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MagPul PTS MASADA ACR

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Bought and have been using the Beta Project GBB ACR kit and it is proving to be... sub par.

 

I will post up a thorough review of it, its benefits, and its flaws sometime this week (there are a ot of them to document).

 

 

Disappointing to hear, very much looking forward to that review though

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Bought and have been using the Beta Project GBB ACR kit and it is proving to be... sub par.

 

I will post up a thorough review of it, its benefits, and its flaws sometime this week (there are a ot of them to document).

 

Does anyone know a way to reach Beta Project directly for feedback and to buy spare parts?

 

Thanks!

 

It never ceases to amaze me how businesses can conceive a product an take it to production without fully testing it!

 

I think it is down to the near or complete absence of 'end-user' testing. In the software world it's called beta testing. I think airsoft manufacturers need to stop being so greedy and mean and just simply write off say a sample of 100 units by giving them away to 100 selected airsofters (i.e. genuine end-users) to test. The cost of the 100 units will be more than offset by the increased sales of a product that has fewer issues.

 

I can only thank those in our airsoft community brave enough to shell out hard earned cash to be the first to try out the products- i.e. become beta testers :-)

Edited by bbstriker

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I saw a YouTube vid about Shotshow 2012 with the upcoming Magpul SPR. Does anyone know when it might come out? The real thing I'm for is to see if the SPR will create an extra long quick change barrel....?? I'm wondering if I can grab a quick change sniper length barrel for my Masada ACR!!

Then I'll have a CQB setup, Carbine setup and then sniper!!!

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I have been waiting for it for awhile, planning on turning on of my ACRs to and SPR/DMR, not going to push the FPS too much (420 to 430), but I have really been wanting the SPR stock. I am rather surprise the GBB kit came out before the SPR kit.

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Yeah it's supposed to be coming as a kit, with three main pieces: 18" barrel, longer handguard, and sniper stock. I feel somewhat confident that we can expect it before year's end, but who knows exactly when.

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Bought and have been using the Beta Project GBB ACR kit and it is proving to be... sub par.

 

I will post up a thorough review of it, its benefits, and its flaws sometime this week (there are a ot of them to document).

 

Does anyone know a way to reach Beta Project directly for feedback and to buy spare parts?

 

Thanks!

 

Hmmm...I'll be awaiting your review, I was honestly about to post how much someone would pay for a Masada lower, mag, and internals so I could buy a Masada and the GBB kit. Hearing that there are some issues has me reconsidering that option.

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Review should come tonight. I wanted to give Beta Project a chance to respond to my concerns.

 

MagPul PTS' Sales guys referred me to a Yahoo e-mail address from a guy who claims to be Beta Project. I sent my pictures and my concerns to him, and have followed up no less than three times since sending the original e-mail with no response to date, even after I mentioned I would be reviewing the GBB kit.

 

I also reached out to eHobbyAsia and their prompt responses to my concerns was no spare parts were available and there was no way to reach Beta Project.

 

As such, I would NOT buy this until RA-Tech or someone is building spare parts.

 

More to come later. Thank you for your patience.

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Okay... There is a lot to cover and I only have a bit of time to write this up, so please bear with any spelling, grammar, or other errors.

 

There are plenty of pictures online of the kit together, so my pictures will be of what is messed up/etc.

 

My ACRs... GBBR is on top, AEG is on Bottom

IMG_20120524_205301.jpg

IMG_20120524_205313.jpg

 

Personal Statement

Many here do not know me, as I try to play locally in my home state of Indiana in the USA. I go by the call sign "Rogue." Personally, I have been playing airsoft for a total of about 8 years, teching AEGs for 6. Prior to playing airsoft, I was a semi-pro paintball player. I am experienced with just about every system under the sun, both airsoft and paintball.

 

Prior to my airsoft days, I did a Reserve enlistment in the Corps and left as an NCO, shooting near company-high each time at the range. I have plenty of experience with real firearms.

