Anybody else miss the good old days?

[Gadge]

I remember building myself an AKSU from a beta spetsnaz, I bought the metal body, carefully used filler to change the indents to AKSU ones from 47 ones, bolted on a real steel AKSU stock... took bloody ages and cost about £400 in parts and stuff.

 

About two years later you coudl buy one and a year after that a cheapsoft one for about 150...

 

Luckily i passed mine on to a friend for £110 but I got tons of use out of it. Its a bloody good gun to be honest but still a poor copy compared to what you can get off the shelf now.

[3vi1-D4n]

I've been thinking about this for a while but never really took the time to form it all into words...

 

Am I the only one who seems to think a lot of the initiative has gone out of airsoft in the last few years?

 

It seems, to me, that airsofters these days seem to have everything handed to them "on a plate".

You want a gun with a metal body or a gun that shoots 450fps or a gun with 3-round burst or a gun that looks just like one you saw on Milphotos and it's all there for you, on the shelf.

 

Seems like, in the old days, you'd read threads about people who spent their evenings chopping bits off guns or grafting mismatched parts together or slowly whittling replica PEQs out of lumps of plasticard and chewing gum and you just don't see that so often any more.

 

It used to be that the tech' forum was filled with discussion about how to graft an MP5 lower onto a G3 or how to fit a V3 gearbox into a FAMAS but these days it's mostly just reduced to repairs and upgrades.

 

I guess, with regard to performance, it's because we used to spend our time investigating how stuff worked and what we could do to improve it. These days almost everything is understood about how the guns work and there are known solutions to most problems.

 

This always becomes apparent to me when I look through the picture threads which just seem to be filled with a vast array of almost standard guns which have had off-the-shelf bits bolted to them.

Kudos is directly related to cash spent rather than skill or inventiveness.

 

I look back fondly on the days when the forums were sprinkled with threads about P90/FAMAS hybrids and advice on how to build a rock-solid G3 or advice on what webbing was easiest to modify into a replica of some real kit rather than discussion of stickle-brick M4s with trendy bits attached.

 

I guess airsofters have always loved their toys and it's just that because there's a so much wider variety of stuff available (for guns and kit) that we don't need to work at it any more. We can just buy whatever we want.

 

I think we've lost something along the way though.

 

LOL, I think you are really showing your age. I understand what you are getting at and I can agree with it to a degree.

 

Having been playing airsoft since 1996 , I agree that there were alot of innovations out there. There was a lot of work done by the Crazy Japanese gunsmiths, building whole rifle systems from resin or ABS, steel or what not. In fact, I found the G36C resin kits before the first Marui G36Cs were available. I would be so happy if they sold the Seburo C25 and C26 SMGs.

 

I still remember before the M4s came out I would chop XM177E2 foregrips, plastic weld them with a soldering iron to to shorten them to fit CAR15s to do an IDF impression; or making my own front-windable Thompson Drum mag. But then there are also things I do that are unseen; like the unjammable semi-auto cut-off mod, the backbone kit for the G3 with a pipe (that predates existing backbone kits, I was the guy that wrote the 2001 G3 review on ASZ), the 10.8v Sub C battery pack inside a PSG-1 stock while retaining adjustable pieces, or changing the Magna blowback system on a Mini UZI into a Negative pressure system.

 

There are the external developments like the frankenguns which we can see and internal developments which we can't see. While there has been less frankenguns developments today, there are still a few innovative internal developments.

 

I do agree though, a majority of airsofters seem to just swap existing parts and call that an upgrade, slap on off the shelf accessories and call that modding. The classic example is when these people stick a tightbore, top of the line hop unit, and expensive hop rubber in a rifle that has receiver stability issues and even goes so far to show me that it is shooting straight, only to jam and misfeed. Best parts does not mean best gun.

 

This has been the case with boys and their toys since toys existed, but in reality it has worsen with the availability of choice. More is not better, it just compounds the complexity. But then, as people build an expectation on the money they have spent on perceived value/performance, it involves their ego.

