High ROF is bad for the sport (rant)

[Jungle_Spectre]

OK, we have power limits, minimum distance limits, ammo limits... but why no ROF limits?

 

a. 10 or more x 350 FPS hits in a row hurt more than 1 x 400 FPS one. (We are trying to introduce a "Hose Rule" in our team, so that any kills from bursts longer than real mag capacity won't count. The offended yells 'HOSE!' and both parts act like in 'parlay' situations)

 

b. High ROF encourages the use of hicaps.

 

Any opinions?

[Shriven]

Your hose rule is ultra lame and will be open to massive abuse.

 

Just make it part of the rules that overkill is to be avoided, and anyone found being stupid with their bursts gets banned/penalised.

[Crocodilo]

What about supression fire? Won it fall under this as well ?

I see long bursts as an effective way to bust lack of honor. I usually keep shooting untill i hear "HIT".

But hey, i'm a gunner.

[stewpidbear]

Perhaps it would be better to limit the rof of the gun instead, ie. no gun with a rof of over 20. In RS terms the MG42 of WW2 fame was renowned for having a very high rate of fire and that was 1200rpm. Does anyone really need a higher rate of fire of over 20? Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

[Inari]

Nice idealistic idea; but it won't work. The only way to introduce on ROF limit is with the site itself, test the ROF just as you have to chrono your equipment. You can have greater ROF for support guns, for obvious reasons.

[lemming_ie]

I'd go with what Shriven has said and encourage players to think about how they're conducting their fire rather than trying to bring in subjective "feels like ten seconds" rules that are wildly open to abuse - either intentional or not. When you're the one getting belted with three seconds worth of BBs, it'll always feel like ten seconds.

[SwatMP5man]

I'm split on the idea, on the one hadn i prefer CQB where i love semi auto only, and use only mid caps in my masada. However i also own a Minimi, which i am ashamed to admit i have upgraded to roughly 32rps at 335fps, firing out of a 3000 round box mag. Outdoors it gets used more than the masada due to the rof keeping heads down, and the CA hop unit actually being better than the original.

[lemming_ie]

Outdoors it gets used more than the masada due to the rof keeping heads down

 

I don't think that the original suggestion was to discourage suppression fire, rather the act of hosing somebody down. I'm open to correction on that of course. If you're putting down suppression fire (I am a support gunner at heart) and someone happens to get hit, hey-ho that's how it goes and you simply shift your aim/fire as best you can.

[druid799]

I don't think that the original suggestion was to discourage suppression fire, rather the act of hosing somebody down. I'm open to correction on that of course. If you're putting down suppression fire (I am a support gunner at heart) and someone happens to get hit, hey-ho that's how it goes and you simply shift your aim/fire as best you can.

also hope this thread is in relation to your point (i"m a support gunner as well) , but i think ultimately unless the site limits ROF of fire your all ways going to have problems , you get players who will maintain control of there fire but you"ll still get some f**kwit with a gun doing silly rate of fire hosing the ###### out of people nature of the beast

[Tinkerton]

high ROF is a side effect of reduced trigger lag. And the system you suggested is, no offense, but completely retarded. You'll get every man and his dog shouting 'hose!' and nobody will take their hits and it'd be a nightmare.

 

I personally have a 40 RPS mp5k. why? becuase 1: i can, and 2: its amazingly effective at area denial. point it and shoot, and you can keep an entire window/door/bunker surpressed for long enough to move into better cover, while only having to fire for 1/2 a second.

 

However, i do agree with FPS limits linked to ROF. My mp5k only chronos at 240, and i'm very happy with that. i wouldnt want to use it if it chrono'd at over 300 as i'd feel uncomfortable putting that much power downrange, whereas at 240 its very much more a close quarters weapon.

 

Also, hicaps isnt encouraged by any characteristic of the gun. FPS? doesnt affect use of hicaps, ROF? doesnt affect use of hicaps (in fact, the higher the ROF, the less likely hicaps are to be used, as a majority of them can't keep up with the speed required to reliably feed the bb's)

 

hicaps (and use thereof) are affected by two things: how many rounds a player wants to carry, and their budget. When i first started airsoft with an AK, i had two hicaps, becuase that's what my budget stretched to (at the time the new generation of cheap MAG mids, etc weren't available, so it was standards or nothing) i had 1200 rounds and that would last me a good few hours of play, which is what i wanted.

