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Differing Methods/Standards


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Posting "Wow, that was professional." is not an attempt to get the thread back on topic.

 

It's not an attempt to derail the thread either. It's a valid criticism of someones actions. Perhaps a little sarcastic, perhaps not raised in the right venue but it hardly deserves two weeks suspension! I think ego and temper got the better of Stealth there.

 

I hope I'm not coming across as defensive, Chimpy. I'm simply trying to provide the moderators viewpoint and perspective in a situation such as this, rather than simply the members which has been portrayed quite adequately. ;)

 

You are coming across as defensive to me and others though. You are ignoring the substantive complaints raised here in favour of slinging mud at one of the people raising the complaint and saying what essentially amounts to 'thats just the way it is'.

Edited by Chimpy
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I haven't slung mud at anyone.

 

The title of the topic is "Differing Methods/Standards", I provided MXCL an example of a Moderator taking largely the same actions as Stealthbomber did in a similar situation. I don't believe I've posted "thats just the way it is" either.

Edited by Misfit
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EDIT:

 

It was no way intended to be a glass half full avoidance. I was merely pointing out that you can do 'A LOT WORSE' elsewhere. Like all things, we as people have the option to vote with our feet, hence why I personally do not inhabit another certain forum.

 

It is not a perfect world by any means and the addage of 'if you don't like it, go elsewhere' is a rather bad bastardization of the individuals ability to choose a course of action for themselves. I am well aware that it's taken as a very negative comment, but the meaning of it is certainly very valid.

 

I know that it wasn't necessarily intended that way, and I know your statement is not false (we could do a LOT LOT LOT worse) I just felt even saying it was sort of redundant. Yes, at least it's not east Germany, I agree, we all do, but I just dont think it needs to be said. I must say though of all the people in here your stated belief's on moderation have probably been the most sterling example to aspire to, and I commend you for it.

 

Dude.... this is a British Forum! hehehehe, yes, yes, yes, I know you spell things differently on your side of the pond. Let's not argue semantics (might not be the correct usage of the word, but you get my drift). Ahloominum I ask you.....

 

I just use the spell check on quoted posts and italicize errors, not because I want to be a smartypants, but because I like it when people help me out, because I am TERRORIBLE (That's a cross between Terrible and Terror by the way) at writing. I scored 99%'s and 100%'s on my GED except for the essay, which was 58%

 

TERRORIBLE

 

Now I cannot condone such a course of conduct, it's not my style. I'll grant you Moderators have to appear to be whiter than white (in a 'clean' sense, don't go misconstruing that comment into something its not...) and above reproach.

 

There should be a system of addressing these issues..... and indeed you are making good usage of that very system by posting your comments here. So you see, the process can and does work. Nobody is hiding anything and it's certainly not the 'pack mentality' I spoke of before.

 

The system has worked to this point, but the only responses I am getting on the matter are "You don't know the history" "You cant see it but he derailed it" and other what seem to be lame cop outs. I totally agree about moderators, and I think that if every one of them truly held that Cleanest of clean (a little better sounding the whitest of white, I know what you mean though) then these kinds of things would be easier to sort out. Passing me the things he did Via PM doesnt lead me to believe he is trying to be the cleanest of clean, but ather the Rightest of Right.

 

Nobody is coming to your house with a black sack and some large batons (well, not yet anyway! but best keep any eye out).

 

What the eventual outcome will be is far from me to speculate upon. I am merely a pawn and do not consider the functions of higher beings (it makes my brain hurt).

 

But one thing I will say is, whilst Stealth is brash, ubrupt, cynical, opinionated, hot tempered and dare I say ugly.....

He's a good honest bloke, he's done a lot in this forum and is a worthy addition. It would be a more monochrome place without him.

 

I don't like Marmite..... but apparently some people do.

 

First off, I have NO IDEA what 'Marmite' is, and I'm not too worried about people showing up to take me away.

 

Anyhow

 

I don't think Stealth is trying to be shady here, I do think that he thinks he has done the right thing, and therein lies the problem with the PM method.

 

I also totally agree that stealth is a great asset to the community, but I'm gonna step on some toes now.

 

I don't think he is an asset because he is a moderator, he is an asset as a grizzled and experienced member.

 

I get that moderating is a Ins of ins club, that comes from being a good member, but all of Stealth's great contributions seem like the contributions of other respected members, not necessarily particularly good moderation. I don't want Stealth like BANNED FOREVER!!!11!!!! or anything like that, but I just don't know that he consistently meets the high standard we should expect from our moderation team. As our friend Chimpy here said to him (we have been conversing about this topic today) "I just think sometimes your ego and temper get the better of you." And while thats all good and fine for someone who a member, when it is what amounts to the official voice of the forum it can be bad. Plus there is the whole issue of suspending those you don't like and playing favorites. If all the members could do that... Chaos.

