Anybody else miss the good old days?

[L4byr1nth]

Dont talk rot, my point was that *everything new* for the hobby seemed to be Armalite focused (and I've no interest in them at all) whereas other aspects of airsoft were far more diverse, varied and creative.

 

It's not close-minded, quite the opposite.

 

Some of us innovate and some of us just buy what's pushed at us.

 

I personally chose to pioneer and develop a new aspect of airsoft... I dont see how helping to create and start up WWII airsoft in the UK is close-minded?

 

Fixed.

 

Why does every WWII airsofter think they invented it?

 

On-topic, I liked it better when everyone had TM guns. I suspect the retailers did too.

 

The clones are a lot of trouble, but we do have more choice now, and it has brought prices down overall, I feel.

 

Not sure I can see it reflected in the standard of airsoft at all - personally, I believe it's the player not the gun, but good kit always helps.

 

Ben.

[Gadge]

Fixed.

 

Why does every WWII airsofter think they invented it?

 

On-topic, I liked it better when everyone had TM guns. I suspect the retailers did too.

 

The clones are a lot of trouble, but we do have more choice now, and it has brought prices down overall, I feel.

 

Not sure I can see it reflected in the standard of airsoft at all - personally, I believe it's the player not the gun, but good kit always helps.

 

Ben.

 

 

Ben if correcting my posts bolsters your ego then go for it son. I write for a living, but my forum use and chatter is a hobby where i dont have to think about spelling, snappy prose or accurate punctuation. I just don't always bother taking the time to check conversational forum posts you know? If that's your major bone of contention then it's a pretty weak post of your own.

 

I'm not sure every WWII airsofter does think they invented WWII airsoft *however* i know that before we set up CIA there was *no established scene* and the nearest you got to a WWII event were days where WWII was preferred but you could still turn up in DPM with an AK47 if you wanted to.

[Kenworth W900]

I know its a strange phenomenon and by know means a general trend but actually the appearance of clones has pushed up the price of TM guns. They used to sell brand new for as little as £120 now they want nearly £300 for some of them (and no, I am not talking about their new AEPs and blowbacks etc.)

[Skarclaw]

I've not been in airsoft for too long, but my first skirmish was over 7 years a go and I was intrested in it alot longer before hand whilst I saved up for my first AEG etc etc.

 

In terms of the "good old days", my thoughts are mixed. On the one hand, I miss reading gunmart and the articles by Roger something (He posts here under redcap), when a new AEG coming out was really quite exciting, and all that jazz. I remember at my first skirmish and the ones after that looking in awe at the various bits of kit people had, whereas nowadays its mostly a varition of molle.

 

I was about to post about how I think the reason why you don't see a whole lot of cool customs like that dentrinty mp5 with the m203 or whatever was about how I think airsofter's tastes have shifted to stuff that is just cool, to more similar to real life sorta stuff, but thats not really true. I spend a fair bit of time on these forums (more then I should anyway!) and you can see that the majority of the guns you see posted up here are pretty swish looking bits of kit, costa style guns etc etc. When I went to a skirmish for the first time in a while, I was a little surprised to see that guys where still running about with M4s with big tasco scops on and viper vests, much like they where in 2004, or whatever.

[1st Commando]

Having been in airsoft for 20 years this year ,I do admit I miss some aspects of the old days but also prefer some of the new ways too.

 

Some really interesting sites and not having to pay £350 for a non hop up TM aeg with no accessories help with the bad parts of modern airsoft.

 

I have been romancing the past with some other veterans of late and as such have some games on the cards for those of us that have been around a while

[NeoVeNoM]

this thread made me remember that back in the old days, we were more than happy with the stock performance of our AEG's.

and yes, those who had a replica aimpoint or acog combined with a metal kit were the first children of the Airsoft God.

[Cyclone TAW]

When I went to a skirmish for the first time in a while, I was a little surprised to see that guys where still running about with M4s with big tasco scops on and viper vests, much like they where in 2004, or whatever.

 

This.

 

Most ppl on skirms aren't decked out in gucci kit here in Belgium either. Most of them wearing ABL (Belgian army) surplus with china nylon, with rather "standard" M4 configurations. Those ppl are also not the ones posting pics on forums. It's actually a bit daunting to post you own pics of guns when there is an overload of (wether you like magpul DE parts or not) nicely personalised "costa" AEGs. The ppl who put in time and effort to tune their weapons usually don't take sloppy photo's either, making the overall impression even more glorious... and that just makes it even more intimidating to post your own stuff. You kinda get where I'm trying to go with this I hope...

