GBB M4's Confiscated and Destroyed

[Dr Pepper 6pk]

"tooled to shoot plastic balls" Lol classic.

 

Might as well start banning lights, pens, canes and cell phones now too. WAAAY easier to convert to fire live rounds.

[Megalomaniac]

Once again knee-jerk reactions need not apply, the ATF may very well have had good reasoning to seize the guns, because the internals are so similar to real M4s certain parts of the trigger group may very well be capable of adapting a semi-auto only AR into an illegal full-auto AR.

 

But that is just a hypothesis, but upon further digging and finding another article, which after its scare mongering states that the guns were destroyed because the importer lacked proper permits.

 

The ATF also determined that the shipment did not arrive with the proper permits to enter the United States. The guns will be destroyed

 

source: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2010/02/24/1...uns-seized.html

 

WILL look for more information, looks like the government did do its job of policing illegal imports, it appears as though we all stand corrected, way to go fear mongering news reports.

[ncthorn]

It really makes me sick to see people defending the ATF. Flame him all you want but Kalmar is correct when it comes to the BS that the ATF pulls. It is entirely likely that they knew the weapons couldn't be made to fire live ammo but decided to harass someone for trying to import something that looked real. They are not the good guys you think they are and if you dont believe me, try following real steel weapons and collecting for a while. We put up with this garbage all the time and it is getting really old.

 

Even if the proper licenses were not there, it does not change the fact that the ATF allowed this to get out and be sensationalized by the media.

[Stealthbomber]

Well, WA has gone to lengths to make their INTERNALS replicate firearms, and thats where the trouble starts. Its obvious that is not the most efficient method, and so they are doing it only so it resembles the real firearm. I find this going to far, especially since they are sacrificing function.

The internals of a WA GBBR don't replicate a real firearm any more closely than the internals of a GBB pistol.

 

The only difference is most of the extra gas related bits are built into the GBBR mag whereas they're usually built into the hammer assembly of a pistol.

The same parts are all there though.

 

Strip away the gas-related junk and a WE 1911 is just as capable of firing a live round after you fabricate a new firing block as a WE M4 is after you replace the BCG.

That is, not very capable at all, probably with fatal consequences for the person who pulls the trigger.

[WhiteHawksan]

The simple fact is, there is no excuse for what the ATF did, if they're going on the, it *could* possibly, maybe be made to fire live round, or parts could be modified and fitted to a RS AR, but then in that case, ban all aluminium billet and steel bar that gets into the country, my local machine shop could pretty easily fabricate that into a WHOLE real AR, full auto and everything!

 

The simple fact is, it would of taken less than a minute to load it up with BB's, slot the mag in and fire it.. and low and behold.. its a toy. Hell they could even try loading a RS STANAG mag and see if that feeds, I swear america's going the way of England, where a madman and psychopath, repeatedly reported to the police by other gun club members as a danger and that he should have his licence revoked goes on a rampage killing school children, so who gets the blame? The police for failing to act on repeated reports that the man is dangerous and could do just that? Hell no, we ban all handguns.

 

Soon the ATF will ban RS uppers in america because if you have a Full auto lower you can make it into a Full auto AR oh noes!

[ncthorn]

The simple fact is, there is no excuse for what the ATF did, if they're going on the, it *could* possibly, maybe be made to fire live round, or parts could be modified and fitted to a RS AR, but then in that case, ban all aluminium billet and steel bar that gets into the country, my local machine shop could pretty easily fabricate that into a WHOLE real AR, full auto and everything!

 

The simple fact is, it would of taken less than a minute to load it up with BB's, slot the mag in and fire it.. and low and behold.. its a toy. Hell they could even try loading a RS STANAG mag and see if that feeds, I swear america's going the way of England, where a madman and psychopath, repeatedly reported to the police by other gun club members as a danger and that he should have his licence revoked goes on a rampage killing school children, so who gets the blame? The police for failing to act on repeated reports that the man is dangerous and could do just that? Hell no, we ban all handguns.

 

Soon the ATF will ban RS uppers in america because if you have a Full auto lower you can make it into a Full auto AR oh noes!

 

This is so painfully true ^

[Stealthbomber]

The simple fact is, there is no excuse for what the ATF did....

Well, it seems the REAL reason they seized the guns was because of import permits.

In that case, yeah. They acted properly.

 

What isn't proper is to then perpetuate some kind of story about the situation.

