Ammo Limits

[uscmCorps]

I grew up in the inline-gas era (JAC, MGC, Etc). It wasn't until my late teens did TM introduce the FAMAS AEG with hicaps, and shortly thereafter AR15 type AEGs. It was surprising how fast everyone in HK switched to AEGs, but the hicaps attained great popularity as everyone was shooting at 600+ fps and the rules were the unspoken but commonly assumed you call yourself out when you couldn't take the pain anymore. Hosing your opposition was the norm. Camping didn't work so well for players since you were generally playing in dense tropical jungles and could be easily flanked. Tactics and stealth still had a critical role. That said, I knew of guys that would carry no less than 25-30 AR15 HICAPS into a game, I kid you not, and still almost use them all.

 

It wasn't until I moved out to the US in the early 90s for college and started attending big op milsim events 7-8 years ago that I saw a different way to play the game. One hit = one kill, and absolutely no hicaps for riflemen. It was brilliant. I immediately saw from all levels of players a lot less BB hosing, less camping and generally more enjoyable game play. But it was only fun as long as it was an enforced rule for everyone. No exceptions. Which for the big ops I attend always are.

 

Nowadays when our group goes to local skirmish sites we usually just book a private group rate and play by ourselves for a slightly higher fee. While it may cost more and games rarely get bigger than 10 on 10, they're still fun because we all use midcaps and everyone calls their hits. Between games, when walking back to the safe zone to reload, I look over at the next field with all the walk-ons, and I see a huge line of players at the rear most firing line on either side, just standing back there lobbing rounds out of their hicaps. What fun is that?

 

Regarding real cap / low cap mags (i.e. 30 rounders), that can be immensely fun ... so long as everyone is using that. It forces players to conserve ammo, only shoot when they really have to, and move around a whole lot more.

 

Thumbs up for real caps and midcaps!!!

[adadqgg]

RUBBER M9/10s ? I'd love to score knive kills but those trainer props are kinda hard to find, . Any good source?

 

I found some 20rmb rubber daggers in a surplus shop during my last business trip in Mainland China, no idea what the actual model was and i was unable to find a shelth for it.

I thought those are everywhere, like http://www.airsoftpark.com/product_info.php?products_id=3036

 

What I really wanted is a rubber AK bayonet.

 

A Japanese model company ARII used to make them, but they were discontinued for whatever reason(possibly NATO/America Bias, like most of Japan would have).

 

I have cold steel training knives; but the problem is that they never made a bayonet model.

[ODST_NE0]

From experience, it is usually better to use the Midcaps only (except LMG) limit for 2 reasons.

1. Much easier to enforce

2. Even with limited Hicaps, you will still have people spraying, bc they don't need to reload.

 

Midcaps IMO have several advantages

1. Good balance of holding enough rounds, but not too many.

2. You get to reload, which is cool. You can't pretend to Costa or Haley if you never reload your gun, jk

3. Simpler design=More robust. The biggest thing that pushed me away form Hicaps was having a Hicap fail on me, which meant I lost a lot of ammo bc the magazine broke. Not something that I want to deal with in a high stress situation.

4. Near noiseless

 

There are many arguments for the advantage Midcaps, and many players feel advantage vs disadvantage, Midcaps are the better deal for the game then Hicaps, which is a common 'opinion' shared amongst players. I am not saying one is better the on the others, but each one changes how the game feels and plays. The style that I like to play, leads me to play with Midcaps

[Danke]

All hail the gas in mag guns. Real cap is the only way to roll.

[lupin2000]

I run with "low-cap" and mid-caps. When I first started I ran all high-caps. I personally see it like this. If its milsim, go low and mids only (excluding lmgs). If it's not milsim, why do you care if someone would rather run with a bunch of high-caps and have fun? I'm having just as much fun with my mid-caps as the guy next to me running all "low-caps" and the next guy over running highs.