[fiddlesticks4220]

 

The "metal" craze makes me even more PO'ed - I've had multiple people on forums back out of sales just because the gun wasn't "full metal" or something. Just because it's metal doesn't mean it's good QUALITY metal.

 

 

That's the second time I have heard this. The reason people like metal isn't because the quality will be high quality, but because metal is realistic.

 

Metal>Plastic body. (Except RS polymer guns)

 

High FPS>Low FPS (For most cases, ROF set ups differ)

[renegadecow]

I know its a strange phenomenon and by know means a general trend but actually the appearance of clones has pushed up the price of TM guns. They used to sell brand new for as little as £120 now they want nearly £300 for some of them (and no, I am not talking about their new AEPs and blowbacks etc.)

That's just general inflation for you. Way back when they cost that little, they still were quite expensive relative to everything else.

[L4byr1nth]

*snippitysnipsnip*

 

I'm not even going to get into it in this thread. Suffice to say, if you don't think about your posts, I don't want to read them.

 

Skarclaw: I remember Gunmart! Awesome.

 

That Roger guy, didn't he run 'Practical Airsoft'? Used to love that website; a very amusing writing style he had!

 

Ben.

[Gadge]

I'm not even going to get into it in this thread. Suffice to say, if you don't think about your posts, I don't want to read them.

 

 

 

Ben.

 

There is a gulf of difference between not thinking about a post and nit picking for spelling like a petulant child Ben, grow up son. You're living proof that you can type perfectly and still not think about your posts...

 

Your argument was poor, lets just leave it there eh?

 

And if you dont want to read my posts I'm sure there is an ignore function of some sort on here, most forums have them, I suggest you use it.

 

Anyway moving on to the matter in hand...

 

What I do miss about the 'good old days' (and this is wholly subjective) is the buzz open days used to provide when I was relatively new to airsoft (circa 2002/2003). Nothing beats that feeling when everything is fresh and new and you're learning about setting your hop well, how the AEG works etc etc. I used to almost live for getting to Phoenix Woodland on the weekends in those days.

 

The whole office at GW HQ had the airsoft bug and we spent all week talking about it and all weekend playing it! Every day someone had a new toy arrive from Hong Kong which would do the rounds. Exciting stuff. These days I do feel rather jaded a bit and it has to be a truly exceptional new development/aeg/bit of kit to get me motivated.

[Kenworth W900]

That's just general inflation for you. Way back when they cost that little, they still were quite expensive relative to everything else.

 

Actually Renegade I was posting in response to the comment (below) that the appearance of clones has lowered the price of the high end guns. As such, my point is that in the case of the TM price hikes they have gone UP because of the appearance of clones. An £80-£100 increase in 3 years would be some hell of an inflation.

 

IMO, its probably two things, one that they (firesupport, zero one) have seen how those online stores which sell cybergun ###### and cheap springers somehow used to sell at least a few TM guns at ridiculous prices to total noobs in the airsoft scene (i.e. couldn't be bothered to find more websites). And two, its a gamble that if there is such a huge price difference between clones and TM guns that some gucci noobs will pay to buy what they assume must be the best (sort of like some fat-cat ordering the most expensive bottle of champagne in a restaurant without having any clue whether its necessarily any better than the other champagnes available just to flash his or her cash)

 

 

The clones are a lot of trouble, but we do have more choice now, and it has brought prices down overall, I feel.

[1st Commando]

I think some players think "the good old days" were 4 years ago

 

Back before the Chinese invasion and before even CA started doing their own aegs ( they started making metal bodies for armalites) you would expect to pay £350 for a TM aeg with only a lowcap in the box for company (no battery etc)

[mikoyan99]

There is a flipside to the greater range and lower cost of guns - it makes projects far cheaper and easier to do. When guns used to be around the £350.00 mark (they were a bit lower when I started, ~£200.00), i'd imagine you'd be very reluctant to start chopping it around, especially, if like myself, you're a bit of an amateur at it/underequiped. With a gun that costs say, £70.00 second hand, i'm far less reluctant to start hacking it to pieces and turning it into another gun, and if it dosen't turn out well, then it doesn't matter nearly as much. A wider range means a better choice of starting guns as well; my type-100 wouldn't have been as possible without the new AGM sten for example.

