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Tef

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Just going to point out the official rules of that field.

Having played at that field that everyone is giving Ham grief for around 40 times the event staff in the briefing always say. "You may offer an opposing player a safety kill at close range. It is up to the other player to either accept it or turn around and shoot you, always be weary and keep your guard up till they acknowledge" The kid offered him a safety kill then completely let his guard down, if he had his guard up and saw Ham turning he easily could of shot him. If everyone took safety kills we would have no need for cqb action.

 

Though I would say his pistol jammed since it was a limited ammo WW2 event. We were provided with no named bio bb's by the field. Found a few very obviously deformed bb's post game.

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We have similar rules over here, some sites have the 'bang' kill, this is generally looked down upon on the basis that we actually have guns that fire actual projectiles, rather than the ubiquitous finger/stick gun found in the armouries of 5 year olds - it is essientially a safety kill to let the playing you call 'bang' on know that you have a shot that would be unnecessarily painful. It is open to abuse however by idiots who run into rooms of people going 'bang-bang-bang-bang' etc.

 

Other sites use the 'surrender' rule which would apply in the scenario presented in the film. You don't have to take a surrender kill, but it's generally the case that if someone jams a muzzle into you and goes 'surrender!' whether your weapon is functional or not, you accept the hit or try to shoot your way out - the result is that if you screw up you get lit up.

 

It seems your field rules kinda sit somewhere between the 'bang' and 'surrender' rules as they would be interpreted over here. I have seen newbies jump out and demand someone surrender, the target walks off, the newbie is utterly dumbstruck at how their show of force failed, goes to investigate, gets shot and then complains, same when players used to the bang kill play at sites that use the surrender rule - however, it's very rare that you'll see people complaining when someone used to the bang kill goes 'bang' on someone they have dead to rights at a sight where that rule isn't actually in effect.

 

So, while I don't have a problem per se with the specific actions as they were technically within the rules of field, the way they unfolded and the attitude of the player as shown specifically in the video could have been a lot better.

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Honestly even paintballers over here don't do that. You get offered a chance out is the same as being told to take your hit. If the other person is that close you take it without question to be a true sportsman.

Tournament paintball :)

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Granted, it sounds like you're fully within the rules of the field, but I would say it sounds like the rules of the field could use some work. That creates a lot of ambiguous situations, which leads to trouble. On the other hand, out here we have the "bang-bang" rule and as RSM said that often leads to idiots who think they can clear an entire room of dudes who were POINTING AT THEM by just shouting "bang!" a lot like idiots. This has been the #1 cause of confrontations I've had with other players.

 

All of this is on the game admin to make the rules CLEAR and make sure everyone is *fruitcage* PAYING ATTENTION. In my experience, very few people actually listen to the *fruitcage* safety briefing, the mission briefing, or anything else.

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in my fields in CT, we have to formulate the phrase "safety kill" instead of "bang bang". very few people can do that under stress and the people with training and are the moving force, the people who deserve the kill(s), usually get the kills uncontested. there is a 2ndary option to use a mandatory 2ndary that shoots under 350 to take out people in close proximity if you don't want to be bothered with using verbal kills. and a tritary option that's up to the victim to ignore the safety kill and try to shoot the opposing player, risking safety measures using the full power primary, but its a choice.

while this seems less than ideal, there's is very few arguments over safety kills. but usually, when there are a few people in a building, the most common thing to see is the use of option 2.

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Surely the best option would be just to take it as 'any situation where you can reach out and touch the player is a kill'?

 

Then add verbal commands, which is if someone asks you to surrender and you acknowledge them, not as in put your hands up, but you know they are there and they called you out you take it. Saves a lot of confusion. If a person turns and fires then you tag a note of who they are and report it, treating it as the same as not taking a hit (as essentially that is what they have done).

 

Just seems a damn sight easier.

 

'FireKnife'

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I don't even think you do need to change the rules FireKnife - it's simply a case of being a good sportsman with the rules already provided - and that applies anywhere. Good sportsmanship tends to arise when all players see the briefing as a set of guidelines on good conduct, which can be applied with common sense into each individual scenario - each of which will have its on unique context and circumstances. This is as opposed to when the players all see the briefing as as set of hard, fast, rulings, beyond which you can get done for so we'll play up to the limit of the law and see how much we can get away with.

 

@HorseMan - *Warning: Grammar Nazi mode engaged* The term is 'tertiary'. As in, primary, secondary, tertiary. Not trying to be a 'dutchbag', just wanted to let you know the correct form. Now you know.