 

Now, this was my first airsoft GBB, but the operating principles are similar to both paintball and real-steal, so I felt confident I could work with this.

 

History:

I purchased the Magpul PTS ACR (FDE) off of eHobbyAsia the day it was released. At the same time, I purchased 12x Beta Project PMAGs (Black). At the same time I bought the NPAS in a polycarb nozzle, extra hop-up rubbers, and everything else I thought I would need to keep the weapon fielded. My rough total including shipping was ($1200)!

 

My thoughts were that Beta Project's kit would surely work with Beta Project magazines...

 

I have previously had two PTS ACRs in FDE, with one having snapped the front of the gearbox off. PTS is making good and replacing it, so I figured that this would be an ideal kit for the AEG that was currently down.

 

The kit arrived about there weeks ago and has since been (at least attempted) to be fielded twice with quite a few shots trying to wear it in.

 

Arrival

The kit arrives in a well-thought out box, with the individual pieces all in their own protected spots surrounded by foam. The kit includes:

  1. Lower Receiver w/ Tigger Group
  2. Bolt Carrier w/ Stock Nozzle Installed
  3. Bolt Carrier Guide w/ Spring Installed
  4. Receiver Key
  5. QD Barrel w/ WA-Style Hop-Up and Barrel Installed (Red, soft bucking included)
  6. Charging Handle Assembly

Installation

Basically, it is the same procedure that one would go through to replace the hop-up chamber on the weapon. eHobbyAsia did a great video of the unit.

[media=]

[/media]

 

In my case, assembly took about ten minutes with all the right tools.

 

Initial Impressions

My god is it beautiful! It assembled fairly easily, and the polymer used on the lower matched the stock polymers on the stock and hand guard fairly well.

 

Trigger was crisp and boy did it sound good to finally have to rack a weapon. The selector felt good to the hand, with solid clicks into Safe, Semi, and Fully-Automatic. Just like the real-steel, you can only put it on safe if you have the hammer cocked.

 

It used the stock pins, so no need to modify the actual body, it looked to be almost drop-in.

 

First Shots

I immediately took the assembled kit and noticed a few items on it.

  1. The stock trigger actually felt pretty good. Its placement is a little to the rear compared to real-steel, but not bad.
  2. The bolt was rough to cycle. It felt like it hard more resistance to it than what should be there.
  3. The magazines were hard to fill, but the two I tried held gas reasonably well. (Leaks through the fill and primary valves).
  4. The magazines were covered in almost syrupy type substance. Sticky and a PITA to touch and work with.

I promptly filled the magazines (which were a PITA to fill, since the feed lips are just too big for a KWA speed-loader and too small for the King Arms ones handy. The springs were hard to depress, which I attributed to it being new.

 

The first shots fired with .25 bbs and propane were chronoed about 250 and would not hop at any setting. The second magazine was inserted yielded 300 +/- 50 (fifty) FPS, a terrible consistency. It eventually had BBs mis-feed and the valve stuck open expelling all the remaining gas.

 

Needless to say, I was a little peeved that such an expensive system would not work out of the box.

 

Magazines

As stated above, I purchased 12x Beta Project PMAGs and I sorry to report they are complete and total ######. I was force to tear EACH one down to individual components to clean the magazines of the syrupy ###### that coated them and then had to open each valve and O-ring to remove the stock lubrication (which had crusted-think ear wax...) and then reassemble.

 

Now, the design of them is actually quite ingenious. Unlike other GBB brands, which have square and proprietary o-rings, the Beta Projects use a chamber that you can replace o-rings from at your local hardware store. Once you get past the loc-tited screws on the top, it is easy to take apart (about 5 minutes from start to finish) so long as you have Allen Keys, a punch set, screwdrivers, and a valve key.

 

I had the following issues and the fixes (where I could figure out one) is below.

