Blackweell! Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 So I now have a new TM P226, and rather than go buy all the fancy upgraded internal bits out there I thought I'd ask the masses. What are the most cost effectively upgrades to boots performance (FPS, accuracy and reliability). My initial thinking is a high-flow valve for the mag and stronger hammer spring. Any suggestions would be welcome. Just to clarify I'm leaving the standard body on for time being...Scotland is cold and a heavier slide would make it more sluggish. Link to post Share on other sites
hwagan Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 So I now have a new TM P226, and rather than go buy all the fancy upgraded internal bits out there I thought I'd ask the masses. What are the most cost effectively upgrades to boots performance (FPS, accuracy and reliability). My initial thinking is a high-flow valve for the mag and stronger hammer spring. Any suggestions would be welcome. Just to clarify I'm leaving the standard body on for time being...Scotland is cold and a heavier slide would make it more sluggish. These three things; Tightbore barrel - Doesn't add any stress or wear on any part of the gun, yet the tighter bore means less gas escapes and a FPS boost/accuracy increase results (assuming you fit the thing properly). Nineball Hop rubber - Gives a better seal and a more consistent hop - No additional wear on the gun - Slight FPS boost, tighter groupings, improved range - Especially with .25's/.3's. Rob15's Mag valve shims, available from http://www.leesprecision.com/ - Tighten the seal between mag and blowback unit. FPS boost, better shot to shot consistency and hence accuracy. No additional stress on parts. All of the above 3 parts are easy to fit, cause absolutely no extra strain on the gun and have no detrimental effect on reliability. Combined, the above 3 upgrades will give you a decent kick up the FPS backside, better range, tighter groupings, better shot to shot consistency and better gas efficiency. The total cost for all the above should be less than £50, require no modifications to fit, and can be done by most anyone with a few basic tools. Link to post Share on other sites
Blackweell! Posted February 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Great, how refined would you say is best for a tightbore? As low as 6.01 or will something larger suffice? Ideally I'd be using 0.25's in it so aiming to have the correct FPS and accuracy to shoot this well. Also, how about a nineball mag rubber? Link to post Share on other sites
hwagan Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Great, how refined would you say is best for a tightbore? As low as 6.01 or will something larger suffice? Ideally I'd be using 0.25's in it so aiming to have the correct FPS and accuracy to shoot this well. Also, how about a nineball mag rubber? I've had good results from the Nineball 6.03; If you're building something to be used as a race gun maybe a 6.01, but i wouldn't go that tight in a skirmish pistol. BB's always have the ability to get dusty/dirty in open fronted pistol mags, so i'd stick with the .03. As for the Nineball mag rubbers, forgot they fitted the 226 as well - I haven't used one myself but i've heard nothing but good things. According to Mike Cripps at elite there's a potential up to 40FPS gain when using the nineball rubber and mag seal, and if Mike says something about a pistol, it's essentially a fact. I'd say with the nineball rubbers, tightbore barrel and shimmed mags you'll be poking not far off of 320-330 on a good day, all without fiddling with annoying springs or mag valves Link to post Share on other sites
amateurstuntman Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 I've run the full gamut of P226 upgrades and the hammer springs and high flow valves don't make any appreciable difference. The above upgrades are good. The tightest, best quality barrel you can get is the way to go, keep it clean and use decent bbs and you'll be OK. Link to post Share on other sites
Blackweell! Posted February 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 That's great advice folks, it's strange to hear that the high flow valves and hammer springs etc don't make very much difference. As for the mag seal and rubber, if there's 40FPS to supposedly be had then it's no harm in at least trying...they're both worthwhile updates. Only issue I can see is a UK supplier of both. (EDIT: I'm a muppet and didn't see them on Elite ) Link to post Share on other sites
hwagan Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 As for the mag seal and rubber, if there's 40FPS to supposedly be had then it's no harm in at least trying...they're both worthwhile updates. Only issue I can see is a UK supplier of both. www.eliteshootingcentre.co.uk - Run by aforementioned Mike Cripps. He literally does nothing but TM pistols, and really knows his stuff. He also stocks all the parts you'll need, except for the LPE shims. With mag shims (my own poorly made version, ordering some LPE's on payday) i've found about 15FPS in my PX4, and a tightbore is usually another 10-15. I've had about 15FPS out of the nineball rubber in my old 1911, and i'm awaiting one for the PX4. Either way, the best way to upgrade a gun is usually the cheapest - Rebuild the current system, make everything air-tight and make it all run smoother and you'll do better than any hocus pocus miracle springs. Link to post Share on other sites