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I don't even think you do need to change the rules FireKnife - it's simply a case of being a good sportsman with the rules already provided - and that applies anywhere. Good sportsmanship tends to arise when all players see the briefing as a set of guidelines on good conduct, which can be applied with common sense into each individual scenario - each of which will have its on unique context and circumstances. This is as opposed to when the players all see the briefing as as set of hard, fast, rulings, beyond which you can get done for so we'll play up to the limit of the law and see how much we can get away with.

 

@HorseMan - *Warning: Grammar Nazi mode engaged* The term is 'tertiary'. As in, primary, secondary, tertiary. Not trying to be a 'dutchbag', just wanted to let you know the correct form. Now you know.

 

While I agree with you in thoery, in the actual practical application it often needs to be changed. I have been to sites that say the above, if you can touch someone you take it, if they give you a verbal command and you turn to find them under 3m then you also take it, same as if they shot you. It does seem that a lot of sites now that I used to attend and now attend have lost that sportsman edge, people are still finding ever inventive ways to avoid hit taking and if you don't lay down a hard and fast ruling then they will argue the toss. A site I used to play had a rule, if you were given a surrender option it is up to you to take it unless they can reach out and touch you with an open hand in which case you took the hit. Back when I first went to the site, no issue at all, people took what they had to and many of the on site teams had gentlemans agreements that they would fire if it was one another, but take it if anyone else. Now pop about 2-3 years down the line and it is the opposite, everyone was blasting everyone else at close range and leading to a lot of arguments and challenges from other players as the rule was open to abuse. It was then changed, if you acknowledge a surrender even by just turning on the spot that is it, it is a hit.

 

While I would love to live in a world of good sportsman ship and nothing else that will never happen, people will cheat, players wont understand rules and others will accuse players of cheating when they have done nothing wrong. I just do my bit to lead by example by taking every hit that I know is a hit, even the unsure of ones I take, just to make sure, but while I used to feel that was like everyone else particularly up here in Aberdeen I feel like the exception and that is not a good sign.

 

Also when did 'dutchbag' come into use :P?

 

'FireKnife'

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Bang rule should be scrapped, just leads to confusion and arguments. At one site i play at they use safety kills if you are in arms length of the other player.

 

Would help if people weren't firing hot guns at my local sites that close. But if the limit was 350 and semi auto consideration if that close I would be fine with that in the woods. 328 indoors.

 

'FireKnife'

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Would help if people weren't firing hot guns at my local sites that close. But if the limit was 350 and semi auto consideration if that close I would be fine with that in the woods. 328 indoors.

 

'FireKnife'

 

I agree, hot guns at close range isn't fun.. Last game i played i got lit up in the side of the head by a hot gun after i suprised him walking round a corner under 5m. Lets just say i wasn't pleased :P

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I agree, hot guns at close range isn't fun.. Last game i played i got lit up in the side of the head by a hot gun after i suprised him walking round a corner under 5m. Lets just say i wasn't pleased :P

 

Up here we have:

 

1: A site that doesn't even own a chrono, the site owner doesn't know how one works and he regularly takes guns that are reported in reviews to be firing 400-450fps as weapons to use in a built up prop village.

 

2: A site that at the end of the day lets you all go out with any gun you can find that is gas and you only go out when you can't take the pain any more. Having a 8 inch Dan Wesson pointed at you isn't fun when you know what FPS it does (said user also had them on him the whole time during the day, that worries me a lot, especially as at this site he was running the chrono).

 

Now you see why I want to move :P.

 

Damn, can't find a video to post up, apart from the intro to a documentary that never ever got made back in 2006-2007 and that is terrible.

 

'FireKnife'

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Up here we have:

 

1: A site that doesn't even own a chrono, the site owner doesn't know how one works and he regularly takes guns that are reported in reviews to be firing 400-450fps as weapons to use in a built up prop village.

 

2: A site that at the end of the day lets you all go out with any gun you can find that is gas and you only go out when you can't take the pain any more. Having a 8 inch Dan Wesson pointed at you isn't fun when you know what FPS it does (said user also had them on him the whole time during the day, that worries me a lot, especially as at this site he was running the chrono).

 

Now you see why I want to move :P.

 

Damn, can't find a video to post up, apart from the intro to a documentary that never ever got made back in 2006-2007 and that is terrible.

 

'FireKnife'

 

Places like this will be the downfall of airsoft. We are very priveleged to be able to do this hobby in the UK.