 

 

Beta Project PMAG Magazine Issues-

-The lubrication used on the stock magazines had congealed, turning hard and crusty damaging the stock valves. ALL magazines needed to be completely disassembled and cleaned prior to usage.

FIX: Cleaned them out and well-lubed them with silicone oil.

-Out of 12 magazines, three (3) output valves leak and four (4) fill valves leak consistently even after cleaning and lubing.

FIX: Still have minor leaks in a few that do not prevent fielding, but was forced to retire a magazine and use it for spare parts for the others.

-The bolt catch levers are an inconsistent height leading to wear on the bolt carrier. This causes wear to the bolt carrier, rounding out the bolt catch edge.

FIX: I bent the bolt catch lever on each magazine upward, fixing the issue.

-The O-Rings on the top and bottom of the chamber have commonly blown out. While they are easy to replace and add gas tape to, it happens in the field with no warning.

FIX: After fielding them a couple of times, all the o-rings that were going to blow, have blown. I took apart the magazine, liberally applied gas tabs (from a local hardware store) on the threads and it fixed the issues.

-The two plastic halves of the magazine skeletons often have sharp edges, causing BBs in the magazine to jam.

NO FIX: I took a dremel to the gab and it helped, but there are a few magazines that STILL jam.

-The magazine floor plate holder breaks quickly. I currently have five (5) broken from simply trying to fill the magazine.

NO FIX: Both superglue and model glue did not hold the piece together.

-Due to the poor factory lube the main valve springs are inconsistent. FPS from magazines varies up to 30 FPS.

NO FIX: The main valve springs were rusted from the stock lube, giving them inconsistent diameters, thus inconsistent releases.

-The metal feed lips are scratching bbs during extraction leaving BB shards in the chamber.

NO FIX: The metal feed lips were never sanded down, so trying to both load bbs and extract bbs can cause them to deform (which screws up the bb hop-up and flight path) or flat breaks the bb.

-On many magazines, the last bb would not load, causing damage to the loading nozzle.

NO FIX: The springs are too hard, pushing the last BB high into the feed lips where they get stuck. I have tried everything from silicone oil to WD-40. Nothing will dislodge them.

 

Magazine Summary: So much promise, but expensive POSs'. After looking at GasGuns.info, go for the G&P PMAGS. They have a higher capacity, readily available spare parts, and do not leak stock.

 

MagPul PTS ACR GBB Kit

I truly am at a loss...

 

This had so much potential to be one of the best things for airsoft, but has ultimately been a failure due to poor quality control, material selection, testing, etc.

 

Features:

  1. Ambidextrous Safety
  2. Ambi Bolt Release
  3. Ambi Charging Handle (you can switch sides fairly easily with a tool)
  4. WA-Style Nozzle (Fully WA compatible. RA-Tech and other brands fit just fine)
  5. WA-Style Trigger Assembly (To be honest, I am going off of other people on this one. I have not ripped apart the trigger assembly and taken a look myself)
  6. WA-Style Hop-Up & Barrel (You can use any WA-Style Hop-Up unit. The stock hop-up has notches to lock-in your setting since recoil has a tendency to change it). **I have since moved to an AEG barrel assembly since the stock one was not hopping.
  7. Double-Sided Bolt Catch (Theoretically, if the magazine bolt catch lever was high enough, it would reduce wear, instead, it increased wear on both sides.
  8. WA-Style Chamber Guide

A list of proprietary parts:

  1. Bolt Carrier
  2. Bolt Carrier Guide
  3. Bolt Carrier Spring
  4. Lower Receiver
  5. Tigger Assembly Holder
  6. Nozzle Guide
  7. Nozzle Guide Screw
  8. Charging Handle Assembly
  9. Barrel Key
  10. Outer Barrel **Please note that AEG barrels are NOT compatible

 

As soon as I started delving into the actual GBB kit, I started to notice wear VERY quickly on many key areas.