 

So when I show them my slightly tweaked CA Steyr AUG is shooting more accurate than their tightbored, 550fps VSR10 with the myriad of upgrades, they get defensive and then abusive. Or the Duct tape NPAS on the WE M4. The Barrel re-inforcing mods for almost any AEG with a well placed sliver of aluminium from a CAN etc, while they spend hundreds of dollars on a steel barrel that doesn't zero.

 

It seems that it is the lack of appreciation of what we have and what we can do with our hands and effort, rather than what its perceived/virtual value, that is driving this "issue" you speak of. Its probably the cause of the recession, dot com bubble, fall of the Roman empire etc... LOL

[Tom Andrews]

Isn't also the case that most people aren't taught even basic engineering at school? I had a choice of metalwork, woodwork and technical drawing, plus model building. Last week I told a teenager on site he needed to fit a washer to pack out a bolt, and he asked me 'whats a washer?'

 

I suppose its the same with cars, when I was 17 my cars (along with my mates) were taken apart every weekend in a search for more speed (ha!) and better roadholding (ditto) now cars are so good of the shelf, that only the dedicated seem to customise or uprate engines, and then get someone to do it for them.

[renegadecow]

HERA Glock rifle kit - it's not 100% accurate, but the fact it's all custom makes it very unique.

Why, thanks! A bit of a downer that news of an ACM copy is in the works, but at least it's forced me to draw up something else, and hopefully much more unique. Still to be in the lines of a pistol carbine conversion though as I'm really liking the efficiency of the concept for the meantime.

[Azulsky]

The old days were better with the tighter knit community locally and on the web.

 

I think one of our team members just got rid of a kit made for the TM AKs before the Beta came out.

 

Also remember when having a metal body made u one of the cool kids.

 

Opening up the inside of your gun was reserved for the Gods of Gearboxes.

 

I havent subscribed to the newer bits and bobs type of guns yet...still need to get a RIS on something first i suppose.

[L4byr1nth]

Interesting topic.

 

Do you think this shift to a 'quick fix' immediate off-the-shelf gratification that people now demand in their kit has carried over into the standard of the game in general?

 

Ben.

[3vi1-D4n]

Opening up the inside of your gun was reserved for the Gods of Gearboxes.

 

LOL. When shop techs and guys who usually work on their own guns comes to you for fixes and advice then yeah you know that you still retained that title.

 

But again even then its different today. Back in the day I could make a marui piston last 15000 rounds on an M150 and still keep going afterwards. Today with the new parts that are available you could slap in a steel toothed piston, but still their guns break.

 

The funniest thing is to watch these "experienced techies" coming to the field with their super upgraded 500fps M14/G36 etc and then have it stop working after 500 rounds, with their super gear sets and their pistons, overampping their stock motors with high voltage lipo batteries. It doesn't really improve their game play.

 

Of course that leads to the question "What am best airsoft ". I will be flamed if I carry on...

 

Do you think this shift to a 'quick fix' immediate off-the-shelf gratification that people now demand in their kit has carried over into the standard of the game in general?

 

Precisely, it has. Its the instant respawn, on-demand headcapping, and if people don't get it then they complain.

 

Even with the reenactors here, its about their kit looks, and who you can be or can't be. Its the same off the shelf, superficial gratification. Substance is optional.

[reaper16]

 

In all seriousness though I feel that while there are a lot more 'off the peg' solutions I'm bloody sick of seeing more RIS and M4 nonesence pretty much what drove me off modern airsoft in the first place.

 

 

Thats pretty close minded....everyone likes something else, I have a RS ar, and I like to airsoft with an AR. Just sayin...quitting b.c everyone doesnt like what you like is...well...really kinda sad.

[Tank]

I certainly DO miss the good old days. It was a "simpler" time... A lot less BS, and a lot more common sense.

[3vi1-D4n]

As by simple you mean that people would not complain if we stand in rank and file marching against incoming fire, machineguns, mortars and artillery?

 

Can't exactly start over now can we?