 

Yes we are all human, including the mods. But as a Moderator the Idea is to try and transcend your personal beliefs and, you know, moderate.

 

Now on to Misfit

 

 

Yes, indeed I did call you a word I really shouldn't have.

 

I had another moderator edit the post within a few minutes and asked elrey to relay an apology to you, which I hope you got. If you did not, I apologize once again for acting in such a manner, I was rather ill tempered that day.

I got your apology, and like I keep saying its not the mistakes that matter its the rectification. Which you did well and I comeend that as well. I hold no ill will toward you for the altercation. Now, lets move on to the rest of the post.

 

I'm not quite sure how a members previous behaviour doesn't matter.

 

On a forum we generally don't ban people outright for one single action, we moderators attempt to direct them into becoming productive members that follow the rules. If a member continuously behaves like a Muppet and has a history of acting like one, he or she may eventually be banned.

 

I'm not saying that it should be entirely disregarded in the same contexts, just as I would say 2 crimes with the same MO should be compared. Its just the Bad apple mentality I have an issue with.

 

As for quoting Titliest's post again, allow me:

 

{TITLEST'S POST GOES HERE}

 

Posting "Wow, that was professional." is not an attempt to get the thread back on topic.

Ok so let me get this straight. When a mod comes in and calls someone someone elses *badgeress* thats on topic enough to be allowed, but when someone calls them on it in tread thats not allowed? I mean Stealth created that OT tangent. If I had been online that day I would have come in and done the exact same thing. I would have called Stealth an unprofessional mod who should be ashamed of himself. If this idea of moderators being able to OT at will is the case thats at the very VERY least entrapment.

 

So after that he posts a picture and tried to go on his merry way. But no he tried to make the RS thread into an OT SHENANIGAN FEST. or this is what you claim. Quite simply put. I think you are dead wrong.

 

Its not ok for a mod to come in and do what he did, but it absolutely has to be ok for us to say so. If it had devolved into some epic battle in thread then I would get it, at least a lock and warn points, as you did. But as was in our case in this situation I would expect that the points be removed and the thread be cleansed and re opened, because this was "Conduct un becoming of an Officer" er "Moderator".

 

I hope I'm not coming across as defensive, Chimpy. I'm simply trying to provide the moderators viewpoint and perspective in a situation such as this, rather than simply the members which has been portrayed quite adequately. ;)

 

I don't think your coming across as all that defensive, i think your trying to get us to see his side of things, and thats the thing. I do see his side. I just don't think his side has a place on the MODERATION side of things.

 

EDIT: Redundant statements edited.

Edited by MCXL
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I haven't slung mud at anyone.

 

The title of the topic is "Differing Methods/Standards", I provided MXCL an example of a Moderator taking largely the same actions as Stealthbomber did in a similar situation. I don't believe I've posted "thats just the way it is" either.

 

You didn't suspend me for 2 WEEKS. And then act like a unstoppable wall about it.

 

EDIT: OOPS Meant to add this to the last in an edit.

Edited by MCXL
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I haven't slung mud at anyone.

 

You initially neglected to mention that your decisions were essentially reversed by another moderator though and that you apologised for your actions! That's not exactly presenting the same situation and when directed at MXCL makes it look like you are trying to make him look like he is just complaining about that. That the two are related but ended up resolved in a completely different manner I think speaks volumes.

 

I don't believe I've posted "thats just the way it is" either.

 

Not explicitly but that is the summation of what you did post.

Edited by Chimpy
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You initially neglected to mention that your decisions were essentially reversed by another moderator though and that you apologised for your actions! That's not exactly presenting the same situation and when directed at MXCL makes it look like you are trying to make him look like he is just complaining about that. That the two are related but ended up resolved in a completely different manner I think speaks volumes.

 

 

 

Not explicitly but that is the summation of what you did post.

 

They weren't reversed by another moderator due to them disagreeing, but reversed at my request. I am currently not able to edit posts in locked threads, therefore to edit my post I would have to reopen the thread, edit it, then lock it again, which could provide enough time for someone else to make another post which could simply land themselves in trouble. Therefore, I asked Cazboab to edit my post for me.

 

I didn't apologise for the actions I took, either. I apologised for swearing at MXCL. I believe the actions I took in that situation (locking the thread, issuing warns, etc) were perfectly right. I'm afraid I also don't see any attempt by myself in the quote below to make it look like MXCL is complaining about that incident, which would quite frankly be rather daft on my part as it was a month or more ago.