 

#1 "Well, these toy guns lack the proper paperwork so we're going to destroy them"

#2 "These guns are a menace to society and could be used to harm american citizens if converted to fire live ammo"

 

Which of those 2 statements sounds like the best use of taxpayers money?

[ncthorn]

I generally agree with what you are saying Stealth. The biggest problem is how the ATF allowed this to be sensationalized into something it simply is not.

 

[WhiteHawksan]

I generally agree with what you are saying Stealth. The biggest problem is how the ATF allowed this to be sensationalized into something it simply is not.

 

Although, purely conjecture and just food for thought, who said what documentation and permits, if it was for full auto rifle parts, then they probably didn't have that documentation.

[Megalomaniac]

By the looks of the article my guess on the chain of events was this:

 

-Customs opens package either by random search or because of incorrect paper work. Agent notes lack of orange tips and most likely following procedure notifies ATF.

 

-ATF agents inspect weapons, agents are most likely not used to dealing with GBBRs and are stunned at the realism, rifles are determined to be airsoft guns and not in violation of firearms laws, hence the lack of serious criminal charges against the importer.

 

-Due to other violations of customs laws it is determined that these guns are contraband and are destroyed.

 

-ATF agents make foolish comments to reporter.

 

-Reporter makes foolish story by blowing foolish comments out of proportion.

 

Blame the media if you must point a finger.

[ncthorn]

Although, purely conjecture and just food for thought, who said what documentation and permits, if it was for full auto rifle parts, then they probably didn't have that documentation.

 

That is a very valid point and something that I had not considered.

[ncthorn]

By the looks of the article my guess on the chain of events was this:

 

-Customs opens package either by random search or because of incorrect paper work. Agent notes lack of orange tips and most likely following procedure notifies ATF.

 

-ATF agents inspect weapons, agents are most likely not used to dealing with GBBRs and are stunned at the realism, rifles are determined to be airsoft guns and not in violation of firearms laws, hence the lack of serious criminal charges against the importer.

 

-Due to other violations of customs laws it is determined that these guns are contraband and are destroyed.

 

-ATF agents make foolish comments to reporter.

 

-Reporter makes foolish story by blowing foolish comments out of proportion.

 

Blame the media if you must point a finger.

 

Don't think for a second that I am not blaming media ignorance. The problem is that this is not the first time the ATF has said or done something that blows something like this way out of proportion.

[Stealthbomber]

Although, purely conjecture and just food for thought, who said what documentation and permits, if it was for full auto rifle parts, then they probably didn't have that documentation.

Doubtful.

 

If they were seizing the items for any violation of firearm laws I expect they would be broadcasting it as loudly as possible and, I expect, they'd be charging the importer with something related.

 

Going back to what I originally said, I supsect the original company who was looking for the exclusive rights to sell these guns was supposed to sort out all the US import license and then, when the deal went sour, they obviously didn't bother with the paperwork and, instead, reported the shipment to the ATF while knowing full-well that no import license existed - cos they were the ones who were supposed to be raising it.

 

Bit sneaky that.

They agree to buy the guns for, say, $150 each and then, once the guns are on a ship, they say "We don't want to pay more than $100 each and if you don't agree we'll refuse to raise an import license, the guns will be seized and you'll lose the entire shipment".

 

Fair play to WE for calling their bluff and taking the hit rather than being blackmailed by a slippery distributor.

[farrasdevell]

i wonder how much it would cost to get a professional armorer or ballistics lab to try and turn an GBBR into rs. Perhaps sell the idea to one of the networks for an expo documentry.

[WhiteHawksan]

I'd love an airsoft 'expert' to be present to add snarky commentary on the ATF crapola on it,

 

And the gun is finally ready for test firing...

 

ATF guy rigs mechanical trigger from behind ballistic glass barricade

Airsofter: aren't you going to fire it? Surely you'd need to aim to use it?

ATF: you gotta be kidding that thing will explode in my hands! oh wait..

Airsofter: oh snap.

[tiksom]

"Mythbusters" should be enough to show fail :-)

[kken]

dunno, seems to me that WE failed in the most basic sense in not providing guns with blaze orange tips? or the buyer requested it as such? once it didn't have those, they stopped being toys?

 

welcome2urpileofcrushedparts.

[Crimson]

lol convert to fire real round !

 

What did they do keep the carry rail and stick a real m4 under it ?

[DiscoBiscuit]

Doubtful.

 

If they were seizing the items for any violation of firearm laws I expect they would be broadcasting it as loudly as possible and, I expect, they'd be charging the importer with something related.