  1. Bolt carrier group
  2. Stock Nozzle
  3. Bolt Catch
  4. Hammer

The issues I have had and their fixes (if I could figure one out)

-The bolt carrier is not locking to the rear on empty with all the magazines. The bolt carrier is wearing at the locking point prematurely, causing a cascadingly worse problem.

FIX: I bent up the magazine bolt catch levers. It seems to be working, but the damage was done to the bolt carrier. It now has rounded front edges from the "almost catches." I have since took a Dremel and tried to flatten it out. It has helped, but it is NOT a long term solution.

-The stock nozzle is not "hard enough" to remove BBs from the Beta Project magazines reliably. The BB extractor has bent and no longer reliably strips bbs. Instead of being the square shape, it is now rounded.

FIX: The RA-Tech Hard Polycarbonate Nozzle is so far working well. Cheaper nozzles WILL NOT hold up to use (by use I mean as low as 100 shots). You MUST use a hard polycarb.

Side Note*** The Aluminum nozzle WILL NOT work either. It is a perfect fit, but it damages the nozzle holder pin on the receiver side since the holder is pot metal.

-Often, the BBs will "mis-chamber" by not entering the actual barrel, instead locking in place below it.

NO FIX: I cannot seem to figure out why this happens. It looks to stem from the hard metal feed lips on the magazines scratching the bbs.

-The Hop-Up does not have sufficient force to reliably hop BB. Even at the maximum setting only about 1 in 4 bbs will hop correctly.

FIX: The G&G AEG barrel chamber seems to be doing the trick. The problem is the consistent is utter ######, so your hop setting will be inconsistent.

-The Charging Handle catch has worn quickly and no longer holds the charging handle forward even when the bolt is locked to the rear.

FIX: You have to completely disassemble the charging handle assembly and you can dremel down the lever such that it will hold it forward.

-The hammer surface was not perpendicular to the bolt carrier (it is canted about five degrees), causing uneven wear on the bolt carrier.

NO FIX: This is a blatant assembly or design error.

-The rubber on the back of the bolt guide has cracked and is falling off, causing a "tink" sound on each bolt cycle.

NO FIX: No spare parts are available

-The front of the Bolt Carrier Guide Rod is breaking off, not holding the bolt on the rod when the weapon is disassembled. It is made of pot-metal.

NO FIX: No spare parts available.

-The Bolt Carrier has a lot of friction moving in the upper receiver

FIX: Dremel down the spacers in each of the four corners

 

So far, this weapon has been nothing but problem, after problem. It is only my love for ACRs that keep me willing to press on.

 

I beg and plead for RA-Tech to put together quality steel components so this can be a field able weapon system.

 

Quest for Parts

 

As soon as I realized that parts were wearing quickly, I reached out to eHobbyAsia and MagPul PTS directly.

 

-eHobbyAsia promptly asked what my issues were and after I stated them, were sorry to admit that no spare parts were available.

-MagPul PTS was kind enough to put me in touch with a "Laurence Mak" Yahoo.com e-mail address who said they worked for Beta Project

 

Here is his original e-mail to me:

 

"Dear Nathan

 

This mail is from Beta-project,

we received a mail from PTS to contact you about the MASADA GBB kit spare parts

Could you tell us the GBB kit where you buy from

we will contact the store to handle it

 

Thank you"

  • I stated my problems and have forwarded them the same pictures you see in this post.
  • I have NOT received a response from them yet, nor a referral back to eHobbyAsia

Summary

For the time being, avoid this like the plague. It is simply not the quality standards that MagPul should associate their name with. I am e-mailing them immediately to appraise them of this and hope the see the issues.

 

e-Mail Beta Project and tell them to have spare parts available and to support their products.

 

Anyone is welcome to PM me or post questions below. I will do my best to answer them.

 

 

 

Pictures of some issues are below.