[uscmCorps]

The problem isn't so much the hicaps, it has more to do with the type of play style it often accompanies. If someone who uses hicaps were able to refrain from becoming a BB hose, then it wouldn't bother me. But more often than not I see people just unleash a never ending flow of BBs onto the opposition. To me, being on the receiving end of that barrage, it simply isn't fun. If you enjoy that then more power to you. I'm not saying that everyone who uses hicaps are guilty of this, but when you go to a game in which hicaps are not allowed, the BB hosing certainly is less noticeable.

[FireKnife]

Having run games with everything from real caps / gas mags to box mags and back i can say that personally i find hi-caps an annoyance to those that prefer the option of stealth, however if you are the bloke laying down the cover while the rest advance (i think in the real world they are called 'support gunners' ) and don't mind the noise or the cost then they are not an issue.

 

Really it all boils down to how you play and how 'real' you want the experience. If you want it to be real then run lo and real caps, if you prefer to carry the most ammo in the least amount of mags then go for hi-caps. If you are insane and like to get right up close then take a pistol with 21rd mags

 

'FireKnife'

[Jon L]

As a of high cap user myself, I would like to propose a little challenge to those of you that are so annoyed by high caps. At your next game switch out your normal mids or lows and gab yourself two high caps. So you end up with one in the gun and one in your rig. Then play a game or two, and see how quietly you can move. You will hopefully be plesently suprised that you can move just as steathly as when using other mags. Thus any point that highs are too noisey should not reside with the mag but with the player.

 

As to players spraying, I generally find that they are the newer players who are just enjoying the fact that they can see a white beam erupting from the end of their guns.

[ODST_NE0]

As a of high cap user myself, I would like to propose a little challenge to those of you that are so annoyed by high caps. At your next game switch out your normal mids or lows and gab yourself two high caps. So you end up with one in the gun and one in your rig. Then play a game or two, and see how quietly you can move. You will hopefully be plesently suprised that you can move just as steathly as when using other mags. Thus any point that highs are too noisey should not reside with the mag but with the player.

 

As to players spraying, I generally find that they are the newer players who are just enjoying the fact that they can see a white beam erupting from the end of their guns.

 

I do have to agree with this, as it is usually newer players that are guilty of this, or individuals that haven't learn that they can lay off the trigger a bit. I admit that sometime I can lay on the trigger too much, but did some training to learn better trigger control and became much better. Still like sending down firepower down range, but do so in a more efficient manner, or I just run my M60 and do crazy with that +20lbs of goodness...or until my motor overheats or something breaks, haha

 

I believe that players that argue that the mids/low/real caps are quiter, it is more of small perk to the whole thing, rather then the deal breaker. Honestly, I will carry one hicap with me (on games that allow Hicaps) incase I were to tear through all my Midcaps, I would still have something. In which case, it makes me re-think my current game plane, bc I am on my emergency reservoir. The noise from one isnt really going effect ones stealth terribly, unless you are running, which in most cases means you don't need stealth at that time.

[adadqgg]

Personally, I find that the only reason I use hi-cap(just one for each rifle type) was because the midcaps jamming(MAG, STAR, VFC...all jammed on me even when I lube and clean the bb tracts right before a game) became too annoying(*sees enemy squad walking by without noticing me* *stand up and yell "FOR MOTHERLAND ZA RODINA URRAH!!!"* *pull trigger* *gearbox start pumping air at 20-ish times per second but no bb comeout after first round*).

[uscmCorps]

adadqgg, if this is happening to all your midcaps regardless of brand, then it's possible it's something you're doing to the mags. Jammed Midcaps is usually a result of one (or a combo) of the following: bad quality BBs, shoving too many rounds into the mag, dirt I the mag, or what is usually the culprit ... Leaving your mags partially loaded (and especially when they're fully loaded). Leaving midcaps and any other variation of spring fed AEG mags loaded for extended periods (like a few weeks) is the most often common reasoning for jammed mags. I try not to leave mags loaded for more than a few days.

