Blog: Magpul PTS announces the PDR AEG

[mimesis]

I don't think anybody has a legitimate reason to boycott PTS's products just because their guns are similar to Ares' products in materials and design features.

Agreed.

 

But I think they have a legitimate reason to be wary.

[uscmCorps]

I think people should be wary of any purchase they make from any manufacturer regardless of who it is.

[amateurstuntman]

And what gives anyone on a public forum , yes a public forum ! The right To try to tell someone to shut up because you don't happen to agree with their opinions or argument

And please don't try to be patronising by trying to make an issue or yourself look big by correcting my posts , very childish and Does not really add much to the discussion does it ....

 

I believe it does, I was making the point that even in the written word it can be easy to misunderstand the point that people are trying to make.

I believe you misunderstood the point that uscmCorps was trying to make, he is affiliated to PTS but I don't think he was trying to say that PTS don't care.

 

Also, this isn't a public forum. It's open access but the owners can ban anyone they like if they don't follow the rules.

One of which, by the way, requires posters to do so in well formatted English.

 

Anyway, the crux of the point is this:

Who cares who the OEM is?

 

If it is ARES (and we have had someone in the know go on record as saying that it isn't) it isn't a big deal.

ARES have produced some good products (my EGLM was OK) and some terrible products (the M249 is the worst gun I have ever seen or used).

Within the good and bad products they make there are some good ones and some lemons.

 

No matter who the OEM is there is a chance of lemons.

 

Even if it is junk there will be a load of reviews and videos out there about it since it is such a hugely anticipated product.

 

People who really, really want one will get one anyway.

 

Those who think it is a nice idea and would consider one if it worked well (me included) will wait to see what the consensus is.

 

 

Posting speculation is just wasting electrons.

[Phubar]

Who cares who the OEM is?

 

If it is ARES (and we have had someone in the know go on record as saying that it isn't) it isn't a big deal.

 

 

If you're a person who is not fussed about possibly having to tinker a lot and you consider Ares to be an acceptable brand to you, that's fine and dandy.  I prefer to only purchase products that I believe have a high chance of working well OOTB and being reliable in the longterm as I do not have that much spare time to dedicate to constant tinkering. 

 

And people care for the same reason they'd care whether the ammo they use is of good enough quality or not.  If it's not, it'll cause headaches later down the line.  Likewise it is the reason companies have a value for their name; the brand names are assets which increase the chances of purchase if placed on a product.  Or in the case of Ares, decrease the chances due to the common opinion that their products are inferior to other brands that retail goods at similar price levels. (I haven't surveyed many but out of the majority of skirmishers, roughly 40 or so, that I play beside on a regular basis this is the accepted view)

 

So again, it comes down to what the individual consumer considers acceptable.  IMHO whether it is Ares IS a big deal. Personally, the Ares' reputation, their QC reports, past personal experience with their products, and the fact that they've manufactured PTS products before has me backing away from this.

 

(Apologies for going off topic and also for missing the post relating to the "someone in the know" stating the OEM isn't Ares, I'll take a look when I have time)

[Baddbaz]

The oem is maybe not as important as the design and materials used to construct the internals . On the Facebook page PTs said they are going to use the Masada gearbox with revisions .

Now from what I have seen from many owners reveiws and posts is that the gearbox uses an ares micro switch trigger unit , that has failed on several owners already . An aftermarket non ares part is apparently now available to solve this long running issue with ares triggers . And the more worrying issue is gearboxes cracking . A lot of owners are radiusing the corners and saying that sorbothane is a neccesity to stop this happening .

Hopefully this is one of the revisions PTs have made to this well reported problem for the revised gearbox of the pdr .

[amateurstuntman]

Phubar: PTS is the manufacturer, they offer a warranty on the product.

 

For that reason, it doesn't matter.  If there is a problem then PTS is who you go to, you have to decide whether you trust PTS.

They're the ones with the reputation to protect and they set the QC criteria.

 

So, the Masada has had some issues, I don't know about that.

 

However, the company who has the best reputation for reliability in airsoft is Marui.

Marui who designed the V2 gearbox.  The front of which snaps off every now and then due to crack propagation.

 

Microswitches, meh.  Given all the problems I have had with burned out trigger contacts over the years I am fond of microswitches.