So while less people may be modifying guns, those that would anyway like myself have a far easier time of it.

 

The whole office at GW HQ had the airsoft bug and we spent all week talking about it and all weekend playing it! Every day someone had a new toy arrive from Hong Kong which would do the rounds. Exciting stuff. These days I do feel rather jaded a bit and it has to be a truly exceptional new development/aeg/bit of kit to get me motivated.

 

That just sounds like life in general! I think perhaps that it's true of every hobby; it all feels new and exciting to begin with, but eventually you've seen it all/think you've seen it all and some of the original novelty wears off.

regards,

-Matt

[1st Commando]

I agree with both points there mate

[TheFull9]

A lot of the root of this seems to be that the trends for what people want from their hobby have changed significantly, and that's what seems to be causing a bit of a 'rift' amongst the community. People now want their accurate VLTOR/LaRue/Magpul products with the correct trademarks and tactical gear that looks bob on to what the guys out in Afghanistan are rocking around with, presumably because a lot of them see a lot of news reports/TV series/Generation kill and play CoD and Bad Company and wish they could do something like that for real, obviously without the actual getting shot part. On the other side of things, I get the impression that the old way was for airsoft to be a lot more zany and random than it is now, people doing stuff like bolting a G36 a FAMAS and a P90 together to make something unique.

 

Thing is, there's still plenty of people around taking sheets of ABS and chopping/filing/drilling until they have some sort of bb shooting system at the end of it, it's just that that isn't for everybody, as most people lack the tools, knowledge, time or inclination to be that custom. Instead they go for the middle ground and bolt together lots of off-the-shelf parts to make something that may not be quite as unique, but is still unique to them, and as long as it's practical to their personal needs and fits in with their tastes, that's all that should matter. There seems to be an air that all the garage bodging projects just don't happen any more, whereas the fact is they still do, plenty in fact, it's just that it's no the primary avenue for getting the gun you want any more, so the easier/more common methods have taken precedence while the old-school ways are sort of buried underneath.

 

End of the day, the availability of cheap guns and more variety of easy to assemble parts has massively opened up what was previously a far more anorak'y hobby, and that's what needs to happen, or it'd end up dying an awful lot quicker. We need all the support and numbers we can get, in order to club together and stop the pitchfork and torch waving hordes of middle class mothers rallying together and banning everything we hold dear with more and more restrictive legislation; not hunkering down in our sheds and moaning about how all the kiddies with their JG M4s are 'ruining' some vague and misguided idea of an aura of exclusivity within the sport.

[screamin_weasel]

i dont take much notice of the forums anymore, other than the off topic. back in the day i'd be interested in most sections of the forum, but i've drifted out of airsoft pretty much so i only come on here to see whats going on in off topic.

 

i miss the old days, not so much because of the forums now, but because how growth in airsoft in general took its grip on my local site, and i suspect others. and for how i like my airsoft, it wasnt for the best. i used to turn up with my team, about 10-15 of us on a friday night. in the very early days, we'd be the only paying customers and have to face the sites crew. but it was mint. we all knew eachother, we all had a laugh, BBQ's, beers, fires, and ridiculous stunts were the order of the whole weekend, friday to sunday. it was a good weekend if 25 customers turned up at the site. the close knit feel of the site and its few attendants was amazing.

 

then chinasoft happened.

 

all of a sudden, loads of people know about airsoft. kids start turning up wanting to pretend they're in an xbox game, wanting to 'own' everybody. all of a sudden friendly faces i've been playing with for the last 2/3 years blend and melt away into a crowd of people i dont want to know and won't speak a word to. then rules have to be changed to cater for the increased custom. not just game rules, but general rules about having fun, big fires, sleeping arrangements. all the things that made it good had to be changed to cope with the responsibility of running a growing company. the 'experience' is replaced with ruthless business. gone are the days when the 'old skool' 'softers could grab a gun off the shop (consisted of 5 guns, all from TM/CA/ICS) and pay next time you turn up. not happening anymore. walls full of china guns, webbing, mags etc. no discount for loyal customers, no favours. just a business.

