to somebodies ear?

...and a second 'pop' with smoke after a few seconds.

 

by the 'pop' i would say its simple smoke (like a small 30 sec) and probably doesn't detonate as such so all it would do is burn, i can see what you are saying about a ghillie as i have one and i do my best to keep it away from fire

but then this will happen even with normal grenades, i have had one bounce off me while laying on the ground.

 

edit: for readability

[-Angel-]

Paintball has its own rules, frangible ammo, etc make it an entirely different kettle of fish.

 

What weight is it and how far does it launch?

 

Sorry but that sounds unsafe and, more importantly, is almost certainly very illegal.

Its around the size of a small smoke/thermo and launches anywhere up to 30 meters?

 

Something tells me TLSFX wouldn't risk thier business by supplying illegal pyros or Gunman by using them.

[nexus1101]

i was agreeing i was saying that it sounds like they have made it a 'pop' so its safe.

 

but even if it is an explosion whats the difference from a normal grenade going off next to you, the problem is the damage a single projectial can do flying through the air.

how much do the vortex/fome balls weigh that get shot from things like the LAW launchers?

[Stealthbomber]

now this has me a little confused.

 

are you saying that 16J is the limit, and anything over needs to be a licensed firearm?

and to launch a mk8 over 20m will take more than 16J

 

and that a rifle running 450 fps can be considered a leathal weapon?

 

now i know bugger all about paintball, but what are the specifications of a paintball gun?

 

Paintball guns only fire one shot per trigger-pull.

That means they are allowed, in theory, up to 12ft/lbs (16J) muzzle energy before becoming a licensed firearm.

FWIW, I guess that also verifies that a moscart is also legal.

Thing is, that law does only apply to licensing. It doesn't make any reference to usage.

 

The Home Office tells us that any shot harder than 1J can be "lethal" and thus a lot of sites use this as their upper limit for everything.

 

The Firearm Act tells us that any self-loading weapon above 1.35J is a section 5 firearm so some sites have 1.35j as their upper limit for AEGs.

 

Finally, the Firearm Act tells us that the absolute upper limit for an unlicensed firearm (such as an air gun) is 16j for a rifle or 8J for a pistol.

Some people suggest that, in the same way that "assault" is legal during a boxing match, it is not illegal to shoot another person with any legal weapon. As a result of this interpretation some sites allow 500fps (or higher) sniper rifles.

 

Depending on which bits of the above legalese your site believes will determine what your site limits are.

 

If you're shooting an AEG you'll be allowed up to 1J or 1.35J depending on if your site goes with the HO recommendation or the Firearms Act.

 

You are legally allowed to own a semi-auto (in the airsoft sense, rather than in the true "self-loading" sense) or bolt-action rifle (including a paintball gun) without an FAC as long as the power is less than 16J.

It will be up to your site to decide if it's okay for you to shoot that weapon at somebody else since it IS considered a "lethal" weapon.

 

Finally, anything that shoots at more than 16J is utterly verbotten unless you have a FAC and, in that case, you shouldn't be shooting it at somebody else.

 

So, yeah....

Moscarts are legal to own on the basis that they're not a select-fire weapon and they have power less than 16J.

Whether it's legal to shoot one at another person is debatable.

 

Anything that shoots with >16J muzzle energy is totally illegal to own without an FAC and the law (and common sense) suggests you shouldn't be shooting that at another person.

 

Yes, there ARE loopholes.

Why is a tennis-ball machine or a clay-pigeon launcher legal?

The tennis-ball machine is full auto and shoots tennis balls at way more than 1.35J.

A caly launcher is a single shot device but DOES shoot at way more than 16J.

Surely these machines should be banz0red?

Maybe they should but nobody's using them in airsoft.

 

I think the bottom line is that common sense needs to be applied.

Shooting an explosive projectile weighing 20g at somebody 10m away is probably gonna hurt if it hits them.

Do we want that?

 

Its around the size of a small smoke/thermo and launches anywhere up to 30 meters?

 

Something tells me TLSFX wouldn't risk thier business by supplying illegal pyros or Gunman by using them.

I did some quick calculations about this...

 

Firstly, an object would need to be travelling at 55 m/sec to have a horizontal range of 30m.

