Blackweell! Posted March 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 Forgot to say, the above FPS figures we produced using propane. Link to post Share on other sites
Dondi Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 I appreciate posting your results. However, it's more useful if you post at least 10 or 15 readings as it's the nature of of GBB's for FPS readings to fluctuate - to rule out your one reading being an outlier. Inconsistent readings for a sample also may be an indication of something wrong with the pistol. Ideally, we want to get the average, mode, and median to be similar. You also want to indicate the approximate temperature of the room. You used propane, but one can easily get the same results using duster/134a in a much hotter climate. Finally, if your pistol is brand new, it's a good idea to shoot through at least 40 to 50 BB's to clear out any residual silicone oil in the blowback and hopup unit. Marui typically applies a good amount of oil in these areas and can result in unusually low readings at first. In time, the FPS readings will start to normalize as this oil is removed through use (I don't recommend taking it apart to remove the oil - it'll naturally come off). Again, thanks for posting your results - hope this helps. Link to post Share on other sites
Blackweell! Posted March 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 Thanks for the response, also understand all the points made. I should have made my post clearer in the 1st place. FPS readings averaged over 5 shots (roughly a minute apart to reduce the effect of cooldown). Carried out in room temperature (20 degrees in Scotland). At least 150 rounds were fired before FPS testing (come on, I'm allowed some fun!) Link to post Share on other sites
Dondi Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 Unfortunately, averaging isn't a good idea as there may be outliers in your sample of 5. For example, lets say you get the following readings: 350, 284, 285, 284, and 285. That first 350 is going to push the average up to 297.6, when its likely that the pistol is shooting at 284.5. This might sound like an extreme example, but I have actually had this happen before on a liquid charged GBBR. On a separate note, when you start to get inconsistent readings (for example: 230, 280, 220, 174, 300) it's a good indication that there is a problem. I completely understand that I'm going into details that the average airsofter doesn't care about. However, it's good practice to indicate the individual readings. Again, thanks for the update! Link to post Share on other sites
-Angel- Posted March 3, 2011 Report Share Posted March 3, 2011 Got some trouble with a sticky loading nozzle/blow-back unit. For some reason the unit doesn't move freely over the piston and inside the slide anymore. I've read that cleaning the unit and polishing the rails can help. Which bit needs polishing to ensure the unit moves properly? If it is a result of wear, however, has anyone got experience of this replacement unit? http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/guarder-enhanced-loading-muzzle-for-marui-kj-p226-gbb.html Link to post Share on other sites
Dondi Posted March 3, 2011 Report Share Posted March 3, 2011 Angel - are you using the stock nozzle and piston lid? Also, is the BB still shooting consistently or do you also see a significant loss of FPS? I would start by cleaning the piston lid and inside the cylinder, especially where the two parts make contact with each other. Also check if the parts around the cylinder return spring are damaged or worn down as this can effect how the nozzle moves. If you still have problems, one or all three of the parts might need to be replaced. I don't have the Guarder cylinder, but you might find some compatibly issues. I tested the SD cylinder and it had problems with the Dyna piston inside a Pro-Win slide. It seemed to work fine with the stock slide using the stock, PDI, and Firefly piston caps. Also, I noticed that the SD nozzle didn't work well with certain hop rubbers. For some reason, the SD nozzle significantly lowered FPS using a Nineball hop rubber inside the Pro-Win slide (there's also a good chance that I didn't assemble the Pro-Win slide correctly well using the SD component). There were no problems using the Marui hop rubber inside the Marui slide. I would strongly suggest to keep the original parts around the blowback unit, unless you have no other options. I hope this helps. Good luck and let us know if cleaning alone did the job! Link to post Share on other sites
-Angel- Posted March 3, 2011 Report Share Posted March 3, 2011 I've literally just installed a Dyna piston head, but the problem was there beforehand, with the standard components. There just seems to be a lot of friction between the unit and the slide, possibly due to the surfaces becoming rough with use. Possibly because of silicon & grime combining. I'll submerge and scrub out all the components and re-assemble. Hopefully it'll help. Link to post Share on other sites
Caelas Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 With a metal kit, would other upgrades that seem useless come into effect? I have heard that the nineball piston head goes very well with the guarder kit. Link to post Share on other sites