[Stealthbomber]

Do you think this shift to a 'quick fix' immediate off-the-shelf gratification that people now demand in their kit has carried over into the standard of the game in general?

 

Ben.

TBH, I don't think it has.

 

Dunno if this makes me a hypocrite but I think the actual sport/hobby has only advanced in positive ways.

Stuff like Milsim and Period airsoft only serve to add interest to the sport and, at the other end of the scale, if somebody shows me a 5-gallon can and tells me it's a thermonuclear warhead and I have to spend the next hour defending it, I'm down with that and every other player I've seen is too.

 

I suppose there might be potential for feeling under-equipped if you attend a night game without a pair of PVS7s or if you don't have a GPS and a fancy radio but, in practice, I don't think that sort of stuff really causes issues most of the time.

 

 

I must say, I think there's a bit of a vicious circle at work here too.

People don't spend as much time building stuff and, as a result, when they DO build something it's more likely that it won't live up to expectations (the builders own or the audiences) and, as a result, they're even less inclined to have another go.

 

 

I found the comments about the increased ability to build something unique somewhat ironic given that, as anybody who cares to take a look at the AR15 picture thread can see, it someimes seems like the only parts that sell these days are whatever parts Chris Costa has on his gun.

What's more, it's clear I'm not just imagining this.

Get a DBoys M4, slap about $50 of tan Magpul replica bits on it and post it in one of the picture threads and you'll get a few replies telling you it's a nice gun.

Conversely, spend $1000 on a custom-built gun using all the finest bits and it won't even rate a comment unless it's fitted with the obligatory tan parts.

Seems like the last thing we want these days is originality. What we really want is the best possible replica of a tiny handful of fashionable items.

 

*EDIT*

Oh and, everybody who's built custom guns only to have them swallowed up in a flood of newly-released replicas, I feel your pain.

It's always a bit sad when you put the effort in to building something which is unique, only to have that taken away with the release of an off-the-shelf product.

And then, if you moan about it, you're accused of being "elitist".

[PianoBlack]

I found the comments about the increased ability to build something unique somewhat ironic given that, as anybody who cares to take a look at the AR15 picture thread can see, it someimes seems like the only parts that sell these days are whatever parts Chris Costa has on his gun.

What's more, it's clear I'm not just imagining this.

Get a DBoys M4, slap about $50 of OD Magpul replica bits on it and post it in one of the picture threads and you'll get a few replies telling you it's a nice gun.

Conversely, spend $1000 on a custom-built gun using all the finest bits and it won't even rate a comment unless it's fitted with the obligatory tan parts.

Seems like the last thing we want these days is originality. What we really want is the best possible replica of a tiny handful of fashionable items.

 

I saw that with the MAGPUL'd out MJK M4A1 I built, and was one of the reasons I built it. There was nothing unique or spectacular about it, it wasn't all that difficult, it was an inside joke amongst me and some of my friends. The fact that it had a particular combination of parts was what drew praise, not because it was different, well-done, or unique. I can understand the draw of MAGPUL parts (in the real steel world, they're rather inexpensive compared to other alternative), but I wouldn't necessarily subscribe to the MAGPUL cult, or the Anti-MAGPUL backlash.

 

-Piano

[3vi1-D4n]

Seems like the last thing we want these days is originality. What we really want is the best possible replica of a tiny handful of fashionable items.

 

Dummy Garmin

 

http://www.ebairsoft.com/dummy-fx101-p-3235.html

 

 

In regards to the advances of the sport, I am unsure if there are really that many advances. Milsim and period games already existed way before and we just now made aware of their game style and labelled it as such.

 

I had spoken with a South Korean airsofter who has been playing since 1991. He said that for him airsoft back in the old days were like the army, with coordinated battles, section firefights and platoon manouvres. It is because the players all had been conscripted and knows military SOPs, and how to function as cohesive teams. They had team A and team B, it was simple. They call THAT "airsoft", but for us today its "milsim".

 

So has types of gameplay really developed? Or have we just put a label on it? It is a good question to ask.

 

The other question is whether the "instant gratification" game styles are increasingly outweighing the other types in frequency and attendence?