 

Also, whats WRONG with hicaps on a standard skirmish day? i understand the desire to keep away from them for milsim/more realistic events, but on a standard game day if you're getting annoyed by them they either find a new site, or learn some tolerance.

 

Everybody plays airsoft different ways, dont let your prejudices affect the sport.

[Isamu]

just limit the permited rds, for example, in some fields we are only allowed to shoot bursts of 3 or 6bbs, a bit more for gunners. if someone is found "hosing" he gets a healthy chat

 

But I agree, hosers are just lame

[Scrubdown]

not everyone abuses high ROF setups

[demoncase]

Meh.... The monster ROF/utra short trigger response thing is just the latest in a string of 'upgrade fashions'. Don't bother me at all.

 

I don't do it to my guns- but it doesn't bother me playing against people who have....

 

Of course, It seems to be yet another thing to add to the Big Book Of Airsofters Excuses when you failed- "I couldn't take them as they were all shooting at 2000rpm with hicaps- Hosers!"....

 

A related aside- I've been playing airsoft 10 years this year and have ceased to get my panties in a bunch about the 'right way to airsoft', 'midcaps vs hicaps' and all the rest of the pointless politicing/bickering/whining that we seem to indulge in more than playing.

These days:

1. I roll up with my gear and guns then play- the way I feel like it

2. Provided what you are carrying/shooting/doing on site meets the site/game rules, why should you feel the need to dictate to others how they should play?

3. Fundamentally- It's just a game No more, no less.

[RSM]

high ROF is a side effect of reduced trigger lag. And the system you suggested is, no offense, but completely retarded. You'll get every man and his dog shouting 'hose!' and nobody will take their hits and it'd be a nightmare.

 

I personally have a 40 RPS mp5k. why? becuase 1: i can, and 2: its amazingly effective at area denial. point it and shoot, and you can keep an entire window/door/bunker surpressed for long enough to move into better cover, while only having to fire for 1/2 a second.

 

However, i do agree with FPS limits linked to ROF. My mp5k only chronos at 240, and i'm very happy with that. i wouldnt want to use it if it chrono'd at over 300 as i'd feel uncomfortable putting that much power downrange, whereas at 240 its very much more a close quarters weapon.

 

Also, hicaps isnt encouraged by any characteristic of the gun. FPS? doesnt affect use of hicaps, ROF? doesnt affect use of hicaps (in fact, the higher the ROF, the less likely hicaps are to be used, as a majority of them can't keep up with the speed required to reliably feed the bb's)

 

hicaps (and use thereof) are affected by two things: how many rounds a player wants to carry, and their budget. When i first started airsoft with an AK, i had two hicaps, becuase that's what my budget stretched to (at the time the new generation of cheap MAG mids, etc weren't available, so it was standards or nothing) i had 1200 rounds and that would last me a good few hours of play, which is what i wanted.

 

Also, whats WRONG with hicaps on a standard skirmish day? i understand the desire to keep away from them for milsim/more realistic events, but on a standard game day if you're getting annoyed by them they either find a new site, or learn some tolerance.

 

Everybody plays airsoft different ways, dont let your prejudices affect the sport.

 

I play pretty much the same way but around the 32rps at the edge of the site limits...yet there are times where I can use full auto in open areas but will switch to semi out of respect for the fact we don't pay to get hosed to bits.

 

If I don't want to play as a LWRC auto-rifleman then I'll pick up another gun that runs at 700rpm and use midcaps....typically at games where the ready deployment of weight of fire isn't central to overcoming an engagement.

[bankz5152]

My P90 shoots 330fps @ around 33rps but I rarely ever fire more than around 10rds a burst.

 

Also Ive played with a fair few players over the years who refuse to acknoledge they have been hit dispite 3 rounds to the chest at a relative close range. Therefore I fire a short burst to make sure they know they have been shot with out a doubt, little mean I know but some people are *albatrosses*.

 

Also a ROF limit would remove the use of some GBBs, my MP9 on propane fires off around 28 - 29rps, M11s can do quicker i think aswell as G18s/G23Fs firing bloody quick.

 

Maybe a round limit if your gun is over a certain ROF? Would make hosing very very hard.

[Azulsky]

Just introduce magazine capacity limits and

 

They will have to hump alot of mags

 

They will lower their ROF

 

They will get really good with their trigger fingers

 

I have high ROF on a few of my guns, it makes a tremendous difference for brush penetration and the hits call themselves.