Blackweell! Posted February 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 I've dealt with Mike before, he's a knowledgeable dude. Thanks for the help Hwagan and amateur, I'll compare and contrast FPS' before and after installation of said parts. Link to post Share on other sites
Dondi Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 I agree with above recommendations - also consider using the gun in stock form. It just might be exactly what you need and you can use the money on gas, bb's, and spare magazines. I've tested the following parts on a stock Marui P226; I haven't tested any in combination - each part installed and checked for FPS improvement only (I don't know how I can quantify reliability and efficiency). Some of these parts I know won't effect power (e.g. spring guides). As mentioned, I feel hammer/recoil spring upgrades are very rarely useful so I never bothered to test it. Let me know if you have any questions and I can post results: Firefly Piston Head Firefly Neo Valve Firefly Cylinder Valve (piston) Firefly Spring Guide With Bearing Firefly Hopup Rubber - soft Firefly Hopup Rubber - medium Firefly KM TN coated High Flow Valve Firefly KM 6.04mm TN Inner Barrel First Recoil Spring Guide Laylax/Nineball Dyna piston head Laylax/Nineball Magazine Injection Valves Laylax/Nineball hop chamber packing Laylax/Nineball Gas Route Seals Shooters Design Steel Valve Knocker Shooters Design POM Loading nozzle/cylinder PDI 6.01 Inner Barrel PDI 6.05 Inner Barrel PDI Piston Head PDI Winter Piston Head Lee's Precision Engineering Magazine Shim (just ordered this week, will test when I get them) Another test done was to disable the trigger safety lock so a real take down lever can be installed. Link to post Share on other sites
sigma3 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Mighty nice of you guys to post and resolve this awesome thread just when I was about to do so myself. Link to post Share on other sites
Blackweell! Posted February 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Dondi, that's one hell of a comprehensive list. I'd be interested in seeing the results from that. I'll be sure to post my results up. Sigma3...I accept money orders and PayPal for commission Link to post Share on other sites
Panoptes Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Nineball Highflow Valves = Fail. No better than TM ones (and in fact worse on mine). Nineball Gas Routers = Win! Are the tightbores difficult to install on pistols? Might go for one. Link to post Share on other sites
Blackweell! Posted February 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Tightbore is super easy to install, a field strip down to the barrel then disassembly of the hop. If you can do it on an AEG then a pistol is a doddle. Link to post Share on other sites
Panoptes Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites
heroshark Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 done allot with 226's all the above is good .Not sure about the shims in combo with the 9ball routers ,as I think they already come up higher out the mag .I'd be interested in the results. Other thing might help is a vented o-ring cylinder head for a better seal. Something else you can do is take out the shut off valve in the cylinder nozzle and cut 2 of the 4 supports out on opposing sides .Doing this sends a pinch more gas down the barrel, problem with this though is it takes from the blowback .This only effects the cycle in extreme cold though. One thing that I did with one of mine is short stroke it by about 15mm so it takes less gas for the blowback action. You can also take a coil or 2 off the hammer & recoil springs to ease cycling if your worried about the cold .I built mine with the cold in mind .As a test I left mine burried in snow in -8c for about half an hour. Although the power was low it still emptied the mag & locked back. Link to post Share on other sites
Dondi Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 What heroshark describes is correct - if you check the stock nozzle valve, you'll see it has four posts and removing one pair does indeed impact the power output. However, I noticed this might decreases the strength of the valve and increase the likelihood of a malfunction (Marui put four posts there for a purpose). I personally have NOT experienced the stock valve break with this modification. When I tested the Firefly cylinder valve, I noticed the extra posts were gone (it has 3 posts, a bit thicker than stock). Also, it's made out of some type of metal (SUS or Aluminum, I can't tell for sure) and I would think it's much stronger. The measured output when chorno'd between the modified stock valve and Firefly valve was insignificant. Regarding the high flow magazine valves, when I tested all 3 (Firefly, Nineball, and stock), the output did decrease and showed no improvement. I'm guessing this is why. Let's start with how the magazine valves look like. The stock is the gold on the left side and the two high flow valves next to them. You'll notice that the high flow valves have less material at the body of the valve. The Nineball, the red color valve, has the least amount of material, KN the second, and Marui the most. Naturally, one would think more gas would be routed up into the nozzle to increase power using the red Nineball NEO valve. