derf Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Has there ever been any consideration toward non-spherical projectiles in airsoft for the purpose of increasing range, accuracy and efficiency? Paintball has recently developed a skirted highly expensive projectile that boasts (and achieves) ~ double the range, 20 times the accuracy and 15% more efficiency than regular spherical paintballs. I should think producing an airsoft equivalent should perhaps be easier from a productive point of view. Link to post Share on other sites
farrasdevell Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 loading would be a big pita, getting them into the barrel facing the right way would mean a long loading process Link to post Share on other sites
Guardsman Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 plus they wouldn't work with hop ups Link to post Share on other sites
DrKalinka Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 The non-spherical part replaces the hop-up. Also, they rotate as a real bullet. But since the bullet isn't omnidirectional now, the entire mechanism has to be redesigned. This means the nozzle, feeding and magazine stacking. Link to post Share on other sites
fr00b Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Didn't asahi produce some non-spherical airsofts Think the outcome is always going to be better with hop-up and spherical bbs; even if you can match the range with a non-spherical, its going to have to be more expensive Link to post Share on other sites
derf Posted November 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 It's a technological and economic argument I think. The new paintball projectiles are superior in a big way, so the theory in both fields is valid. Including the market discussion. Of course it would imply new magazines and new gun mechanisms, but it's still relatively easy. Mid cap and low cap style players, including bolt action users would be perhaps the only realistic scope for this round, given the natural problems attributed with feeding, stacking, etc. And of course it will be more expensive, those paintballs are 75p each, but that's a whole other argument. Economics tends to be more malleable than technology. It wouldn't work with hop up? Well.... duh? Link to post Share on other sites
andy84 Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 RAP4 produces these RAP4 AIRFIN no idea how well they work, but look like they would be better for snipers than aeg users. andy Link to post Share on other sites
bankz5152 Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Sounds cool. Doesnt the Umarex CX4 Storm use similar .177 amunition? Which is semi automatic and magazine fed. It would be a total redesign essentially a new type of airsoft gun. Link to post Share on other sites
tome Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 A question like this comes up every few months on the forums. I think the general consensus is that a relatively well know company tried it and manufactured some for sale but it didn't do so well on the market and so disappeared. I'm interested to see these non-spherical paintballs that are supposed to be such an improvement. Do you have a link? Is the range improvement as compared with a normal paintball barrel of one of the curved ones that give spherical paintballs backspin. I think it's fair to say that it's been generally agreed upon that hop up (ie back spin) give the best bang for buck performance. A small projectile that relied solely on its shape to produce aero dynamic lift would need to be orientated the correct way as it is loaded into the chamber. Also the fixed shape of the projectiles (as oppose to the adjustable amount of back spin) would mean that you would have to have different shaped projectiles to give different amounts of lift depending on what weight ammo you wanted to use at whichever particular velocity.... :-S I think backspin hop up seems to be the most sensible option and thus it has survived Link to post Share on other sites
greg Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 The non-spherical part replaces the hop-up. Also, they rotate as a real bullet. Er, not really. Take your hop completely off & see how far your bb gets. This will give you an instant answer as to why this isn't a popular idea, Rotation as per a real bullet adds stability but wont, in this case, extend range. Paintball guns don't have hop, so will benefit accuracy wise from the 'rotation'. So, no benefit in airsoft, unless you are happy to aim in the air to get it over 30m. Which is exactly what a paintballer has to do. Greg. Link to post Share on other sites
derf Posted November 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Brand website: http://www.tiberiusarms.com/ Manufacturers website: http://www.pcpaintball.com/ Some stats and graphs are visible on the Tiberius website ^ I believe various bodies were involved in the early development of First Strike. Even Fabrique Nationale. There is a less-lethal riot control weapon based on these rounds which obviously isn't available to the public. FN 303. I have about a hundred of these rounds and have tested them along with alot of other paintballers. There is an obvious consensus that they are much more accurate and efficient and that they fly much further and straighter. Normal paintballs in special backspin barrels for normal paintballs add about 15 metres of effective range, at a detriment to accuracy. These new rounds have ~ double the range of the backspun paintballs and 25 times increased accuracy (consistency). Not sure i follow you regarding the different shapes you think are required. I think hop up + BB's has been the simple enough, cheap enough and good enough so far for airsoft. It's a slight shame if this is true becayse it would be very interesting to experience such improvements. Link to post Share on other sites
derf Posted November 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Er, not really. Take your hop completely off & see how far your bb gets. This will give you an instant answer as to why this isn't a popular idea, Rotation as per a real bullet adds stability but wont, in this case, extend range. Paintball guns don't have hop, so will benefit accuracy wise from the 'rotation'. So, no benefit in airsoft, unless you are happy to aim in the air to get it over 30m. Which is exactly what a paintballer has to do. Greg. Wrong. What are you basing your information off of? I've owned APEX's and Flatlines in paintball and this first strike with a smoothbore easily goes double the distance. Link to post Share on other sites
tome Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 ah. These First Strike rounds appear to be a paintball with a skirt on the back. I can see how they might increase range by giving less aerodynamic drag as compared with a completely spherical paintball flying through the air. Spheres are not known for their low drag hehe. I'm not sure how well this method would work when scaled down to the size of a 6mm bb. A paintball is probably big enough to have a significant tubulent wake behind it but i'm not sure a bb is big enough to benefit from having that wake shaped by a skirt. nb. the idea of having different shapes for different weights was with the assumption that the round was shaped in order to give lift. Different shapes would give different amounts of lift and increasing the speed would also increase the lift. This would necessitate different shapes to account for different weight ammo and varying fps. Since the First Strike round does not produce lift this isn't an issue for that design. Link to post Share on other sites