Dondi Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 Please keep in mind that these results can significantly differ by simply using different BB's, propellant, temperature, etc. It's the nature of liquid charged airsoft pistols where even a few degrees of temperature change can effect power output. I have absolutely no relationship with Marui, LPE, or Layalx and all parts were personal purchases. Here's a very brief test of upgrades to the gas route packing (or magazine gasket, Marui part #76). The theory behind modifying the magazine gasket is to reduce the space between the top surface of the gasket and the bottom of the nozzle. The diagram below is the cross section of the blowback unit of the Marui P226 (not to scale). Notice there is a small space between Part #76 and Part #14 where gas can potentially leak when it can be used to propel the BB faster. By inserting a thin shim at the base of the magazine gasket, it can reduce this space by lifting the entire gasket closer to the nozzle. There are also third party manufactures who make the gasket using an entirely different design so not only does the gap between the gasket and cylinder smaller, but also the surface of the gasket is contoured to better fit against the nozzle. I'm testing a popular shim (made by LPE) and an after market NineBall gasket (made by Laylax) against the stock Marui gasket. The LPE shim is found here and costs only £3.00 (about $4.80 US) for a set of four. The Laylax gasket is found here and costs a whopping 1,260 JPY (about $15 US) for a pair. Installing these parts are very easy. The only thing to keep in mind is how to remove the BB Lip Pin (part #77). It can only be pushed out just like the photo below (from left face to right) - the pin is actually a bit thicker on one direction so keep this in mind when reassembling. It can easily be removed with a 1/16" punch. The LPE shim as well as the Laylax gasket is made quite well and are perfect fits. Photo below is the shim placed inside the magazine case. The upgrades have been installed on two separate magazines: the Laylax Nineball gasket on the left, LPE in the middle, and stock Marui on the right. I tried my best to charge the magazine with the same amount of propellant. The room temperature according to my thermostat is 70°F (a bit cool), using common duster gas, and Marui 0.2g BB's. Chrono used is an XCORTECH X3200. The pistol is a completely stock Marui P226, with a shot count of exactly 110 BB's before testing. Hop is uncalibrated and is set to approximately 50%. Results: There appears to be very little differences among the three. Again, someone doing the same test can yield completely different results. Keep in mind the pistol is still relatively brand new and may need clearing as Marui typically applies excessive amounts of silicone lubricant inside the nozzle and hopup chamber which can affect the true power output. 100 shots usually clears this out, but I don't like the inconstancy in the output of the stock gun. Stock Marui pistols are usually much more consistent, with the mean, mode, and median being much more closer. I'll continue to test the three to see if starts to normalize and begins to show differences. I'm open to any comments, suggestions, and criticism. I hope this helps - thanks. Link to post Share on other sites
Dondi Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 A few more data points - exact same processes and set up as above. It looks more and more like these upgrades have very little effect. It does appear that the pistol is performing a bit more consistently than the first test. Link to post Share on other sites
ED-SKaR Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 You should also test cas comp. My 1911 gained no FPS from the 9-ball routers i installed but it did gain 4% more shots of gas (for those not paying attention thats one more shot ) Link to post Share on other sites
Dondi Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 You should also test cas comp. My 1911 gained no FPS from the 9-ball routers i installed but it did gain 4% more shots of gas (for those not paying attention thats one more shot ) Hi ED. Do you mean gas consumption? I personally don't think gas consumption in liquid charged guns is not quantifiable due to the many variables involved. For example, I could never be certain if all three magazines are charged with the exact amount of propellant. I do my best to charge them equally, but the reality is that all probably have different amounts. I did keep on shooting and these are the results (again, continuing with the test above): The magazine shimmed with the LPE gave a total of 68 BB's. The last BB measured at 145.2 FPS. Similarly, the stock Marui magazine gave a total of 65 BB's with the last shot measuring at 148.3 FPS. Now here's the crazy part...the Nineball magazine gave a whopping total of 97 BB's! This is the total count the XCORTECH gave me, but it's possible that I read it wrong (the XCORTECH briefly shows the total shot count before the screen changes to the FPS reading...as far as I know, I don't think it keeps a shot count in memory.). I have NEVER seen a Marui P226 be able to shoot that many BB's on a single charge of duster. However, the chrono was not able to measure the last BB and gave me a TOUT reading. The