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loki7491

Celcius CTW

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Okay, I think i love this gun...

 

The following review is based on a field test at today's skirmish at Longmoor FIBUA village organised by Charlie and the gang at Ambush Adventures.

 

 

How i ended up taking a "risk" on a CTW: (i will cover the risk part later)

 

I called Ratty at Badger Tac and explained i was in the market for a high end piece of kit with the emphasis being on a gun suitable for quality kills (range and accuracy) as opposed to spraying hi-caps and getting a quanity of kills.

 

He suggested the CTW... yes, i know he is one of the only CTW stockists in the UK, they are expensive guns and he has business to run... so he was bound to try and sell me one, right?

 

WRONG

 

We have been mates for years, even serving at the same unit in the Army - he recommended it because it is a great bit of kit and knew i would appreciate it. Given our history, i trust him implicity. Purely because of the level of trust,service and help and favours etc, Badger Tac are my sole supplier of kit. If Ratty cant get it, i will try on the forums here, but the no mess about warranty he offers gives me peace of mind that i would pay extra for. (Ratty, if you read this, dont even think about charging me for warranties!)

 

 

Today's field test

i have no intention of covering the box, manuals or presentation as my interest is in the gun's performance

 

Range and accuracy: The CTW has a nice range to it - I cannot sit here and write an exact figure as i was testing it out during a skirmish... if i got my tape measure out i would have been lit up! I estimate an effective range of about 60 meters. By effective range (and therefore accuracy) I mean i could hit a man size target or supress a window or door way with monotonous regularity with both semi and full auto bursts. I don't claim to be able to hit him "right between the eyes" with every shot, but a double tap or burst aimed at the chest usually did the trick. When the wind picked up i needed to aim off. I still had the distance, but naturally the accuracy deminished. I am told that once the guns beds in i will need to re-adjust everything and should have the same level of success out to approx 70 meters - I hope so!

 

 

Reliability: The CTW performed flawlessy all day, with the battery low voltage warning light only coming at 1700hrs after the last game was finished and i was clearing my mags. The battery was not fully charged in the first place as i had been messing about at home zeroing the optics and adjusting the hop yesterday, so a full day on an a partially charged battery is just dandy as far as i am concerned.

 

 

Functionality / ease of use: In terms of user friendliness in the field, it is very much the same as any AEG you may have owned in the past. Mag changes are simple and quick, although i did find that it was better to dpress the mag catch when putting a fresh mag on as this made it easier to seat it home ready for use. I only have one critisism of the magazines. On the odd occasion the metal mags did not feed to the last round. (two or three were in the mag and the gun dry fired - not the end of the world, quick mag change!) The stock is a little firm to slide up and down the buffer tube - i put this down to it being brand new and high quality. It is rock solid in every position of adjusment with no creaks, rattles or free play. A very good example of precision engineering.

 

The hop is adjusted via grub screw and allen key (supplied in the box) from within the mag housing. Mag needs to be removed in order to adjust so it can be a little tedious. The advantage being of course that there is virtually zero chance of the hop adjusting itself mid game. I adjusted my hop to maximum range, zeroed the optic, and aside from when it was windy, i was hitting my targets at the zero'd range (center dot of optic at aprrox 50 meters) and further out using the gradients in the sight. (i hit one particular long shot that commanded kind words from my team mates, but that was a couple of burst attempts and aiming off (up) accordingly to get range and spread)

 

I am shooting again tomorrow so i will try and get chrono results, confirmed ranges etc

 

 

Now to cover the "RISK" of buying a CTW.

I have read various opinions of them... The main argument seems to be reliability based on historical attemps. Now i agree that when Celcius tried to develop their own PTW it was not really a success - in fact i would go as far as saying the were pitiful. So they copied a proven model - SYSTEMA PTW. In the same way that from a mechanic's point of view, Skoda used to be dire. They were given the Volkswagen model and are now excellent cars.

 

I don't want to turn this into a PTW bashing, but there are few thing i think people should be aware of so they can make an informed decision if in the market for a training weapon.

 

PTW owners have "upgraded" their Systema with Celcius parts (and vice versa)

The Celcius does not need to be better than PTW. It does not even need to be as good as a PTW (in my opinion it is about 95 - 98% there at the moment, but i hear the next gen model will be even better!) In terms of cost, it only needs to be half as good as a PTW, which it far exceeds.

 

I do have a question for PTW owners though... If your £1200 gun is so perfect out of the box, why do certain members of this forum make a living (i believe it is now his sole job) out of modifying them in some cases before they have even been used?

 

CTW with the same upgrades and mods would still cost several hundred pounds less than the PTW. Apologies if this sounds anti PTW, it is not my intent - but a few who have looked down their nose at the very mention of Celcius need to get back in their box!