 

If a microswitch fails though that is probably a problem with the switch which isn't made by the OEM, they're bought in.

 

In airsoft you have 2 choices.

 

1. Buy your guns from shops, pay more and get a warranty.

2. Buy your stuff online direct from HK, fix it yourself if it fails.

 

I'm in camp 2, always have been.

 

If you are in camp 1, just wait a while and see how things look.

[cazboab]

Personally, the Ares' reputation, their QC reports, past personal experience with their products, and the fact that they've manufactured PTS products before has me backing away from this.

Can I just draw your attention to this:

PTS has not now, nor ever, in the past used Ares as an OEM for any Masada, PDR or other PTS products.

Don't get me wrong, give me an excuse to rail on ares and I'll go belt fed, and the PDRc has a few things about it I'd call flaws or missing features that could IMO have easily been implemented without compromising the design philosophy, but two things done "wrong" doesn't mean its the same people doing them wrong.

[mimesis]

Phubar: PTS is the manufacturer, they offer a warranty on the product.

 

For that reason, it doesn't matter.  If there is a problem then PTS is who you go to, you have to decide whether you trust PTS.

They're the ones with the reputation to protect and they set the QC criteria.

 

So, the Masada has had some issues, I don't know about that.

Correct me if I'm strong, but I'm pretty sure that I remember that if you have any problems, PTS makes you go back to the retailer, who then, in theory, if the situation warrants it, sends the gun back to PTS or orders parts.  Any which way you slice it, sending your AEG back internationally to a web-retailer who may or may not have good CS, is a major PITA. Not to mention weeks and weeks of waiting as they sort themselves out.  It's not anything like taking the malfunctioning lawnmower back to Sears, which is why a lot of people will look for a high expectation of reliability (or, at least, repairability).

 

Oh, and word for the day: Tavor.

[Baddbaz]

Correct ' PTs won't send parts to individual customers . Only to their retailers ... So if parts are required it always means going to a retailer to order them for you . Not so bad if you are local to them , but long winded and a pain in the *albatross* if you are not .had this issue with an fpg a while back

Second word of the day ... Afv ......

[Baddbaz]

PTs warranty will not cover the gearbox , they just stated on their Facebook page reply to me ..

[uscmCorps]

PTS WILL warranty every part on the gun against manufacturer defects. Any part that has been abused or misused is not covered.

[Mrfoss]

Well, this gun was on the top of my list for new CQB weapon, but looking at the first reviews of internals it's not going to be my choice. It makes me upset, since I like the design, weight, look and probably the always good PTS quality feel. I'll try to contain my displeasure with the end result to this post

[swatti]

Can we please stop? 

 

POST A REVIEW!

 

Personaly i dont care who made the internals.

[TheFull9]

There is a review up..

[IBMedic]

In PTS defense, I sorta, kinda, almost, but not entirely believe their claim that the gearbox and internals are not Ares OEM.

But there are 2 things that are for certain (and yes I own the rifle now):

1.  The design has many clearly Ares specific features: 
The quick change spring
The spring tension release system
The unported stainless steel cynlinder
The soldered on motor leads
The 2 ported piston head
The silver air nozzle
The painted gearbox shell with the unpainted interior
The red hopup bucking
And finally, the unmistakeable microswitch

I don't understand why PTS so vehemently denies the connection to Ares without offering any proof.  Anyone who is familiar with Ares designs can clearly see this is one of them.  And quite frankly, this continued denial of an Ares connection just eats away at PTS' already dwindling credibility when it comes to original designs that are not straight up copies of existing real steel products.


2.  The design has numerous features that needs to be looked at.  I appreciate that this is a completely original desgin without any substantial Marui inspiration.  But the internals are really subpar in both design and execution.  You can see the full review for details, but the basic idea is that this rifle requires a lot fo work to get it working properly...

[bladerunner168]

There's a lot of huffing and puffing about two issues here.

 

A) Is the PDR a lemon by design?

 

Whilst I completely trust and respect Noveske's opinion based on his contribution on this forum, it is possible that his was a lemon (or maybe a higher than normal sample of the first batch are lemons).

We should wait for more user reports from different geographical area (i.e different bacthes) before we can conclude that the PDR is a dud by bad design. 

 

2) Who is the OEM?