second to last reading was at 110.2 FPS. Again, it's always possible that the Nineball magazine had been charged with more propellant, thus being able to shoot an extraordinarily high amount of BB's. Here's why I think the act of shimming the magazine gasket in the Marui P226 has little to no effect. Here's a sketch of the cross section of the gasket in the stock Marui magaizne - the gasket is held fairly tightly in place with the BB lip pin. Even if you place a thin piece of material at the base of the gasket, the gasket will go no higher has it's being held in place by the lip pin. It's likely that the base of the gasket is being compressed and not going any higher. Even if it does go a bit higher making more contact with the base of the nozzle, the numbers show it's not much to make any measurable difference in FPS. I may try to install two or maybe even three layers of LPE shims to see if that has any effect. Again, I can't stress enough this is a guess on my part. Always keep in mind that results vary - feel free to message with any questions, comments, criticisms. I hope this helps. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites
ED-SKaR Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 The pin only holds the front down, it would still squish* the rest of the router up into the cylinder. *technical term. Yes i ment gas consumption. With my TM 1911 I used to get 35 rounds every single magazine. I have tuned this gun to be efficient, witch is why it is so consistently the same number of rounds. After fitting the nineball routers it went up to 36 rounds, every single magazine. Link to post Share on other sites
Dondi Posted April 3, 2011 Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 Hi. Sorry for the confusion...on the Marui P226 the rear of the gasket is held down by the lip (hence the strange "L" like shape). The actual area that makes contact with the nozzle is towards the front of the gasket. Shimming might be effective for 1911s, but it appears its ineffective for my P226. Link to post Share on other sites
Blackweell! Posted April 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 Tested the mags with the LPE shims and the NineBall routers. LPE shims works a treat, averaging 315 before cooling down to 298 after 15 shots. NineBall routers didn't work...the nozzle was sticking to the top of them (router sat too high) and wouldn't cycle properly. I've also got a NineBall VSR hop rubber and 6.03 inner barrel inside. Link to post Share on other sites
Dondi Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 Tested the mags with the LPE shims and the NineBall routers. LPE shims works a treat, averaging 315 before cooling down to 298 after 15 shots. NineBall routers didn't work...the nozzle was sticking to the top of them (router sat too high) and wouldn't cycle properly. I've also got a NineBall VSR hop rubber and 6.03 inner barrel inside. I don't understand how everyone is getting out standing performance on LPE shims. I've tested them on different magazines, even stacked two together and there is no noticeable improvement. Did you get the jump in fps using the original hop rubber and inner barrel? In other words, are you certain that it's the LPE shim that provided the improvement and NOT the combination of the barrel and hop upgrade? The Laylax Nineball gaskets cycle my stock pistol just fine. There is no improvement in FPS, but I continue to get 90+ shots off on a single full charge. Link to post Share on other sites
Blackweell! Posted April 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 I can't remember offhand how much the FPS jumped with just the shim in...but it definitely made an outstanding difference. Forgot to mention, the hop is PTFE sealed also. Link to post Share on other sites
Apex Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 Carn't say i got a increase in power fitting the shims to my MK23 but i did get better shot to shot power from going to +/- 10 fps on shot to shot to +/- 1/2 fps made the 3 quid worth it to me Link to post Share on other sites
msx361 Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Thought i would add my thoughts in to this on the LPE shims. I got a TM based pgc p226, i tried these with a guarder mag valve and stock mag valves. The stock valves gave no noticable difference in fps and the guarder valves resulted in gas being spurted out the ejection port and i got hardly any shorts per mag. So for me these resulted in worse performance, im going to try and pick up some nineball gaskets see what they do. Link to post Share on other sites
Panoptes Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 In my experience, the Nineball ones performed worse than the TMs. Link to post Share on other sites
Blackweell! Posted May 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 I'm with you there. A friend has just installed them and after much slide cycling the nineball seems to work well. I think it needs a "run-in" period. Link to post Share on other sites
FireKnife Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 I have personally not had much luck with 9ball upgrades, none of them seem to like working in my TM's as well as the stock parts do. 'FireKnife' Link to post Share on other sites
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