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be the case. Let's look at a rough sketch of the cross section of the stock Marui P226 magazine. The notch of the main body of the valve faces up so the gas can be routed up into the cylinder. If you remove the stock valve for maintenance, make sure the notch is facing fully upward when re-installing it. A is the valve knocker opening the valve, B the gas escapes from the front of the valve, and makes it's way up through the main body of the valve, up into the cylinder C. The main body of the valve has nothing to do with the amount of gas that is expelled from the reservoir up into the gun. The same sketch with the high flow valve - again, the amount of material removed from the body of the valve, has not impact to the amount of gas moving up toward the gun. Again, this is just my guess as to why high flow valves don't do much of anything. There may very well be other reasons and I'm open to theories. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites
heroshark Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Indeed the tm mag valves are maximized to the size of the gas channel up out the mag. If you do the valve and it breaks theres always the king arms alloy valve and piston set, or just get it from the off. http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/king-arms-high-flow-valve-and-piston-set-for-marui-gbb.html ,or the cheaper action set http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/action-aluminum-cylinder-bulb-piston-set-for-marui-we-kj-hi-capa-m1911a1-p226-gbb.html ,or fancy pants firefly http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/firefly-cylinder-valve-set-for-marui-meu-m1911a1-hi-capa-and-p226-gbb-pistol.html .Tbh I've only tried the ka set and the the action piston alone .The pistons are much the same ,don't know about the action valve or anything about the firefly. I'd imagine theres little difference in performance. The ka and action valve look very similar though only having 2 posts. Link to post Share on other sites
Azubi Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Hmm... I think I might place another order with Mike and get some bits ordered then compare with my stock P226. Link to post Share on other sites
heroshark Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 started to mess about making some router shims, and gave up and ordered some of lpe's ones .If the don't work well with the 9ball routers its not a big loss. I'll come back with my findings. Link to post Share on other sites
Azubi Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Are these routers worth it then? At the moment I will just be having the LPE shims, tightbore barrel and the nineball hop rubber. If the routers are worth it I'd go for that too I suppose as I do tend to play with pistols alot when I am home. Dunnpo why I just bought another AEG actually. Link to post Share on other sites
hwagan Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Are these routers worth it then? Logically they sound like a good plan - The internal channel is free of burrs and bumps etc, so theoretically they allow the gas past a little bit quicker and cleaner. A player marshall at my local site carries a pair of TM Hicapa Xtreme's and swears by the things, and i have to say (with other tweaks) his pistols will empty the mags on green on surprisingly cold days. Link to post Share on other sites
heroshark Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 yes, but the lpe shims may give the same effect with the standard router .The only way to really tell is to do a chrono test on all the standard, 9ball, standard with lpe, and 9ball with lpe .The other advantage of the 9ball over the standard is a smoothed out contoured gas channel, and the ridges on the face of it to get a better seal with the bbu . Link to post Share on other sites
pamparius Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 anyone ever tried the new guarder p226 aluminum body and slide? http://www.wgcshop.com/wgc2008/main/product_detail1.php?search_From=searchItem&item=GD-ACC-P22625R&search=searchItem&rs=guarder%20p226&catid=&cat= Link to post Share on other sites
heroshark Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 Not only do lpe's route shims work with the 9ball routers, but the postage was quick too .Although I have no chrono theres a definite increase in power & blowback .I have my hop set for propane and the closest gas to hand was a134 .On the un-shimmed mag rounds were understandably falling short ,where as the shimmed mag was shooting close to straight. Defiantly a good buy. Link to post Share on other sites
Blackweell! Posted March 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 So I finally had a chance to chrono my completely stock P226 last night. Hop off - 278 FPS Hop on - 287 FPS I'll update as the parts arrive and as I install them. Link to post Share on other sites
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