 

this is when i started to lose my love. for me, actually playing airsoft was only about 25% of my reason for turning up. even when i couldnt afford to shoot, i'd go along with my team just to be involved in the drinking and BBQing, and endless laughter. loads of mates, camping out, having a laugh. 2 full weekends a month. losing this side of the experience, didnt leave me with much reason to keep going.

 

 

clearly this is all only how it affects me. the local site growing as a business is not something i would ever begrudge the owner, he put the work in back in the old days, and hes now reaping the benefits. obviously the business was going to go this way at some point, i knew this, it was just a shame it went all weird at the same time. but, from those days of my team playing against the site crew, the site in questions now has multiple sites across the country, runs multiple large events and is generally seen at the forefront of WW2 airsoft.

 

so its all worked out for the greater good, but for me, it killed airsoft.

[Kenworth W900]

That just sounds like life in general! I think perhaps that it's true of every hobby; it all feels new and exciting to begin with, but eventually you've seen it all/think you've seen it all and some of the original novelty wears off.

regards,

-Matt

 

Hats off to TM in this regard, they are one of the few companies which can actually still do an exciting release - e.g. AEP MAC 10, silver pythons, FN5-7, VSR Pro Hunter, Tan M933, Golgo 13 sniper. They know the guns to release and how to release them. Basic formula is a ratio of 4-1. 4 exsisting but slightly changed guns, e.g. VSR Hunter for every one brand new gun, e.g. Type 89. When they release them they do so at a cool gun show which 95% of us will never actually go to in Hong Kong or Japan. They display the new guns on a polished aluminium or gloss black background/stand in all their brand spanking new glory alongside some of the accessories which are also ready to be released. Some Japanese guys are fondling with it and show you all the angles, then they even fire it. That way we all get to marvel at it on a youtube video which we then discuss in at least 3 threads - asking questions like will hicaps be available. Two weeks later a review appears on Arnies and three weeks after that its in the UK.

 

Contrast this to how an ACM company does it. Ratio of about 15-1 for exsisting and new guns, of which 10 of the 15 are Armalites. The way they reveal it is by leaking some pre-production pics of a bare metal chassis of an MG42 or such like (which sort of put you off). Six weeks later a video appears on youtube. Two weeks after that the video's validity is disputed. Two weeks later it turns out that it is indeed a video of a Shoei MG42. Once again we eagerly await news of its arrival having been mislead by the first video. 2 years later and the real video has still not turned up and yet this magical MG42 has been on preorder at a Phillipino or Polish online store all that time.

 

 

 

EDIT: I take issue with this statement from CKinnerley... 'We need all the support and numbers we can get, in order to club together and stop the pitchfork and torch waving hordes of middle class mothers rallying together and banning everything we hold dear with more and more restrictive legislation'.

 

Many new airsofters wouldn't have the commitment to help save/fight for airsoft. As bladerunner said before, if airsoft wasn't as easy a hobby to get into as it is today he probs would have given up on it. Just like many other guys would if airsoft were tackled by legislation once again. To paraphrase Blackadder Goes Forth 'for the noobs it is a mundane and phasical pursuit, for us it is the basis of an entire culture'

[TheFull9]

EDIT: I take issue with this statement from CKinnerley... 'We need all the support and numbers we can get, in order to club together and stop the pitchfork and torch waving hordes of middle class mothers rallying together and banning everything we hold dear with more and more restrictive legislation'.

 

Many new airsofters wouldn't have the commitment to help save/fight for airsoft. As bladerunner said before, if airsoft wasn't as easy a hobby to get into as it is today he probs would have given up on it. Just like many other guys would if airsoft were tackled by legislation once again. To paraphrase Blackadder Goes Forth 'for the noobs it is a mundane and phasical pursuit, for us it is the basis of an entire culture'

I can see where you're coming from, and you're mostly right. However, for every X number of new players that start up, there's going to be Y out of that number are going to have the commitment. What the ratio of X to Y might be I don't know, I've got no illusions that it's actually very small. But no matter how small it is, the sheer undeniable maths are that the more players there are, the more there will be that do bother to fight to save the sport against the uneducated masses.

[L4byr1nth]

Some tosh

1./ I'm (thankfully) not your son, though I appreciate the patronising connotations of the word in the context of your posts.

 

2./ I'm afraid I didn't present you with any kind of personal argument to comment on? A statement isn't an argument.

 

I'm not going into it, though, as I said. If you want to PM me and avoid de-railing the thread further, that's fine (though 'getting the last word/snarky-yet-only-partially-related comment in' seems par for the course, at least where you're concerned).

