Ammo Limits

[FireKnife]

You will always get that, if it is really bad then switch sites

 

However you will always get those that don't bother with limits and will take as much ammo as they can etc.

 

'FireKnife'

[Simba4793]

Most of the time I use next to NO ammo. Ive gon alot of games with just knifeing people.

So I definatly think an ammo limit is a good idea.

its easy to win when you just willy nilly shoot 2,000 rounds into the enemey spawn. Its also why I hate highcaps....

[Shardik]

I usually take a slingshot. It is all I need to counter those knifeing ninja's.

[Simba4793]

I usually take a slingshot. It is all I need to counter those knifeing ninja's.

haha. The secret to getting knife kill is just hide in plain sight.

[DWZippy]

I'd be pretty much in support of an ammo limit for everything apart from support guns [where it's not uncommon to chow through 5k plus rounds a game if you're rocking the trigger]

 

But at the end of the day, if they want to spew 1000 rounds at me behind some cover, I'll suck it up and wait for them to reload. Depending on where you play, you need different amounts of ammo. At the mall I'll use 500-600 rounds during the day, whereas at a woodland site like Xsite Lane End I can easily plow 3000 rounds through mids/flashes because it's a "target rich" environment. 

[Lone_Bullet]

Those 'gas in mag' games already exist here.

Well, kinda. They're usually called ' pistols 'n' shotty only ' games.

And yes, they rule! I think FireKnife will agree.

 

P'n'S games are CQB only as far as I know. Thus here, they're single shot only . A whole change of game mechanics.

Want a good gas in mag weapon? Get a 1911 or Glock 17 and transform it into a carbine with a HERA kit.

 

It's a good way to get to know the better airsoft games since, well, who has a collection of 6-12 GBB mags for their GBB or GBBr ?

They're not only expensive, but heavy as well. And people new to airsoft get deeper into the game because they're forced to think before they shoot.

Those games can, however, get stuck fast if you have a lot of new people not willing to use rush tactics or simply refuse to get out their safe little camping corner.

 

But other than that, Win-Win ^^

[ninja master of coffee]

I am totally pro-ammo limits, makes people play more intelligently and adds a degree of extra pressure to games. Games I go to employ rules for different ammo limits for different weapons, so an assault rifle or smg will be limited to 600 rounds in magazins, a sniper can carry 150 in magazines and a support gunner (actually has to be a recognizable LMG or MMG, not an mp5 with a drum mag) can carry 3000, since most people can't be bothered to hump and RPK or SAW around all day, it does actually mean you machine gunner becomes your basis of firepower. People play way smarter and games bog down so much less. I'd say along with having medic rules and actual plotted out scenarios it's why I can hardly be bothered with normal walk on skirmishes.

[3vi1-D4n]

I am totally pro-ammo limits, makes people play more intelligently and adds a degree of extra pressure to games. Games I go to employ rules for different ammo limits for different weapons, so an assault rifle or smg will be limited to 600 rounds in magazins, a sniper can carry 150 in magazines and a support gunner (actually has to be a recognizable LMG or MMG, not an mp5 with a drum mag) can carry 3000, since most people can't be bothered to hump and RPK or SAW around all day, it does actually mean you machine gunner becomes your basis of firepower. People play way smarter and games bog down so much less. I'd say along with having medic rules and actual plotted out scenarios it's why I can hardly be bothered with normal walk on skirmishes.

 

That is observed here also.  People do tend to play smarter if there isn't thousands or rounds on their assault rifles at their disposal, it becomes more team based and more pre-game prep is often conducted in order to play a scenario.

 

However this sort of game is no longer common here.  The reason is that the meritocratic society of yesterday is now replaced with a disposable Gen-Y society, where people have the power and resources at their finger tips and instant fun is the name of the game.  Its individualism concentrated, where ego is the currency for "leadership", and everyone else is just an NPC.  For some urban centres, traditionally bushball clubs have dwindled in size and the CQB/speedball clubs are growing because of this social pressure.

 

The other down side is that, to have good teams play good scenarios, you need good game planners and leaders with operations experience, who understands Trust tactics, mission analysis and combat estimates, and aren't just going to throw in a scripted scenario where two sides throw BBs at each other in a field full of barricades.   Finding those planners and leaders are not easy, certainly where I am.

 

And ammo limits is really only a small part of the game design process...

 

 

So for many of the old timers, it takes too much effort and human resource now to organise well designed scenario games, hence many have left the sport, leaving the new insta-fun generation to their own fun-on-tap, hicap spammage.

 

In the past, I have seen a few clubs start off with real caps and well planned scenarios, but slowly went to mid caps and then hicaps, and over time the commitment level of the players dwindled so there was no consistent players to run good scenario games.  So naturally the games became a semi-themed shootout.  

 

From where I stand in the country I am in, I believe thats the way of society here today and that fighting this social pressure is somewhat a waste of effort, even though the natural course of progression is clearly the *wrong* thing to do.