 

There needs to be regulation of airsoft sites that ensure that RIFs arent being mis used, Maybe even send unannounced individuals to reported sites to access the situation and hand out fines for misconduct

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@HorseMan - *Warning: Grammar Nazi mode engaged* The term is 'tertiary'. As in, primary, secondary, tertiary. Not trying to be a 'dutchbag', just wanted to let you know the correct form. Now you know.

lol, i didn't even know that there was a correct way to say it. i cant remember where, but i saw tritary in a videogame once. stuck with me. didnt know tertiary was a word in the dictionary.

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Would help if people weren't firing hot guns at my local sites that close. But if the limit was 350 and semi auto consideration if that close I would be fine with that in the woods. 328 indoors.

 

'FireKnife'

 

Out here in New England USA our events run by national guidelines- 400 fps w/ .25s, no MED. 500 or 550 with SWS shooting .25s, 100' MED. Indoor fields run 400 fps w/ .2, semi only, no MED.

 

Works out great, I have my guns shooting just under 400 w/ .25s but use .30s for added accuracy/ ability to shoot through any brush

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Surely the best option would be just to take it as 'any situation where you can reach out and touch the player is a kill'?

 

Then add verbal commands, which is if someone asks you to surrender and you acknowledge them, not as in put your hands up, but you know they are there and they called you out you take it. Saves a lot of confusion. If a person turns and fires then you tag a note of who they are and report it, treating it as the same as not taking a hit (as essentially that is what they have done).

 

Just seems a damn sight easier.

 

'FireKnife'

My local field allows the use of rubber knives or other dull mock melee weapons for close range kills. There's nothing more humiliating than getting knifed in the back...

 

Bang rule should be scrapped, just leads to confusion and arguments. At one site i play at they use safety kills if you are in arms length of the other player.

We don't use "bang" at most of our local fields for that reason. People used to sit on top of a hill and yell "BANG!" down at players 50 feet away because they're within "sniper MEDs." We got rid of "bang" and got rid of that...

 

Out here in New England USA our events run by national guidelines- 400 fps w/ .25s, no MED. 500 or 550 with SWS shooting .25s, 100' MED. Indoor fields run 400 fps w/ .2, semi only, no MED.

 

Works out great, I have my guns shooting just under 400 w/ .25s but use .30s for added accuracy/ ability to shoot through any brush

Sounds about right. San Diego, CA (USA) fields are 425 w/ 0.20g for AEG/ GBBR with a 15 foot MED, 525 for semi-auto only snipers with 0.20g with 100 foot med, and no real regulations on sidearms (except the usual "DBADB" rule). The field from the video I posted a page back is 400 FPS w/ 0.20g for all weapons given the CQB nature of the field, and we have a 5' MED. It's 16 and up only, and it really makes a difference...

 

I play by one simple rule: If I were on the receiving end of this shot, how would I feel? I find myself switching to my sidearm at around 30' or so quite often...

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My local field allows the use of rubber knives or other dull mock melee weapons for close range kills. There's nothing more humiliating than getting knifed in the back...

 

But you would still take it right? It is all well and good that you can see it as humiliating, but it is a fine line between accepting defeat and coming up with some way to moan about it and not take, which can be a big issue here.

 

Out here in New England USA our events run by national guidelines- 400 fps w/ .25s, no MED. 500 or 550 with SWS shooting .25s, 100' MED. Indoor fields run 400 fps w/ .2, semi only, no MED.

 

See this is the one thing I find that makes UK and US play quite different. In the US I have been told that it is more about range and more open fields except when indoors where as in the UK we often tend for it to be up close, trying to see the 50m boundary as the limit of the ranges we engage at. Saying that in the UK we have more wooded areas from the look of things and even in the sparsest woods games get very up close. Plus a limit on some of the site areas, something the much larger US doesn't have seems to lend itself to this play too, thus we are used to up close and knife style kills.

 

'FireKnife'

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Oh we're into the CQB, it just hurts more. I should also add that "urban" areas, to stay in line with insurance regulations, must be semi only. Refs are posted there and people shooting full auto in the designated areas get booted.

 

Though indoor fields to have lower FPS restrictions. Also, I should add that there is a 3rd type of play popping up around here...max FPX restrictions, no semi only restrictions anywhere, full face and ear pro required.