 

As an example of other moderators acting in a way similar to Stealth's in such a situation, I recently gave you a warning and temporarily locked a thread as you refused to PM me rather than derail a thread.

 

If I came across in such a manner, I can only attribute it to my phrasing the post in a manner I did not intend.

 

I don't think your coming across as all that defensive, i think your trying to get us to see his side of things, and thats the thing. I do see his side. I just don't think his side has a place on the MODERATION side of things.

 

Thank you, that was my only intention.

Edited by Misfit
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What about my factual points Misfit? Do you not have a counter to the "at the very least its entrapment" argument?

 

EDIT: not trying to fight, I just want some real discussion on this rather then the answers on general moderating technique, and how it's hard.

Edited by MCXL
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OT: THAT GAME IS AWESOME.

 

I'm liking the whole, we are actually talking thing rather then we are each posting once a day and stewing on the subject. How exciting.

 

EDIT: Spelling and grammer fail.

Edited by MCXL
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Ok so let me get this straight. When a mod comes in and calls someone someone elses *badgeress* thats on topic enough to be allowed, but when someone calls them on it in tread thats not allowed? I mean Stealth created that OT tangent. If I had been online that day I would have come in and done the exact same thing. I would have called Stealth an unprofessional mod who should be ashamed of himself. If this idea of moderators being able to OT at will is the case thats at the very VERY least entrapment.

 

No, it's not alright for moderators to swear and insult users, just as it's not alright for users to swear at other users. I am unaware as to whether Stealth apologised to the user in question, however, so can't really comment any further.

 

So after that he posts a picture and tried to go on his merry way. But no he tried to make the RS thread into an OT SHENANIGAN FEST. or this is what you claim. Quite simply put. I think you are dead wrong.

 

I think it would have been much better for all concerned if Titliest had simply PM'd Stealth, or to create a separate thread such as this one. Generally when a user posts a complaint in a thread where a moderator has taken action and asked people to get back on topic, it comes across to me as that user attempting to show people that the moderator is the spawn of pure malevolence, or an attempt to derail the thread further as some kind of mini-revolt.

 

Its not ok for a mod to come in and do what he did, but it absolutely has to be ok for us to say so. If it had devolved into some epic battle in thread then I would get it, at least a lock and warn points, as you did. But as was in our case in this situation I would expect that the points be removed and the thread be cleansed and re opened, because this was "Conduct un becoming of an Officer" er "Moderator".

 

It is most definitely okay for users to post their complaints, however, complaints should be made in the correct place. Posting a complaint in any thread after a moderator has asked users to get back on topic generally just derails the thread further, and is a blatant attempt to ignore the moderators request.

 

I believe the correct thing to do if a user wishes to complain would be to either create a thread such as this one in this forum, or, if they wish, raise the matter privately with the moderator in question, Marlowe, or another global.

 

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Stealth was clearly referring to the Topic of The gun law/politics stuff that was being slung around. Of course that was in his EDIT, initially he just came in and insulted a member.

 

EDIT: wait I got more

 

EDIT 2.0 HERE IT IS:

 

This thread is sort of a step up, but I don't know that its ok to basically walk away to a different section of the forum. Calling him in thread on it and leaving it there I think is totally acceptable, no matter what his mod mandate is, mostly because of the fact because that way you don't stifle spontaneity. I think the real issue is if he hadn't been suspended and stealth had responded as a member it would have kept going back and forth. Moderation was required, it just so happened that the wrong person was doing the moderating in that situation.

 

I mean all threads roam a bit, no thread is 100% on topic all the time, and I totally am in agreement about all the gun policy/law ######. But responding to what amounts to a personal insult to Him (Titleist) as well as babybackribs. We arent all Jesus. I doubt Stealth would have turned the other cheek so why should our members be held to a higher standard then our moderators? I mean thats about as backwards of an idea I have ever heard. thats like, Guns that own men! Or lotion for pistols.

 

It's like a glue fountain with wasps!

 

See what all those things have in common? They are all just nonsense.

 

I think that really Stealth opened the proverbial door on this one. In our altercation I didn't get a chance to respond because you locked the thread on the insult, as if stealth had locked it when he called babybackribs Titleist's *badgeress*.

Edited by MCXL
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No, it's not alright for moderators to swear and insult users, just as it's not alright for users to swear at other users. I am unaware as to whether Stealth apologised to the user in question, however, so can't really comment any further.

 

Good! At least someone on the mod staff is willing to directly acknowledge that at least in part his behaviour was wrong.