 

 

Since i use mids or marui locaps it works out decently, i have about the amount of trigger time on automatic that the real firearm has, so calling it unrealistic is a little....unrealistic.

[faramon]

I have always felt it comes down to sensible players, if the player is a blind idiot who sprays because he doesn't care about inflicting a lot of damage to some one then thats the wrong way of thinking.

 

You have to respect your fellow players, sometimes it is necessary to do a few round extra for those people who are of the less honourable way of playing (not taking hits) but overkill should never be tolerated.

[SuperJesus37]

The line to the chrono is already long enough lol

[Rvrstyxx]

In my opinion, ROF should be restricted by a mixture of what the real steel fires and the proper use of the gun, for example, assault rifles don't need a huge rof, because you shouldn't be firing full auto, and it only takes one BB to out someone, similarly smgs don't need a satanic rof, whereas lmg/support guns aren't really precision weapons, more for area suppression or 'meat grinder' applications, so a high rate of fire is necessary, the faster you can fill the air with BBs the better.

[Azulsky]

I understand that its a bit malicious to lay 100 rounds into a person, and if that is a problem then it needs to be dealt with.

 

Most people equate suppression with the amount of bb's in the air. In practice it is not that. You only need to place enough rounds downrange in order to make the opfor halt firing or maneuvering. Any more rounds than this you are wasting ammo.

 

Assault Rifles in the real world as designed for short to medium range precision shots, done in semiautomatic. In airsoft you dont get the precision of a real gun, even at the short ranges you engage at. I have seen some players use Semi-Auto exclusively and it does work decently enough providing opfor call hits. However those folks have a very very restricted ability to suppress because they opfor isnt threatened from volume of fire. However when you have a high ROF aeg(like my M16VN @ ~30-35ish) for the 4 seconds of time i have with a single midcap magazine(120rnds/30 rounds/sec = 4 seconds). I can basically guarantee that i hit what i am aiming at due to the high volume of fire making up for the lack of precision and brush obstacles.

 

 

LMGs need to be of a decent but not crazy rof. Their ability to suppress is part of their volume of fire but more directly related to the time frame of which they can sustain that fire. a LMG at 15rps is going to suppress just as well as an LMG at 30 rps. In fact over long durations it will suppress better as you time spent reloading is much less.

[aznriptide859]

TBH, some places have FPS limits - for those who want to get more out of their gun, the most sensible upgrade is to then up the ROF.

 

Plus, a higher ROF (say, 30+) has an IMMENSE moral boost/killer on the field - you can make people run away just with its intimidation factor. You have no idea how many times I've seen people hear some of my HS guns fire on the field, then turn my way and drop their jaws XD.

[Jungle_Spectre]

Hey, sorry for not making myself clear from the start: I did NOT mean to bash high ROF per se. It is just that I saw it curious that there are so many rules about other things while nobody seems to care about ROF.

 

I mean, when I started playing like ten years ago, the only rules were "wear goggles", "call your hits" (and "don't overkill" ). Nowadays however you have to call your lawyer before you even take a shot!

 

Perhaps I should have titled this "Less Rules and More Common Sense", LOL.

 

PS: On the subject of suppressive fire, I've seen some people suppress much better with a bolt action than with a Minimi...

[AnakChan]

High ROF has its place. But I think what's defined as, or the borderline of, abuse of high ROF is really the question. I'd agree with others here before have mentioned, it's difficult to band high ROF. My team has previously used ammo limit to indirectly control high ROF. They still could but they just run out of ammo - no refill on field (and no re-fill off field and walk back in).

 

My 2 yen worth

[Roecar]

On the matter of hosing, I've seen regular ROF players use more ammo in one game than I do in a day. I typically run a 30rps M4 with only 12-13 120rd Magpul midcaps.This past weekend at an outdoor field, I used only half of my ammo versus other players who had to reload their highcaps after every game. To compare my rate of fire versus theirs, they carried anywhere between 4-8 high caps. ROF has little to do with hosing, it's the player that abuses it not the gun.

[Cannonfodder80]

ROF has little to do with hosing, it's the player that abuses it not the gun.

 

Couldn't have put it better myself. At my regular site there is one player who has several AEGs with high rof, but he uses them sensibly. On the other hand I've seen numptys with stock guns and lead trigger fingers acting very stupid.