 

th_IMG_20120524_205313.jpg

th_IMG_20120524_205301.jpg

th_IMG_20120515_191645.jpg

th_IMG_20120515_191551.jpg

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th_IMG_20120515_191433.jpg

th_IMG_20120515_191404.jpg

th_IMG_20120515_191226.jpg

Edited by Nathanial Schueth

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I heard somewhere at Shotshow that they would be separate items, although things such as that are subject to change.

Look! The SPR really is coming, within the next few? several? months.

 

strykesample1.jpg

 

Going to be on show at the Airsoft Expo at the beginning of June.

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Look! The SPR really is coming, within the next few? several? months.

 

I am really looking forward to this, and also dreading the the impact to my checking account.

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Airsoft manufacturers always cut corners when it comes to end-user testing before release to the market. It's irritating to say the least. This is 100% we end-users find the sort of issues revealed in the excellent review above by Nathaniel. When will the manufactuers learn? Being so darn tight does not pay!

 

A huge thank you to Nathaniel.

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Very disappointing to hear about such a poorly designed product, especially from a 'high-end' manufacturer like PTS

 

Again, massive thank to Nathaniel - looks like you've saved me a lot of time and frustration!

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Great review, was looking into picking one up and in search of a good review. I had heard similar things but your detail defintely was the answer I was looking for. Thanks bud!

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Apologies for hijacking the GBBR discussion.

 

My Masada is currently with a tech I'm using for the first time for upgrades/ repairs who's had it 2 1/2 weeks. After speaking to him this evening it sounds like he hasn't spent much time with it, tho in that time he says he's consulted previous Masada owners who have since sold theirs on after being unhappy with them, and upon their advice he's now advising I may want sell it and buy something else! He didn't give any specific technical reasons as to why I shouldn't consider spending money upgrading a few things (at the moment it's entirely stock spec except for a sealing nozzle) but it has sewn the seed of doubt none the less. I've owned mine since feb 2011 and have almost every aftermarket accessory for it, so the thought of abandoning it is a hard pill to swallow, and I would appreciate all your opinions. 

 

Cheers

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At a game the other day I shot my ACR next to my friends KWA M4. Both were shooting right around 360 fps with .25 bbs, he got just a bit better range than me. I've done a little to try and improve the seal on my Nozzle, and got some results. However after reading through a few pages it looks like some people are getting good results from the full WII tech kit. I just wanted to check that it was worth the price before trying it out.

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Hi there,

Hi Nathanael,

 

I feel for you man and I understand your discontent.

I too had the same kind of experience with my kit when it arrived.

But on the other hand, there is always light at the end of the tunnel.

 

What a lot of people have in mind is that because it's magpul and because it's expensive, it should be darn good and working super well.

Well, not the case!

This conversion made by beta project is accepted by magpul pts but as they said in a mail they send me, they have nothing to do with this product and will ask you to refer to your shop or to Beta directly.

 

On the other hand, GBBR are always the same thing; you need to put your fingers inside!!!

Upon arrival of the kit or the mags, always start by disassemble everything to clean the transport and stocking grease(never a good one and often putted in excess) and lube properly the parts before reassemble (check all alignments as well when you are at it.)

Often, it does the trick to get a proper functioning gun.

On every gun out of box, you will want to change the inner barrel and the hop up rubber. We do it for aeg's and even more for gbbr. The beta kit comes with a WA style barrel with 6.05mm bore. Just stick a 6.01 or 6.03, it does a much better job but the hop rubber is really the thing to change. The red one given in the kit does not retain the bb's and if you point your gun down, they will fall out from the muzzle as well, it does not give any hop. Just stick a WA style rubber and your good to go. I have great results in consistency and range with a falcon rubber wrapped in teflon around the inner barrel. The hop unit itself is good to go and seems resistant enough, no need to change it.

 

I also had to sand down the spacers and even more to get a proper cycle.

Hammer also wears on the left side when looking back and does the same mark on the bolt but it's not an issue cuz it's just at the very back end of the bolt. Once the initial contact done, the little wheel on the hammer will be in contact so you will not damage things further. Just sand the back of the bolt smooth and you l see nothing of these traces anymore.