 

Now I have not been to one of these fields as I detest the use of paintball masks. From what I've seen in local videos its all kids and a few vets who show up and roll over the groups of 8 children cowering behind the one telephone pole in the middle of a city...though with them popping up more and more I'm praying this isn't what everything becomes

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I meant more up close as in the difference between what the average US outdoor game would be like compared to the average outdoor UK game in a field / woods. But then CQB here as well is a bit different, but that is because we build rather closely, again something different. We do have urban too but unfortunately that can be quite limited. Unlike the US anything gun shaped is seen as evil and half the time even our own military is met with abuse as they return home (while I don't agree with how Afghanistan is going, it doesn't deserve the abuse to the general soldier that it gets) which leads to our hobby being dismissed quite a fair bit when we try to expand more and more :(.

 

As for that 3rd type of game, that is awful as a concept, sounds like a case of just playing hard and fast for the hell of it. We have places like that here in the UK, but they do get a lot of the players that personally I think shouldn't be allowed near a toy bow and arrow myself. As for rolling up on a game and just taking out the enemy, try a game or two up at the sites here, bless them, the site owners mates, tey try so hard, lose so much yet because they have the site owner on their team they miraculously win every game (I have many stories I could sahre, but that is for another thread).

 

And you know what, just for the hell of it, enjoy my *suitcase* video from 2008 that never got made, at the now closed Ultimate Airsoft site:

 

 

Nice place but had an awful local team that were all very much members of the 'Geardo with a £1k Gun' club.

 

'FireKnife'

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Perhaps we can move this discussion to a new thread? Moderators? Bueller?

 

But you would still take it right? It is all well and good that you can see it as humiliating, but it is a fine line between accepting defeat and coming up with some way to moan about it and not take, which can be a big issue here.

 

Oh, absolutely! I'd quietly raise my hand to accept the kill and maybe take a knee while waiting for the player to leave the area before doing anything, so as not to raise alarm from my teammates or anyone else in the area. Then I'd walk off and reconsider my life...

 

If he's good enough to sneak up on me and knife kill/ safety kill me, I owe him the courtesy of not being a douche and yelling out "HIT HIT HIT!!!" and alerting everyone else, ruining his effort. I hate when people do that.

 

The only exception is when it's a small game with friends of mine that I know personally. They all know better than to try and surrender me if I can recognize their voice or see them. I tend to start diving and rolling and slicing (with my little rubber knife) or quick-drawing my sidearm and stuff. Friends don't surrender friends haha... We usually play "capture" rules instead where you have to surrender a player, then come and touch their shoulder for them to be out. That means keeping your gun trained on them until you're within a few feet before lowing your guard. It makes for a fun game, but it's not something you do with new players or people you don't know. You can imagine the problems that arise.

 

See this is the one thing I find that makes UK and US play quite different. In the US I have been told that it is more about range and more open fields except when indoors where as in the UK we often tend for it to be up close, trying to see the 50m boundary as the limit of the ranges we engage at. Saying that in the UK we have more wooded areas from the look of things and even in the sparsest woods games get very up close. Plus a limit on some of the site areas, something the much larger US doesn't have seems to lend itself to this play too, thus we are used to up close and knife style kills.

 

'FireKnife'

 

Ham's right. Our limits vary from field to field, and you can see differences between CQB fields, open fields, and training fields in FPS limits, fire control (semi- vs. full auto), and protective gear required. It's very interesting, and frustrating too sometimes. I'm hoping that the 3rd game type that's growing stops soon. It's like live-action COD, and nobody wants that... I'm launching a team that focuses on team play and more MilSim aspects soon to help combat that mentality. It'll be open to almost anyone that shows good sportsmanship and a willingness to learn and work hard. Should be a fun time!

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And in an effort to steer this back on topic, here's my post from two pages ago with a video from a recent event. Sportsmanship is pretty decent here.

 

Airsoft at ITS in San Diego, CA. This qualifies as a Tactical Training Environment, and is not representative of our "average" day. That said, enjoy the video!

 

I'm the guy on Green wielding the saw for most of the video. I didn't breach the door with it since I was hit the moment I grabbed it.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFAWuuyoKL4&feature=g-user

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Soap: That's a great video. Any chance of using the facility again? If a multiday OP were hosted there I may be able to justify the flight down there :)

 

Unfortunately, it's unlikely they'll do a multi-day op, given that it's a government contracted training facility that isn't able to hold their contracts for airsoft. The next planned game is on or around February 10th, and I plan on running a gun cam or something for part of it so I can get a first person view for my YouTube channel.

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