tome Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Just had a read about the FN303...... it's a bit off topic but...... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_303#Safety This really makes me angry. How idiotic is it to produce a "less than lethal" weapon system based on a paintball gun style concept and market it for police use on civilian crowds who won't be wearing any sort of eye protection. Some engineers need to go back to school and redo their ethics course Link to post Share on other sites
DrKalinka Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Its better to use the same balls in a regular shotgun? Thats ethical? If the guy that loads the shotgun by mistake loads it with lethal rounds... That system is DESIGNED to not be lethal. A shotgun with "less than lethal" slugs, may in fact be deadly and is probably more dangerous to your eyes. Go rant about the shotties with rubber bullets in before you rant at modified paintball guns! Link to post Share on other sites
RC-1138 Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 plus they wouldn't work with hop ups Think Mini-ball. A smooth bore weapon firing a mini ball will fire farther and straighter than a rifled "lead ball". I've thought about this alot and I've tried a few times to figure out how this would be done. The best idea I was ever able to come up with is GBB style magazines that involve "stacking" the projectiles so that the "nose" faces up into the gun and rotates through the feed chamber down the barrel. At the same time though if the airsoft ammunition were ever to be altered in shape, a good idea, at that time, would also be to research if we're using the right size. More than once I've wondered if 5mm, 4mm, or any other calibre would function better than the 6mm we use... Link to post Share on other sites
Triggerhappychappy Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Airsoft isnt paintball... Its difficult enough to load 6mm bbs into a gun, one at a time- now try doing that in the filed whislt your being shot at from all directions. Granted snipers dont use as many rounds as a normal user, but the cost to usefulness ratio isnt great here; how many more jams will you get with some poorly molded 6mm diameter rounds, potential dirtied up by the user loading them into their mags in the field? How many manufacturers will be willing to design new guns (at great cost),on the off chance the new ammo becomes popular; as stated, someone tried it already and it didnt take off. Normal round ammo is cheap and plentiful, and works extemely well with good accuracy- no need to reinvent the wheel. Is that a paintball gun, with sights?! Wow, no more human stomach to crane your neck around to see what you're shooting at... Link to post Share on other sites
tome Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Its better to use the same balls in a regular shotgun? Thats ethical? If the guy that loads the shotgun by mistake loads it with lethal rounds... That system is DESIGNED to not be lethal. A shotgun with "less than lethal" slugs, may in fact be deadly and is probably more dangerous to your eyes. Go rant about the shotties with rubber bullets in before you rant at modified paintball guns! er.. where did i say i was in favour of shotgun fired balls/bean bags? I'm not sure of the procedures of riot police armed with less than lethal but i would think it's a bad idea for them to carry both live and rubber ammo on them when attending a riot situation. I know crowds get bad but how often do you really desperatly need to blow an arm or a leg off that rioter? Firing ANY kind of projectile weapon of limited accuracy into a crowd of mainly "innocent" people is a bad idea in my book. Maybe to you that's an acceptable risk. Link to post Share on other sites
DrKalinka Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 I didn't say you favoured anything over anything else. But you are starting on the wrong end of the weapons range. A shotgun has practically no accuracy and is more lethal. That is what gets used in riots. And to be honest. The batons have made more damage than the shotguns with rubber slugs. Link to post Share on other sites
Triggerhappychappy Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Shotguns have no accuracy? Tell that to the ducks and pigeons... Link to post Share on other sites
DrKalinka Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 There is a significant difference to a single slug and hundreds of pellets... Link to post Share on other sites
greg Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Wrong. What? All of it, or just a bit? Greg. Link to post Share on other sites
reaper16 Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Just had a read about the FN303...... it's a bit off topic but...... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_303#Safety This really makes me angry. How idiotic is it to produce a "less than lethal" weapon system based on a paintball gun style concept and market it for police use on civilian crowds who won't be wearing any sort of eye protection. Some engineers need to go back to school and redo their ethics course Oh so its better to let the guy throwing the molotov cocktail to catch someone on fire than be hurt himself? Or the guy throwing bricks to split someones skull open? Link to post Share on other sites
Azubi Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Back on topic lads before a mod locks it... I'd be interested to see how these actually work but I don't think it would directly apply to airsoft. You'd effectively be playing another game and it's to be seen if it would actually give any significant gains to what we can already achieve we our current tech. That's if anyone bothers to try and develop it though. I personally think it would be a novelty in both airsoft and paintball. Who is willing to pay 75p a shot, especially when we can put a couple thousand rounds a day. Link to post Share on other sites
derf Posted November 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Airsoft isnt paintball... Its difficult enough to load 6mm bbs into a gun, one at a time- now try doing that in the filed whislt your being shot at from all directions. Granted snipers dont use as many rounds as a normal user, but the cost to usefulness ratio isnt great here; how many more jams will you get with some poorly molded 6mm diameter rounds, potential dirtied up by the user loading them into their mags in the field? There's an 8 shot magazine available for a paintball marker which was based off conventional paintballs. All you need to swap out is the bolt and you fire your 8 rounds perfectly fine. The rounds are stacked in the magazine too, so in theory you could have a magazine with 100 of these new paintball rounds and the result will be the same. Obviously it will be a 10 meter magazine, but the point im making is that I think it's pretty straight forward in terms of replicating this for airsoft if theres already a solution for paintball. A single stack staggered magazine similar to airsoft lowcaps is something I envisage for the magazine. For the airsoft gun, well that's a matter of design. Why should it not work for airsoft if it works for paintball already? @ greg: what? @ azubi: But if you had the possibility of buying this kind of system that's just as reliable, functional and affordable as a conventional airsoft gun, but has more range and accuracy, which would you buy? Link to post Share on other sites
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