The bolt catch is a bit weak indeed but instead of bending the little notch on the mags, I will glue a piece of plastic card under the bolt catch of the gun itself. Indeed, I need my mags to stay the same to operate in other wa gbbr that I have. and btw, I use g&p pmags, g&p stanag and ghk m4 mag.

 

All I want to say is that I understand you were not impressed by the kit as it comes but all these probs can be more or less solved to get a functioning gun. All we need to do is to do some mechanical work and have proper tools.

 

After all, the Masada is fidel to his RS brother with has defects as well forcing Bushmaster to call them back for a mod...

Edited by lionel_oger

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Wait, what is the point of the PTS Brand if they will always claim to have nothing to do with the product, the point of them being the licensee is to put out better products than the ACM trash, but if they are just going to brand sub standard ###### as PTS than there is no point to the brand.

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I wouldn't bother with the complete kit, all thats really needed from it is the air nozzle. A good alternative is http://airsoftpro.cz/eshop/product_info.php?products_id=1522. As for the hopup unit itself, the wii tech adjustor kit allows you to use standard hopup nubs.

 

Awesome, so the wii tech adjuster fits in the stock hopup unit

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Everyone,

 

Perhaps this is the most absurd thing that I've done in reinforcing an AEG gearbox. I really don't know if this would do anything good or at least delay the inevitable gearbox failure. It’s a Flexible Carbon Fiber Sheet with Genuine 3M Adhesive Backing, as Carbon Mods claims. Please refer to the link below. Upon seeing this I ordered one sheet and applied it to the PTS ACR gearbox, which is very much infamous. You know what I mean. Well, anyway, it’s been holding up for quite some time already.

 

http://www.carbonmods.co.uk/Products/Flexible-Carbon-Fibre-Sheet__CMFLEXCFS.aspx

 

Now, you may ask. What's the point of this post? Hm... Well, I just would like get your opinion or thoughts about this. Do you think this would help minimize or even prevent the gearbox from cracking, aside from rounding the corners and the sorbothane method? Or do you think this was just a waste of time and some hard earned money? Any violent reactions? Please feel free to comment.

 

I have attached some images for reference purposes.

 

Thanks!

post-69911-0-27699300-1339783450_thumb.jpg

post-69911-0-28313100-1339783461_thumb.jpg

post-69911-0-02730800-1339783479_thumb.jpg

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If you've used the adhesive backing then it won't do alot I'm afraid as the metal can still seperate/split under the carbon and the only strength you are applying is that of the adhesive itself, which iirc is not a curable epoxy.

 

To actually add strength you would be better off getting some carbon 2/2 twill and epoxy that to the shell after you have roughed up the surface with emery cloith or similar abrasive. Carbon however isn't great against shock and kevlar cloth would be far superior - carbonmod's sister company easycomposites.co.uk is the place to go for that stuff and for your application you can probably get a sample pack or something.

 

I do a fair bit of composite work as a hobby/sideline and below is my gun transport solution - uses a mix of carbon, kevlar and glass cloths and the vacuum infusion technique:

 

post-74882-0-22070800-1339796950_thumb.jpg

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Hi guys,

 

I'm thinking of a project but i'm still in doubt if it can actually be done.

I want to make a TM scar/masada hybrid. So dropping the scar gb and hop into the masada (with probably some dremel work)

As i currently own neither (i used to own the a&k masada) i was just wondering if the recievers, upper/lower would offer enough

room for the scar GB and hop up (with some dremel work) or would there never ever be enough room?

 

Looking forward to your input.

 

Grt

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If you are planning on trying to install it into a PTS ACR, you might have some problems with modding the gearbox or lower receiver, due to the motor cage on the gearbox, either modification would be very difficult. Additionally if you are planning on dremelling any part of the upper receiver, plan on going through a lot of bits.

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