 

On-topic: I tend to enjoy events with lower numbers now, so I can really savour the quality of the Airsoft.

 

But I also remember back in the day, when the average turnout at my site was about 8 people. Even though I had a lot of fun, and obviously enjoyed it enough to keep playing, I do remember wishing there'd be more people.

 

I 'spose you really can't have your cake and eat it.

 

Ben.

[Peaches (:]

On a slightly related note I must admit i'm torn on the whole situation. I fully understand both sides of the discussion and exactly where each view comes from.

 

Losing a certain side of the experience by airsoft being dominated on some sites by the 'new type of player' can be intensely felt, but without support you do have to wonder where it would be now? My local site used to have around 10-15 players each week, now I believe it's closer to around 50.

 

Admittedly it is frustrating watching people with no loyalty to the sport invade your space, but there are the few that have the commitment. As it's pretty much been said; ok so X% have no real ties with it and would probably turn running if more restrictive legislation came in, still means you've gained Y% who wouldn't (however small that may be). Doesn't that make the whole X to Y ratio thing and everything that comes with it worth putting up with? Ignoring the fact of course that statistics mean absolutely nothing as they can be manipulated to show whatever you want.. Perhaps we shouldn't be condemning new players before they have the chance to prove themselves? I'm not sure, but what I do know is I wouldn't be part of it if nobody had wanted to give me a chance

 

But that's just my thoughts on it, I could be completely wrong. What do I know?

 

 

[TheFull9]

Admittedly it is frustrating watching people with no loyalty to the sport invade your space, but there are the few that have the commitment. As it's pretty much been said; ok so X% have no real ties with it and would probably turn running if more restrictive legislation came in, still means you've gained Y% who wouldn't (however small that may be). Doesn't that make the whole X to Y ratio thing and everything that comes with it worth putting up with? Ignoring the fact of course that statistics mean absolutely nothing as they can be manipulated to show whatever you want.. Perhaps we shouldn't be condemning new players before they have the chance to prove themselves? I'm not sure, but what I do know is I wouldn't be part of it if nobody had wanted to give me a chance

I think the point about condemning new players is definitely valid, specifically by the fact that they are just that, new. No one's going to be heavily committed to a new hobby they've only just started and probably put very little time and money in to, but certainly has the potential to change over time.

[Kenworth W900]

I think that dealing with the invasion of the new players shares many paralells with dealing with immigration. How progressive you are relates to how you view and deal with it - you either accept them or you reclude into your own enclosed elitist club and exclude them. Another paralell is that these new players get a lot of bad press just like there are too many misconceptions about immigrants.

 

On the one hand I totally agree with the old order of players wishing to reclaim or at least retain the nostalgia and magic of airsoft. Infact I personally enjoy moaning about how, to use the rock band analogy, airsoft has 'sold out' on its roots. On the other hand, I just can't bring myself to be such a daft old man about it - we were all noobs at some point.

[PlasticMag]

i dont take much notice of the forums anymore...

so its all worked out for the greater good, but for me, it killed airsoft.

 

Agreed. Airsoft in Virginia went from a tight knit community to a group that by and large includes nothing but people that I wouldn't even lend a dollar to.

[hwagan]

I've been into Airsoft for just over 8 years now, and i remember the days when TM guns and a few HurricanE or CA parts were going for them. I remember the first gen CA Armalites, and most of what's happened since.

 

However...

 

I like M4's, and i like building them. There are tons of parts i think look awesome that i can buy and bolt onto my guns, and i love that. I'm not a hugely technically skilled person, so it's nice to know i can build a unique gun (and my guns ARE unique in one way or the other, even if they're made with off the shelf stuff) without having serious skills.

 

At the same time, i've got a massive respect for the people who really go all out and build things that don't exist or customise things to their own designs. The P90/Famas/G36 thing is amazing, and whoever built it, i'm in awe of.

 

The way i figure it, there are STILL plenty of awesome custom workers out there, who build things 2 years before anyone makes it off the shelf. However, i like M4's, and i like the availability of easy to fit parts for them.

 

I still bodge things together, but i usually fail - Although when i don't, it's a tremendous feeling. Airsofting parts and guns being more easily available and varied can't be anything but a good thing, it just overshadows the really good things sometimes.