 

[FireKnife]

Why would you leave mags loaded for longer than a day or weekend

 

First thing i do with my mags is unload them when i have finished.

 

As for hi-caps i just find it funny when you get the combination of new airsofter and not knowing how they work, makes it easier for me, 'no you have to wind the wh...., hit damn it'

 

'FireKnife'

[adadqgg]

I used Goldenball and Madbull .28g; both jammed.

 

They started jamming out of the box when loaded with about 80 rounds(speed loaded plunger pushed 15-16 times).

 

When I get home I am going to stuff 20 bb behind the springs and/or stretch them out more.

[Hobby Airsoft]

Goldenball, as far as I know, still come from BB-King, which as we all know are not fantastic. They have their good batches, but I have seen a lot of bad batches in Ireland at least.

 

What grade Madbull were you using? They have about 3 different grades - their premium ones are great, but the others are so-so.

 

Normally mag trouble = BB trouble, especially across the various brands of mag

[WhiteHawksan]

try it with 40 first, see if it'll feed and fire all 40.

 

Failing that, try Maruzen Super Grand Master BB's. they're expensive but very good, if they still jam, the problem is with mags

[adadqgg]

Goldenball, as far as I know, still come from BB-King, which as we all know are not fantastic. They have their good batches, but I have seen a lot of bad batches in Ireland at least.

 

What grade Madbull were you using? They have about 3 different grades - their premium ones are great, but the others are so-so.

This is probably the problem.

 

Because I borrowed some KSC .25g 'perfects' and they fed without problem.

 

I think I got madbull .28g in white packaging(which I assume to be the cheap version) and some .30g in more colorful packaging(which I assumed to be the better version). I have not used .30g yet because those are for tuning R-hop for SVD.

 

 

try it with 40 first, see if it'll feed and fire all 40.

 

Failing that, try Maruzen Super Grand Master BB's. they're expensive but very good, if they still jam, the problem is with mags

I tried that with around 50 and it still jammed half way through a 5 round burst.

 

 

 

 

Looks like I need to stop using cheap krap bb.

[uscmCorps]

I personally use Excel (0.2, 0.23, and 0.25g) BBs for many years now with great consistency. In more recent years I have also found the following to work well: Biovals 0.27g clear BBs, G&G 0.25 bio BBs, and KSC Perfect 0.3g BBs. I'm hesitant to try anything else. The KSC Perfect 0.3g BBs are my current favorite. You may also want to open up your mags and give the internals a clean.

[WhiteHawksan]

On mid-caps I've often found that mags that consistently refuse to feed may have 'burring' inside the feed tube, I take the mag apart and visually inspect if possible, if not I run a stiff plastic pipe cleaner down. It's quite good at dislodging any burrs inside the feed tube.

[adadqgg]

I personally use Excel (0.2, 0.23, and 0.25g) BBs for many years now with great consistency. In more recent years I have also found the following to work well: Biovals 0.27g clear BBs, G&G 0.25 bio BBs, and KSC Perfect 0.3g BBs. I'm hesitant to try anything else. The KSC Perfect 0.3g BBs are my current favorite. You may also want to open up your mags and give the internals a clean.

The problem with mag midcaps is that they are just two pieces stuck together; nothing to take apart because the only thing that comes out is the follower and spring.

 

On mid-caps I've often found that mags that consistently refuse to feed may have 'burring' inside the feed tube, I take the mag apart and visually inspect if possible, if not I run a stiff plastic pipe cleaner down. It's quite good at dislodging any burrs inside the feed tube.

I will try that sometime.

 

As for VFC mag that I was able to take apart; there was no visible imperfection in the bb tracks.

Seems like VFC's bb track has problem with where it funnels the doublestacked bb into single.

[Roman!]