 

 

 

The world according to Billy Gumbrell:

CTW - cheaper than a PTW and practically just as good. IF it does suffer from issues i have the comfort of the Badger Tac / Celcius warranty (provided i have not used it as a grappling hook, tried underwater covert insertions or something else completely silly with it)

 

For less than a PTW I got a great gun, 4 extra mags, gucci sight, spare battery, charger and high grade ammo - and i still have enough money left over to take my dad to the pub!

 

I wait with baited breath for the arguments to commence!!!

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I happy for you for getting a good one. Most users around me have the motors go down on them in the first game. But here are a couple tips. The magazine usually has these followers that are the length of a little more than 2 bbs.

IMAG0377.jpg

Without that piece, after the mag is empty, one falls out and 2 stay in the mag.

For the sim bolt catch, you can place a but of shrink tubing on the catch, if its not already there. It usually helps the bolt catch do its job reliably:

IMAG0376.jpg

 

Beyond that, you should dust out the grip every 2500 rounds or so. These guns chew through their motor brushes in a matter of months so the dust builds up in the grip and chokes out the motor. Just be careful of pulling on the brush wires while sliding on and off the grip. It'll bend the brush hoods and cause the brushes to make loose contact with the commutator causing the rpm to drop and heat build up to rise.

 

My general opinion on these is that they arent worth the money. I can build regular aegs for the same price that will out last them, cost peanuts to fix comparatively and perform circles around them all year long. The only thing these do that I can't make a regular aeg do is have a slim grip and quick swap the cylinder with everything else being absolutely doable. But I can't blame you if you want a farrari just to have a farrari or an apple computer just to have an apple computer.

The tech and design were worth it before all these mosfet came out. But now that I can build a gun that feels the same to use for hundreds less, I just dont see the point in buying a proprietary, electronically controlled gun when I can't even program it.

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Thanks for the tips.

 

I agree I could buy and upgrade a regular AEG to do a similar job, but there would not be the warranty and that is a big thing for me.

 

I am ham fisted, sausage fingered idiot with limited dexterity... Do I want the hassle of a build or the cost of replacement parts? Not really.

 

If I can get a superb out of the box gun for a little more than an upgraded AEG AND have the comfort of a warranty I think it makes sense.

 

If I can get a systema for less than half price... Well that makes ALOT o sense!

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"PTW owners have "upgraded" their gun with Celcius parts? I know a lot of PTW owners, and I've yet to meet a single one thats fitted any Celcius parts!"

 

I know a lot of guys who claim to regularly perform certain sex acts with girlfriends or wives... i am yet to witness it first hand, but it doesn't mean it hasn't happened purely because i can't prove it!

 

"Some run CTW barrels, after they straighten them that is."

 

With regard to the straightening barrel thing, your statement holds no water. Finely machined to 6.00mm dead with most BBs rolling in at 5.95mm +/- a gnats whisker. If you can bend one and then straighten it such as it can be used to the same standard i will buy you a crate of beer. Further more - Motors, hops, ECUs and receivers (although i think the receiver was for a back-up / project rather than an upgrade) have all been bought by PTW owners. I didn't ask, but i think it is fair to assume they didn't buy the parts to fix the tumble dryer with.

 

If you don't have any comment of value perhaps you should leave the keyboard alone.

 

"sometimes it is better to let people think you are an idiot, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!"

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"PTW owners have "upgraded" their gun with Celcius parts? I know a lot of PTW owners, and I've yet to meet a single one thats fitted any Celcius parts!"

 

I know a lot of guys who claim to regularly perform certain sex acts with girlfriends or wives... i am yet to witness it first hand, but it doesn't mean it hasn't happened purely because i can't prove it!

 

Er, at what point did I say that it had nver happened. I merely expressed suprise as it's something i've not seen amongst the not inconsiderable number of PTW owners I know.

 

If you don't have any comment of value perhaps you should leave the keyboard alone.

 

"sometimes it is better to let people think you are an idiot, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!"

 

Couldn't have put it better myself. Why, pray tell, did you feel the urge to open your mouth then?

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Snappy comeback... YAWN

 

Admittedly you didn't say it had never happened - but the way it reads certainly implies you meant that.

My reply was somewhat tongue in cheek and sarcastic undoubtedly, but you cannot reasonably argue it served no value to the airsoft community as a whole. In fact the only section of the community it does not benefit are the PTW retailers. I am guessing you own a PTW (we already know many of your friends do). Why would they not be interested in replacement parts for a fraction of the cost, or in the case of the barrel (well, the straight ones...), hops and other parts have an upgrade?