At a muzzle velocity of 55m/sec, the maximum allowable weight for a projectile would be 10.5g before it yeilded more than 16J energy.

So, if the pyro weighs less than 10g and has a range of around 30m it should be legal.

I'm not sure that makes it smart to shoot it at somebody though.

 

Incidentally, I also did some other calc's which suggest that you'd need anything from 55m/sec to 100m/sec muzzle velocity to launch a non-spherical 10g object 30m so there's no guarantees about the 55m/sec actually being correct.

 

I'd be interested to see how they justify the use of this, particularly to their insurance company.

If you shoot it out of something it's DEFINITELY within the remit of the Firearms Act.

If it's a standalone item then I guess it could be considered as a "firework" but we don't shoot fireworks at each other in airsoft, do we?

[thewallhitme]

its artillery, so i doubt its going to be fired at someone 10meters away....

 

and you say that it takes such and such joules to fire a 20 gram pyro 20 meters. i am 100% certain that i can throw it further than that, and im also 100% certain that even a headshot would not be lethal, let alone be harmful.

 

considering it would be deployed in an indirect fire (IE being fired up into the air, not in any sort of flat trajectory) i cannot see it being such a horrifically dangerous thing.

 

like someone has said even if frag grenade type rounds are used, whats the difference to one of these landing near you, and one that someone has hanf thrown near you?

 

what about some sort of catapult? that by definision is not a fire arm...

[Stealthbomber]

its artillery, so i doubt its going to be fired at someone 10meters away....

 

considering it would be deployed in an indirect fire (IE being fired up into the air, not in any sort of flat trajectory) i cannot see it being such a horrifically dangerous thing.

 

And how do you propose to ensure that the projectile doesn't hit the guy who's just stood up in front of you as you fire it?

 

Same thing applies to sniper rifles.

They have a MED to "ensure" that nobody takes a >1J hit.

Some sites are happy with that and some aren't.

The fact remains that the guns are LEGAL to own though. It's the usage that's dubious.

 

If you're shooting something that has >16J muzzle energy it doesn't matter WHERE you're aiming it, you need a FAC to do it.

 

and you say that it takes such and such joules to fire a 20 gram pyro 20 meters. i am 100% certain that i can throw it further than that, and im also 100% certain that even a headshot would not be lethal, let alone be harmful.

A paintball weighs about 4g.

Have you seen the bruising a paintball strike causes?

 

So you're sitting there telling me that you are "100% certain" that a projectile 4 times the weight of a paintball, carrying 4 times the energy, is not going to be harmful?

 

Sorry but that's just unsubstantiated boll*cks.

[-Angel-]

I did some quick calculations about this...

 

Firstly, an object would need to be travelling at 55 m/sec to have a horizontal range of 30m.

That is NOT the horizontal range, so the calculation is moot. 30m approximately on a 45 degree+ angle.

[Stealthbomber]

That is NOT the horizontal range, so the calculation is moot. 30m approximately on a 45 degree+ angle.

It'll take MORE power to shoot it up in an arc so it comes down 30m away.

[-Angel-]

So you've never tipped up the barrel of an airsoft gun or paintball gun to achieve extra range?

 

30m can be achieved with less power at 45 degrees than it can horizontally.

[thewallhitme]

And how do you propose to ensure that the projectile doesn't hit the guy who's just stood up in front of you as you fire it?

 

Same thing applies to sniper rifles.

They have a MED to "ensure" that nobody takes a >1J hit.

Some sites are happy with that and some aren't.

The fact remains that the guns are LEGAL to own though. It's the usage that's dubious.

 

If you're shooting something that has >16J muzzle energy it doesn't matter WHERE you're aiming it, you need a FAC to do it.

 

 

A paintball weighs about 4g.

Have you seen the bruising a paintball strike causes?

 

So you're sitting there telling me that you are "100% certain" that a projectile 4 times the weight of a paintball, carrying 4 times the energy, is not going to be harmful?

 

Sorry but that's just unsubstantiated boll*cks.

 

no, im saying that i can throw a grenade further than 20 meters and i know that its not going to cause untold amounts of harm. certainly not anyhting permenant. so your "calculation" that it would be so very harmful is questionable to say the least.