 

PTS say it isn't Ares, users/forum jockeys/speculators say it is. Does it really matter?

If you are convinced it is Ares and you have a pathological dislike of them, THEN WRITE IT OFF YOUR WANT LIST, ERASE IT FROM YOUR MIND!

BUT I REALLLY WANTS IT COS IT LOOKS PREEEEETY - well, sorry, life is about compromises, you have to take the rough with the smooth.

 

I have no love or loyalty to PTS, their stuff works for me, if that stops, I'll move on to other things.

Not really worth getting worked up over this, they're just toys at the end of the day 

[IBMedic]

When PTS started to outright deny that Ares had any involvement in the design or manufacture, they turned question of business decisions into one of credibility.

In other words, they are lying.  Anyone who has ever worked with Ares stuff can tell you that the PDR is an Ares design, I don't need to list out the Ares features again.  It's like saying the Celcius PTW is not a System PTW design, it's just a straight up fabrication.  And the fact that PTS insists on it means that they have very little respect for the either the inteligence or the prudance of the airsoft community.

I only had generally positive things to say about PTS prior to this fiasco.  But they have blown all their credibility on this one.

[uscmCorps]

That's ok. We're pretty thick skinned.

[Horsem4n]

i just want to point out again that ARES isnt the only company that designs gearboxes in this way. S&T does too.

[mimesis]

If Ares had an OEM that actually manufactured the guns for them, and Magpul PTS used designs similar to Ares and also worked with the same OEM, then M PTS could truthfully say that Ares doesn't make them for them.  I'm sure this isn't actually what's happening, but when you reflect on how convoluted the world of airsoft manufacturing gets (relationship between Ares and Star, relationship between WE and 3HK, all that stuff with different companies called JG and Golden Bow), then there are a dozen ways M PTS could achieve literal deniability.

[Noveske]

i just want to point out again that ARES isnt the only company that designs gearboxes in this way. S&T does too.

 

Aren't they the same parent company?

[aznriptide859]

That's what I thought...S&T is to ARES what ARES was to STAR.

[Horsem4n]

no, as far as i know, S&T was an element of ARES that split off to make guns by themselves. rather than being an OEM that split after a contract expired, but a part of ARES that split off.

[uscmCorps]

Also, for history's sake, Ares never designed anything during their time together with STAR. The lead designer for the STAR and Ares products was the owner of STAR (who spent 100% of STAR's own money on development, molds, tooling, investment into Ares, etc). Ares was STAR's China based OEM who sadly never quite made things to STAR's desired spec. When Ares started making additional STAR product on the side at a lower QC and undercutting STAR's products that's when things soured between STAR and Ares. At which point Ares said *fruitcage* it and started doing it openly on the market. When STAR and Ares realized STAR couldn't win in court due to the convoluted nature of China and HK laws, Ares took (stole) all of STAR's molding, tooling, and designs (which was 100% STARs property) and company investments into Ares. Ares then built their own business as both an OEM and frontline manufacturer, built off STAR's investments. Ares has gotten more designers on staff since ("designers" are not that uncommon in HK especially when building off preexisting designs), and continued to produce things on their own. At one point the partnerships within Ares splintered off and the new faction became S&T essentially doing the same thing to Ares as what Ares did to STAR. There are a lot of designers in HK at the various different companies. A lot of them moonlight for other companies as well. Heck, even the reputable Japanese designers, many of them moonlight for other manufacturers all over Asia. It's impossible to not draw connecting lines between any of the major manufacturers in regards to the designers involved. It's a very incestuous affair. Course you wouldn't know that if you weren't part of that industry, but whatever. I will say this: knowing what I know about Ares and their kin, I don't trust them one iota nor do I hold them in very high regard.

[IBMedic]

 I will say this: knowing what I know about Ares and their kin, I don't trust them one iota nor do I hold them in very high regard.

*quote from USMCorps, don't know why the quote bubble disappeared

And neither would any of us.

Yet the PDR is using an Ares style quick change spring, spring tension release, micro switch, and type 0 stainless steel cylinder...

The fact remains that PTS has never disclosed their OEM, nor where they make it (though we have all pretty much guessed it's in mainland China considering where PTS ships from).  And the extremely similar designs on the ACR/PDR to existing Ares design is undeniable.

How can people not assume you guys are Ares OEM?!