I think USCMcorps has it right. Hicaps are not the problem. The style of play they enable is the problem. I think in the future you are going to start seeing more and more gas gun only (as in gas in mag only) ops. They may not take off at first, but my guess is that not only will they be offered, but over time a small niche market will develop for them. The reason being that the tactics are much closer to simulating real life tactics than even mid cap limited games. However, I doubt gas gun only games will ever come close to approaching the numbers playing mainstream AEG games. AEGs will always be the mainstream, but gas guns could find that niche as an alternative to the "plastic tsunami" approach many long time players have endured and probably grown tired of. Time will tell.

 

Personally, I feel limited ammo is not as big an issue as limits to mag capacity are. I have played in limited ammo games and policing the ammo was a maddening expierence. The people running the OPs could not get complete control over people sneaking in their own extra BBs. Worse, when one side or the other took an objective out of turn (objectives dispensing additional ammo) then suddenly one side had a huge unearned advantage that the organizers could not address. Cheating worked! For these reasons I now look upon limited ammo games as a "work in progress" that I do not attend.

 

Instead of ammo limits I now prefer to play in midcap only games. I hope that these not only catch on, but become the norm. Perhaps one day games can be organized around low cap mags, but I know cheating with mid caps would be rampant there. That is why the potential of "gas in mag" gas guns only games interest me.

 

Just to be clear, I am not disparaging anyone who prefers to play with hicaps, limited ammo, or any other type of airsoft game. I am a firm believer in options for everyone. There is plenty of room for everyone's game playing style in this hobby.

[Stuey]

The problem with mag midcaps is that they are just two pieces stuck together; nothing to take apart because the only thing that comes out is the follower and spring.

 

I will try that sometime.

 

As for VFC mag that I was able to take apart; there was no visible imperfection in the bb tracks.

Seems like VFC's bb track has problem with where it funnels the doublestacked bb into single.

 

If you can't get the halves apart you could try cleaning the BB track in a similar way to how you clean your gun barrel.

 

Also I would try to avoid lubing your mags, they should run fine without lubrication. All lube does is attract dirt and dust which sticks to it and builds up, which will cause your mags to jam.

[adadqgg]

If you can't get the halves apart you could try cleaning the BB track in a similar way to how you clean your gun barrel.

 

Also I would try to avoid lubing your mags, they should run fine without lubrication. All lube does is attract dirt and dust which sticks to it and builds up, which will cause your mags to jam.

After a bit of reading it would appear that I got 3 bags of goldenball from a famously bad batch.

[Isamu]

To be honest, I use both when I play, mainly midcaps and keep a hicap close to my hand in case i run out of midcaps in delicate situations so I agree with USMC, the problem is the style of play of the player him/herself enjoys or the field own rules, this is, if the site doesnt aprove looooooong bursts, problem should be solved. For example, most of the sites I play in, are mostly single fire only or short (3 rounds) bursts for riflemen and slightly longuer bursts for support weapons.

 

No hosing and everyone can use their favourite mag type.

 

Now, ammo limitations? i dont think its the best for a fun sunday, we all love shooting at each other so why not let people do it? and if someone wants a challenge and limit his own ammo, more power to him and my deepest respects, no kidding.

 

But, if the game is more serious or more hardcore milsim-ish, then yes, limiting the ammo is a great way to improve the experience

 

long story short, everything has its moment and reason, we just need to be aware of it

[FireKnife]

So really we have come to the same conclusion of many of these 'ammo limit' threads:

 

On a regular Sunday blast rock up with what you think is a good amount of ammo but on a special event or milsim day then impose an ammo limit for people to follow

 

Makes sense to me though.

 

But i know i am one of those people that will never break an ammo limit, never have enough on me.

 

'FireKnife'

[fuzzhead]

i do hope more sites put restrictions on ammo not milsim low restrictions just as im fed up of aiming for the 1 shot kill to have my peice of cover hosed by a guy with an m4 and boxmag or highcap hero