 

As i stated in my OP - i am not anti PTW. I love them. Cutting edge technology and a step in the evolutionary cycle for our sport/hobby. I just think they are over priced. Evem ore so now the CTW is in competetion with them and sadly there is a certain eliteism that is prevailent among MANY, but not all PTW owners. (i have had the pleasure of a few kind folk letting have a go prior to collecting my Celcius) It is the snobby attitude of the "MANY but not all" that irritates me. From my experience the more elite and snobby ones are usually the armchair warriors with a bit of spare cash. They seem to think that spending the huge sum of money on what WAS arguably the best airsoft gun on the market gives them the right to look down their noses at other players / manufacturers. Their opinion is their own... i know this because far from driving a desk and playing warrior at the weekends, i have been involved in several armed conflicts to ensure they have the right to hold that opinion.

 

You cannot in good conscience claim that the latest CTWs are dogs, i freely admit their first attemps were terrible. There may be a bad one in "X" amount of crappy guns from the factory... but i can tell you of a few occasions where i witnessed new and used PTWs going all kinds of wrong. They are electro-mechanical beasts, and that is part of what happens.

 

I notice on the Sales / Trade threads that you are looking for some barrels for your PTW - If i chance across a bent CTW one I will get Meglomaniac to straighten it out and you can have it a gift from me!

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As yawn inducing as that much overused quote lol. You really do need to read what people write, not add your interpretation of what they have writen. Personally, I own a PTW, conventional AEGs, classic airsoft (JAC, FTC & Asahi) and a Polar* Fusion Engine powered SPR. All are flawed in some way or another (some more than others). Do I give a damn what someone else chooses to play with? No, why would I?

 

I've seen PTW owners commonly portrayed as "elitist pricks", then again, i've seen Celcius CTW owners portrayed as "pricks with a chip on their shoulder". Are there people that fit these descriptions?, damn right there is - but luckily, in the minority. The rest of us are just interested in using the kit - be it a PTW, CTW or an ACM clone of a TM.

 

As to the barrel, nah, no thanks. 6.00mm is too tight, prefer 6.04 with a modded hop-up system for best accuracy personally :lol:

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I fall into the "*beep* with chip on my shoulder" catagory for sure!

 

We are sailing off topic here, but to echo your sentiment. I couldn't give a rat's behind about who uses what. The gun is only a tool to facilitate a style of play... At longmoor i was with 2 guys with TM EBB. Some guy with a springer shottie got the drop on us and smoked all three of us before we knew WTF had happened (my right ear was stinging for ages!).

 

Passions have clearly been fired, the original point of the thread was to let people know there is a cost effective alternative to the PTW. The chip on my shoulder was developed purely by the PTW 1337 club who were sounding off prior to purchase... then when their guns were suffering simlar faults and they were fitting CTW parts as replacements and still sounding off about how superior the Systema was. I cannot stand elitists, bully boys or idiots with double standrds I felt the need to point out that some of these people are somewhat blinkered to the many benefits of Celcius being on the market. Far from being the *suitcasey* guns they used to be, they are real contenders for the title. If nothing else it will start an "arms race" between them and Systema. At best it will drive future improvements and bring down prices. The fact that so many parts are compatible also increases the number of places you can get after market parts... again, driving prices down

 

I have not written anything i cannot back up with fact - with the right permissions i could even give details of PTW owners and a copy of the invoice for the CTW parts they bought for their guns... not sure it is worth the hassle, but it is possible should it be needed.

 

As for the over used and cliched quote... i would like to piont out that the wheel and fire are still in use today - both are considerably older than the quote.

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I'm not so sure about the "arms race" because it's a case of one company copying anothers design, not neccessarily trying to outdo one another. An advance will be made, then the competitor will simply copy it (a case of trying to "keep up with the jones's?"). I can, however, see a "price race" happening. 2012 model PTW's will be going up a lot in price (how the hell can they justify that?!?) which could lead to some interesting questions over the pricing of the CTW. Will the prices of a Celcius go up to maintain the differential?

 

I'd be rather interested to know what CTW parts have been bought to fit to PTW's, purely due to not having seen any CTW parts grafted onto a PTW, so i'm just curious :)

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My mate who runs Badgertac has sold hops, ECU's, and a motor to replace Systema parts. He also sold a receiver, but i think this was more project or spares based as opposed to direct replacement on failure.

 

This i why i can confidently state that if i got the customers' permission i could produce invoices to prove the fact.

 

You are probably right in your "arms race" argument. As whole Celcius are blatantly keeping up with the Jones' but they do have their own improvements too. If they steal enough of each others technology we will end up with the "perfect gun" sooner or later.

