Arbitrary Site Rules

[andyb223]

Can anyone give me a good reason why a "manufactured" single shot AEG (e.g. G&G SR25 or TM PSG-1) is any more valid or safer than a converted to single shot AEG with either running at more than 350fps...?

 

Also, can anyone clarify why or if a converted-to-single-shot is or would be "illegal" over 350fps where as a manufactured as single shot would not (when inherently all V2 gearboxes are capable of full auto it's only a case of modding the selector to add or remove full auto)?

 

The reason I ask is, having been playing at the same site for a couple of years and having had a long chat with a marshal there on how to convert a G3 SG1 to single shot, I subsequently did so and used the gun on that site. We took a break over the winter and having gone back to the same site I've now been told I can't use the gun on site anymore and that the guy that previously ok'd it no longer works there. They now only allow AEG's that were manufactured as single shot only, not any AEG that has been converted no matter how the conversion is done.

 

Most sites I've read of require a physical block of some description on being able to switch it to full auto - a programmable mosfet isn't allowed at most sites. As long as a marshal can verify that the gun can't be switched to full auto in the field surely that's good enough?

 

They actually tried to tell me that my gun was "illegal", even though 2 other sites also allow me to use this gun (checked again today with one of them and they haven't changed their rules on single shot converted AEG's).

 

Looking at pics of the SR25 gearbox and selector, I'm pretty sure that given enough time and a few parts I could make it be full auto (it is basically a V2 gearbox so the gearbox is capable of full auto).

 

I understand single shot bolt action getting an advantage of higher FPS vs. electric "snipers", but it seems really arbitrary to me to allow some electric higher-than-350fps guns and not others purely on the basis of wether or not it was the manufacturer that blocked off the full auto option, or it was done later.

 

Site rules are site rules and that's fine I'll just play somewhere else, but I'm currently a little confused as to why they'd claim their rule making was based on a safety or legal basis when 6 months ago they allowed me to use the same gun with the same setup and they do still allow electric "snipers", just not mine.

 

One marshal did also try to tell me that the real steel SG1 isn't a DMR and that's also why they wouldn't allow it... but I would have thought that the name "SG" standing for Scharfschützengewehr, or "sharpshooting rifle" would be a clue on that one.

[-Angel-]

Its a grey area. The common school of thought being, if its manufactured as full-auto capable, it remains so whatever you do to it. Some places allow semi-locked auto capable AEG's anyway, but thats not to say its kosher.

[andyb223]

Its a grey area. The common school of thought being, if its manufactured as full-auto capable, it remains so whatever you do to it. Some places allow semi-locked auto capable AEG's anyway, but thats not to say its kosher.

 

that's kind of my point, even "manufactured" as single shot AEG's are also capable of full auto it's usually a part of the electrical system such as the selector that makes it single only - a simple mod to keep power going to the motor would make any single shot leccy gun in to a full auto

[amateurstuntman]

The SR-25 is, the PSG-1 is not, it is a special gearbox, the V4.

I mean you could but it would involve cutting out the whole trigger mechanism and just replacing it with a switch.

The KSC/JLS HK33 is better designed for being single only but is capable of auto out of the box. It can't be boosted up to 350 though so there is no point.

[matt.bee]

It's all part of the muddy waters surrounding velocity, lethaliy etc in law.

In theory, a full auto weapon is considered as such in law if it was manufactured as one, regardless of whether you've converted it to single only.

There remains the possibility that you could return the weapon to full auto at some point even if this would entail replacing fairly large numbers of parts.

A weapon manufactured as single shot only is seen as such in law, although not if you convert it to full auto!

 

Now we get further into the murk. If the weapon is capable of exceeding the nominal limit of lethality (1 joule but not tested in law) it becomes a firearm. A single shot weapon over the limit is technically an air rife; over the limit at which it is an 'airsoft' toy but below the 12 ft/lb limit for non FAC air weapons. Still legal to own but vaguely shakey ground when it comes to shooting other people with it. There is a possibility that this would be seen in the same light in law as shooting someone with your BSA Meteor but again, it's not been tested in a court of law. This is why some sites do not allow high limits for sniper weapons.

Still following me? OK. A full auto capable airsoft gun firing over the nominal limit would be, according to the above logic a full auto capable air rifle. These are classed as Section 5 (of the firearms law) firearms and as such are restricted and not legal for joe public to own.

So in some sort of vague, not actually tested in law way, your full auto but converted to single AEG firing at 425fps on 0.2g is a Section 5 firearm and very very naughty. Makes little sense to us although the logic is sound in a strict law related sense. However without a test case to force the points of law inquestion to be clarified we are in a realm of proposition and theory. A good number of sites just want to play it safe and not risk the fallout should the law be clarified. Frustrating if you've spent time and money building such a weapon and especially as some sites are happy with their use but as with so many things in UK law that's the way it is.

 

MN: I am not a lawyer or owt. If anyone has more detailed or authorative reasoning I am more than happy to be corrected!

[Voodoo1]

There's another factor that may be coming into play with this too - the insurers. As above the law itself is a little vague on what is or isn't allowed, but our insurers have covered us against using AS guns within certain limits including Semi-auto only up to 400fps. Given the law is both vague and lets face doesnt really care that much, then what our insurers say has far greater impact on what we can or cant do.

[-Angel-]

Which F&O site does that cover, as i beleive the new Battle Lakes site is allowing 450fps DMR's?

[paranoiddroid]

could it be to do with the fact you can hammer the trigger and get almost fullauto speed?

 

 

[Panoptes]

If the weapon is capable of exceeding the nominal limit of lethality (1 joule but not tested in law) it becomes a firearm.

No it does not.

[paranoiddroid]

pan in fairness I have heard that before and from what I have seen it could be read that way but... its one of thoses things that would have to be tested the VCRA's affect on airsoft plus airsoft in relation to firearms law is such a minefield.