 

From where I am it is YES. But this answer is dependent on where you are from.

[Short Stack]

Think about this though,

 

2003: Player 1 just spent all day on a custom "Insert airsoft gun here that wasn't made back then" and gets a replica that slightly replicates it, but isn't exact. He's happy with it, but still wants some airsoft company to make it for him.

2010: Player 1 looks back and sees how easy everything is now and complains about how he misses the good old days, yet doesn't remember how mad he was about how airsoft manufacturers didn't make all kinds of guns, in 2003. Player 1 is also seen complaining about how no one has made "Kriss/Masada/insert gun that hasn't been made now". he doesn't notice that even now airsoft is far from prefect and far from being easy. Alot of stuff isn't still compatible or realistic enough, just like 2003.

2016: Player 1 holds up his Kriss and his MK.19 full auto grenade launcher and his brand new "insert gun here that hasn't been made in airsoft at the year of 2010, it was made in 2017." and complains about how the good old days were so hard because all the guns sucked(at this point airsoft will probs be powered by air or something and fire 100's of yards, or some thing) back then and how stuff broke and didn't work back then, yet it was still good because people had to do work, yet he still uses his new guns and gear.

 

 

Just saying, a lot of people contradict themselves. me included. The FAMAS/G36C/P90 was freakin' awesome, yet Renegadecows blunderbuss, his shotgun, his other stuff will be looked upon in awe in the year 2015.

 

People probs did the same thing when AEG's came into play.

 

This is how airsoft, and the entire world works. From when it was created, and when it will die, things will improve and improve, and none of us can mortally stop it.

 

 

[Mr. Blue]

Another thing that amazes me, is the price barrier has dropped significantly.

 

I remember jumping to AEG's was a 500 dollar ordeal. 200-350 for the aeg itself, $$ for your NIcd battery or if you had a few more bills in your pocket, Nimh. Add a 40-50 dollar hicap and then a set of BDU's and you've spent birthday, Lunch money, holiday and summer job money.

 

I've gotten my younger cousins into the hobby now, and all they spend maybe 150-250 and they are set with midcaps and everything.

[Mike_West]

Back in the "good old days", I could only DREAM of getting an airsoft gun. But then, the Chinese came, I got my 15 mins of fame as some folks were giving me info (with photos!) knowing I'd publish it without saying WHO told me that, and then there was October '09 and here we are: still waiting for the Chinese airsoft to get itself back together.

[lance201]

Do you remember the good old days where you had to check all screws on your triumph bonneville every 100 miles? When you had to made every custom part on your own? When you had to made your cross country bike by your own or the fairings or cases or whatever? Yes I do and I absolutely do NOT miss them at all because I want do drive my motorcycle and don't want to do maintenance all the time and I want do buy what I want and I do not want to make it by my own.

 

And this is the same with airsoft, I have little time for each hobby and so I want the time for skirmishing and not for building my equipement.

 

Lance ...who still like the looks of his old bonneville

[Gadge]

Thats pretty close minded....everyone likes something else, I have a RS ar, and I like to airsoft with an AR. Just sayin...quitting b.c everyone doesnt like what you like is...well...really kinda sad.

 

 

Dont talk rot, my point was that *everything new* for the hobby seemed to be armalite focussed (and i've no interest in them at all) whereas other aspects of airsoft were far more diverse, varied and creative.

 

Its not closed minded quite the oposite.

 

Some of us inovate and some of us just buy whats pushed at us.

 

I personally chose to pioneer and develop a new aspect of airsoft... I dont see how helping to create and start up WWII airsoft in the UK is close minded?

[faramon]

I must say I do truly tire of the Armalites constant stream.

 

Though I don't runt hat far from the road as I do love most H&K's / SIG's.

 

The ability to buy brings in a flood of, cheque book prettiness but it also does mean that as a sport and game it is growing and that means the companies will be able to try (hopefully) some new stuff.