 

With Systema next gen costing around the £1400 mark it will be all to easy for Celcius to jump on the profit making band wagon, and why wouldn't they? I just hope they don't and thus force Systema to re-evaluate the pricing policy. For the immediate future Systema will always be more expensive as they need to cover the cost of research and development whereas Celcius have "borrowed" much of the tech and their production costs are lower overall. Because people know this they would potentially alienate otherwise loyal customers and champions of the brand if they inexcusably add a huge price "just because they can."

 

There is always the chance that Celcius are "doing an Aston Martin" and selling at a loss until they have market coverage and then BOOM, up go the prices. Cynical? Yes. Wrong? Only time will tell, but again, i hope not.

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I know Ratty - have done for years - so if he says thats what happening, then I trust him on that. Personally, I would be amazed if Celcius didnt increase their prices. Not by as much as Systema, but certainly a substantial increase (probably blaming exchange rates and materials cost). Enough to increase their profit margins, but not so much that their loyal customers bugger off back to conventional AEGs.

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I have by eye using a glass surface been able to see curves and bends in CTW barrels and know of barrels that another local player using a machined surface and his shop straightened and used to good effect, I owned a CTW for a while and had to do extensive work on it while I owned it, it was a damned nightmare inside the gearbox on it, the example I had was so poorly machined I had to spend some time with files, emery paper, and metal dyes to even get the shells fit together anywhere close to square and not cause the axles to bind,

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how long ago?

 

i know the first few attempts were so poor i would have been better off going into a fire fight with a pea shooter, and i am pretty sure their barrels were brass on all previous attempts., but this new barrel is hardcore. Stainless Steel is stronger in tension, compression torque and shear than brass which is why i am sceptical it was one of the new barrels your buddy straightened... but i am a man of my word and the offer stands... if you have photos, or better yet a video diary (unlikely i know) of the job being done on the latest stainless barrel i will honour my wager and buy you a crate of beer!

 

I have seen a video of a guy standing on two barrels acting as a bridge across some chairs - There was only slight deflection and it is entirely possible that the natural elasticity in the metal protected it from permanent deformation - i don't know if they were fit to fire after that as the video doesn't show that aspect, but i would like to think they don't do that in the factory before shipping!

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My mine was a 2010 MX-2, the other barrels were also MX-2s but of unknown year of manufacture. I don't have video proof but I did the see the barrel before and after it was straightened it was one of the newer steel barrels, I'm assuming he used some form a press and jig and possibly heat as well. There have been others who have commented on finding CTWs with curved barrels.

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i can't find anything in the UK other than on the older stuff... do you have links to it on US forums or similar...

 

I have made a bold statement and thrown down the gauntlet in pubic. Humble pie tastes like ######, but if i owe, i owe. That said i don't like getting played either so i want to be certain!

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a couple comments about prices. celcius is going up in price with systema due to materials cost. notice the mx2-r in my lap? that is the new cheaper model going for around 520usd iirc. the standard mx2 will be in the 700 to 800 range now. the mx3 will probably replace both, no price on that yet.

 

the increase in price is coming from the chinese hoarding materials and the tsunami that hit japan. at least thats what zshot is telling me.

just about every systema product is going up 40% now. its rediculous.

 

about the barrels though. the celcius reformation 2 barrels started off rough with batches looking like wannabe bannanas. i had a box full of them, it was horrible. probably still have a couple laying around.

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Not required of late I only drink my home brew and local craft brewers, it is fun exchanging ideas, I do have hope for the emergent AEG technologies and do hope to see Systema knocked off the high horse they ride on.

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the increase in price is coming from the chinese hoarding materials and the tsunami that hit japan. at least thats what zshot is telling me.

just about every systema product is going up 40% now. its rediculous.

 

Zshot are pulling a fast one there. If materials cost and the tsunami are a substantial factor in the increase in pricing, then the question has go be asked - why havent other Japanese consumer goods gone up by the same amount?.

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I have a feeling some of that is to compensate for the increased cost of rare earth metals (used in PCBs and Electric Motors) as china has begun to ramp up its own industry there has been an increase in demand.

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very interesting posts gents. I am looking at getting a Celcius at the moment and am reading these threads with interest. I would love a Systema but the price when couples with new magazines, battery and extras is just too much at the moment. Celcius seem a decent halfway point.

 

Reading between the lines of everything I have read so far it seems to be that the new Celcius is good and worth the money but the PTW is still better. Its then a choice of how much I want to spend to get the extra 5%. Im not a tech minded person at all and I am amazed that some people can build up a regular AEG as good as TW performance, I have no chance of that though.

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Ah reminds me of my old bar stool days. I have 2008 M4A1 and after reading some, I've decided to use only the stock Mosfet with a piece of bread board and tact switch. No active braking, just FA, with the selector for safe. I'll report on long term review.

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