 

Going back to what I originally said, I supsect the original company who was looking for the exclusive rights to sell these guns was supposed to sort out all the US import license and then, when the deal went sour, they obviously didn't bother with the paperwork and, instead, reported the shipment to the ATF while knowing full-well that no import license existed - cos they were the ones who were supposed to be raising it.

 

Bit sneaky that.

They agree to buy the guns for, say, $150 each and then, once the guns are on a ship, they say "We don't want to pay more than $100 each and if you don't agree we'll refuse to raise an import license, the guns will be seized and you'll lose the entire shipment".

 

Fair play to WE for calling their bluff and taking the hit rather than being blackmailed by a slippery distributor.

 

 

Great analysis, every bit of that rings true and speaks to why this particular batch was investigated. Confirmation of this would be great, but could only come from WE I suppose.

 

On the other hand, blackmail is a heavy tag. If word got out about this, the importer in question would have difficulty doing business with overseas manufacturers. Since most of their stuff is probably imported this would put their future business in jeopardy.

[Stealthbomber]

On the other hand, blackmail is a heavy tag. If word got out about this, the importer in question would have difficulty doing business with overseas manufacturers. Since most of their stuff is probably imported this would put their future business in jeopardy.

Hence why I really don't want to get into it too much.

I've only heard one side of the story but it does all tie up rather neatly.

 

There's actually quite a bit more to it as well but none of it is related to this particular event so it's probably best to let the proverbial sleeping dogs lie.

 

*EDIT*

I WILL say that no US based retailer was involved in this (AFAIK) so don't go blaming it on Evike or Airsplat (or whoever).

[Hispeed1]

You can mod an airsoft P-90 with a Ruger 10-22 to shoot. Why don't they go after those? Ignorant ATF is ignorant.

[Kalmar]

Doubtful.

 

If they were seizing the items for any violation of firearm laws I expect they would be broadcasting it as loudly as possible and, I expect, they'd be charging the importer with something related.

 

Probably true. It's illegal to import ANY machinegun, not to mention any firearm at all must be 922r compliant. So if ATF really considers these a weapon you think there would be some more charges... but that still doesn't excuse the retarded comments by Customs - "devastating ramifications" my *albatross*. How about just do your job, and report the facts.

 

Going back to what I originally said, I supsect the original company who was looking for the exclusive rights to sell these guns was supposed to sort out all the US import license and then, when the deal went sour, they obviously didn't bother with the paperwork and, instead, reported the shipment to the ATF while knowing full-well that no import license existed - cos they were the ones who were supposed to be raising it.

 

Bit sneaky that.

They agree to buy the guns for, say, $150 each and then, once the guns are on a ship, they say "We don't want to pay more than $100 each and if you don't agree we'll refuse to raise an import license, the guns will be seized and you'll lose the entire shipment".

 

Fair play to WE for calling their bluff and taking the hit rather than being blackmailed by a slippery distributor.

 

Here's my only question about that: It's been stated that Airsoft Outlet NW was to be the recipient of the WE guns. Are you saying there was a middle man in between the two? Some distributor playing dirty? It seems like Airsoft Outlet got screwed in this case. I don't think they would be the ones reporting the shipment to customs being that the owner went on radio yesterday to protest the incident. Unless your saying that's a cover up of some sort.

 

[Stealthbomber]

Here's my only question about that: It's been stated that Airsoft Outlet NW was to be the recipient of the WE guns. Are you saying there was a middle man in between the two? Some distributor playing dirty? It seems like Airsoft Outlet got screwed in this case. I don't think they would be the ones reporting the shipment to customs being that the owner went on radio yesterday to protest the incident. Unless your saying that's a cover up of some sort.

Fair comment.

 

I suppose it's possible that Airsoft Outlet were drawn into this to replace the original importer but either didn't realise or were misled about the import status of the shipment.

Alternatively, perhaps they got involved so late that they simply didn't get chance to file the correct paperwork before the guns were seized?

[-=OGGY=-]

You can mod an airsoft P-90 with a Ruger 10-22 to shoot. Why don't they go after those? Ignorant ATF is ignorant.

 

Because people mod complete Ruger 10-22's bought with a licence; you only need a licence to buy the lower receiver of an M4.

 

-OGGY

[ncthorn]

Because people mod complete Ruger 10-22's bought with a licence; you only need a licence to buy the lower receiver of an M4.

 

-OGGY

 

Although your intentions are right, you do not need a license to buy a firearm. To place an order out of state, yes, but not to outright buy one at a store. I believe you mean a form 4473 was filled out and a background check conducted.