 

You still have the ability to make things custom yourself and god knows you show me these pretty things and no one in hell will I take some god damn M4 above them but I feel you need to remember this is how it is now and you will have this influx of people who may not feel the same and to complain that it is not like it used to be can be some what pushing, personally I read some fo those replies and they felt pretty anti-new people. To be honest I know none of you posted as such but that was how I saw some of the posts.

 

Show the noobs how its done, make some amazing custom job thing and trust that the ones that matter and share your way of thinking will not go oh blah blah missing some tiny detail blah but will congratulate you on making a truly epic beast of a gun.

 

^^

[The General]

When you get older you just want to buy something that works, it to look like the stuff people use in real conflicts and have some fun.

 

If that means we don't spend weeks with plasticard and JB Weld, well... meh.

 

Plus we have Typrwriter now, doing it live. Nuff said.

[Short Stack]

Plus we have Typrwriter now, doing it live. Nuff said.

 

Thread win.

[Cyclone TAW]

*EDIT*

Oh and, everybody who's built custom guns only to have them swallowed up in a flood of newly-released replicas, I feel your pain.

It's always a bit sad when you put the effort in to building something which is unique, only to have that taken away with the release of an off-the-shelf product.

And then, if you moan about it, you're accused of being "elitist".

 

 

I started airsoft a little over a year ago now, but this statement does seem to contradict with the later following "only thing they release nowadays is an armalite" argument later.

 

I have been reading this thread with great interest so far, withholding from adding any comment because I haven't been playing that long... But it does seem like one half of the posters is saying that nearly everything is available off the shelf (even those things that you would have to mod in the early days) vs another half complaining that there is too little variation in what's being released (because more then half of it are for the AR-15 platform).

 

Guess one constant factor is still standing: ppl like complaining, it's in our nature...

[bladerunner168]

I only started playing 2 years ago So I don't really remember the "good 'ole days"

 

As I'm a tech/mech noob, I for one am glad things come in a complete package these days.

If, say five years ago, the things I really wanted were only through custom work, I probably would have quit airsoft.

[Kenworth W900]

If, say five years ago, the things I really wanted were only through custom work, I probably would have quit airsoft.

 

I think that statement sort of sums up plenty of what you guys are on about. Back in the good old days airsoft was better because the wheat was separated from the chaff. Guys like bladerunner would just drop out. Guys with commitment, ingenuity and enthusiasm would stick with and improve airsoft.

 

Since we now have the wheat AND the chaff it means that the total number of airsofters has dramatically increased in just 3 years or so.

 

P.s. no personal offence intended bladerunner, just using you as an example of a self professed 'tech noob'

 

P.p.s. want some nostalgia? Look no further...

[Stealthbomber]

Do you remember the good old days where you had to check all screws on your triumph bonneville every 100 miles? When you had to made every custom part on your own? When you had to made your cross country bike by your own or the fairings or cases or whatever? Yes I do and I absolutely do NOT miss them at all because I want do drive my motorcycle and don't want to do maintenance all the time and I want do buy what I want and I do not want to make it by my own.

 

And this is the same with airsoft, I have little time for each hobby and so I want the time for skirmishing and not for building my equipement.

 

 

I started airsoft a little over a year ago now, but this statement does seem to contradict with the later following "only thing they release nowadays is an armalite" argument later.

 

Two points with a similar theme....

 

I'm not suggesting things were better back then.

What I AM suggesting is that we seem to have lost a lot of the ability and desire to try stuff that's a little bit off-the-wall.

 

To go along with your bike analogy for a second, modern bikes ARE much better than older ones but I bet the guys who ran old Bonne's wouldn't need to call out the AA as often as the more modern test-pilots, (who have no clue how their bike actually works) do.

 

 

It's not so much the actual range of stuff that saddens me.

It's the lack of inventiveness displayed by most people these days AND the lack off appreciation for those who DO have the inventiveness.

 

Ten years ago we had people sawing up Sun Project M16s in order to build a flat-top gas M4.

These days you can buy a gas M4 for $100 and people are moaning that they want a gas Masada or ACR.

It's not a giant or expensive leap folks. Break out the tools!