 

I think it would have been much better for all concerned if Titliest had simply PM'd Stealth, or to create a separate thread such as this one. Generally when a user posts a complaint in a thread where a moderator has taken action and asked people to get back on topic, it comes across to me as that user attempting to show people that the moderator is the spawn of pure malevolence, or an attempt to derail the thread further as some kind of mini-revolt.

 

It is most definitely okay for users to post their complaints, however, complaints should be made in the correct place. Posting a complaint in any thread after a moderator has asked users to get back on topic generally just derails the thread further, and is a blatant attempt to ignore the moderators request.

 

Perhaps this should be made more clear in the rules then. A 'complaints procedure' if you like. BTW you 'shoulda PMd' works both ways its hardly like Stealth bothered to get to the bottom of things before suspending Titleist and two weeks seems like an awful long time for such a weak expression of displeasure!

 

The "spawn of pure malevolence" and "mini-revolt" is hilariously over the top when describing someone saying that they thought something was unprofessional!

 

I believe the correct thing to do if a user wishes to complain would be to either create a thread such as this one in this forum, or, if they wish, raise the matter privately with the moderator in question, Marlowe, or another global.

 

I agree with this too but if it's not clearly communicated other people with different ideas will do different things. Punishing them because they didn't follow rules that don't exist except in other peoples heads doesn't work very well.

Edited by Chimpy
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You know all this talk of "the proper place" Is reminding me of the "Free Speech zones" that have become so popular these days.

 

Of course I did raise the issue with stealth and Ive showed you his response to me which amounts to "I am the law" And I also PMed Marlowe who told me that he would talk to stealth.

 

Yea Titlest gets a 2 WEEK suspension for voicing desent in the improper place while stealth gets a talking to? Man...

Edited by MCXL
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You know all this talk of "the proper place" Is reminding me of the "Free Speech zones" that have become so popular these days.

 

There's a difference here. The threads are broadly on a topic for a reason, it's a method of organising conversations into topics and areas. Otherwise you may as well have one thread with everyone talking across one another at will. It's also why we have moderators who try to keep things organised. The key point here is that they should be facilitators of debate not some sort of authoritarian in charge of debate. So having rules about not going too off-topic and posting in the right place is entirely in keeping with the framework of a forum. You do need to make it clear what is or isn't allowed though.

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I can't help noticing that babybackribs has not registered any complaint over my comment.

If he wants to post here or PM me I will be happy to apologise for any insult made.

 

The two people who I suspended have a long history of argumentative behaviour and action was taken to curtail any further off-topic debate.

 

That's really all I have to say on the subject.

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Again just because he didn't complain doesn't make it less wrong.

 

EDIT: Chimpy, you have a valid point. What gets me about this though is that there is no real way for this to be handled, not officially anyway. I mean we are all talking about ways to handle it but there is no official avenue at this point.

Edited by MCXL
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I can't help noticing that babybackribs has not registered any complaint over my comment.

If he wants to post here or PM me I will be happy to apologise for any insult made.

 

Hang on! Someone doesn't need to request an apology and only apologising on receipt of a complaint hardly speaks of an honourable motive for doing so!

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Boy, doesn't that just say it all.

 

EDIT: no thats too snarky for me I am adding a post of substance. Wait one.

 

The fact that you have no pause even after all thats said here by Myself and other members is worrisome Stealth. Do you really think yourself so infallible that you couldn't make a mistake when heated words were being exchanged? I mean if you want to get into it you basically insulted Titleist via babybackribs, you didn't just peg him for trolling, you used that opportunity to strike out at Titleist. Then in your second PM to me you said

 

"Besides, in that context it wasn't offensive IMO. BBR spends most of his time licking Titleists *albartroth*, as do most of the people in that thread. No need to have a fit because somebody dared to mention it. :D"

 

That's right, everyone who looks at the RS thread is kissing Titleist's *albatross*, not you know, discussing RS firearms. The fact that your so obviously and glaringly biased says more then I ever could though. You are so far beyond being impartial in any way it is astounding. You called out the response from Titleist, and then went nuclear war on him.

 

I mean come on man. You have Second thoughts? Thats IT?

 

Like I said before stealth, you are an asset to the community, but not as a moderator, as a member.

Edited by MCXL
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I have no idea if he was insulted. Do you?

 

The point of an apology is supposed to be a sincere admission of error. You either think it was okay to insult him or not. By making it conditional on him complaining it suggests that you think your behaviour was perfectly acceptable and are only offering to apologise in that instance to save face.

 

Never mind the object lesson you gave him about complaining about mods behaviour in that thread... doesn't exactly make you appear to be someone you can complain about?

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