[ninja master of coffee]

Well, I think a smarter community has to be built, not saying that's an easy job but I believe it can be done. For a start, better players tend to get bored with regular walk on games with very little actual direction and coordination, if you can get like minded people together and start running some properly organized games with good scenarios, some kind of command structure with proper communications then you should find that people gravitate to those games, well, not all but the right kind of people... At our local site we have exactly what you describe, properly planned games, multiple branches for the story to go down based on various possible outcomes and people in leadership positions who actually have an idea what they're doing, those people have comms to talk to other squad leaders and the team commander. Results in a far more mobile and coordinated game. As you say, ammo limits are just a part of it.

[3vi1-D4n]

I do wish it was possible but its looking increasingly unlikely here.

 

The country I am in has a Army (Full time and Reserve) to Total Population ratio of 0.1% and declining, due to downsizing of the defense forces, as opposed to UK which is 0.4% and US which is 0.36%.

 

This pretty much means that there will be a distinct lack of current and past, operationally experienced commanders, planners and team leaders within the population whom may dabble in airsoft, or may be able impart at least some experience to airsofters in general.

[ninja master of coffee]

Well... I have never been in the military and I generally run one of the squads when I go to my local site, you don't need training so much as some smarts, good communication skills and experience with airsoft. I can run a squad and communicate with other squad leaders just fine without any actual military training. True a couple of the player marshals who run some of the squads are ex-military but not all, I can see having that expertise is useful but it isn't essential, you just need people who are good at coming up with a plan on the fly, explaining that to people and implementing it. I suppose the main advantages I have are that I've been airsofting a long time and I communicate well with people, I also can generally judge a tactical situation pretty well and think from the opposition's PoV. Squad commanders just need to be competent and confident really, military experience can help with that but it's not the be all and end all.

[harborne blue]

Although there's nothing quite as satisfying as twatting a hi-cap spammer when running lo-caps and semi-only, we've started to avoid sites where this is the norm. I prefer woodland in the summer but have ended up playing more and more CQB because 3-400 rounds per game really 'sorts the men from the boys' IMHO.

 

A barely trained monkey can sit in cover, blatting at the bushes all day till they hit something. To actually work up to an objective takes patience and nerve and is far more of an adrenalin rush than just spray n' pray. However I guess that's why I find MOH and COD min crushingly boring because it's all about the kill count and not about actually using your brains and your balls to try and achieve something.

 

<oldtimer out>

[FireKnife]

Personally as a person that enjoys the odd game of limits and making players think less about 'oh well I have another 1000 in the next one' and more about 'well if I move there to there and cover each step with a shot or two from my friend I might make it' I like it when places go that extra mile to do so.

 

But as above many places just rock out with hi-caps and even in some cases large mid-caps as it often becomes the side with more ammo that wins. This is all well and good if you have the ammo to do so but if you don't it can get boring fast.

 

Perhaps with the less club focused gaming and the more typical game and go you see around here now we have ended up with limitless ammo games just being the way to go.

 

Though if I was in an area with a bit more support for the hobby (it is a limited population area, about a tenth that of a major UK city including suburbs) I would see about getting a group together, renting a site and running heavily limited games that force tactics over firepower.

 

But for many this new style of play works, just it can feel that it is alienating those that want to try different things. I am sure many GBBR users out there would like a game that pits them against other GBBR users only and see how that works?

 

As for ammo limits at a regular game, well that is really up to the site and the game they want to play. Just you need to make sure everyone is following the rules and that is hard enough.

 

'FireKnife'

[Binngoo]

I've played a couple of gas a spring days at The Mall and you end up with a very different style of play and different tactics to the normal games and I personally don't mind hi-caps in CQB if people keep it sensible, its just sitting there emptying mag after mag into a doorway as area denial I don't like. With woodland I understand hi-caps just because you can waste a lot of ammo just trying to compensate for wind. Mid-low caps change the way the game is played but I don't think sites should enforce blanket bans on hi-caps, but doing special games for mid/lowcaps only i do support

[ninja master of coffee]

It's not so much banning hi-caps as having ammo in mag limits, I opt for mid caps because I find hi-caps annoying as much as anything else. I don't bother with hi-caps even at regular walk on games, I haven't found a major issue with running out of ammo because I actually make sure I can hit what I'm shooting at. Binngoo, if you're finding you're missing due to cross wind I can suggest a couple of things, use heavier ammo (say, .25g instead of .20g) and get closer to the target. I generally try and engage as close as possible for a couple of reasons, first you're just more likely to hit first time, second, it has more of a shock effect on the opposition, having some dude pop up 40 meters our and spray some inaccurate fire in their general direction is annoying but not very dangerous, having some dude pop out 15 meters away and drop two or three of their guys before they realize what's up can really mess with their confidence. I mostly play woodland, spray and pray is rare. Learning to use less ammo I think also helps make you a better player since you get used to making the shots count.

[sniperelite7]

Ammo limits? Meh. The wrong answer to a problem thats plagued airsoft since...well it became airsoft. Which is how do we maximize realism while being hamstringed using 6mm balls? Well...full auto does produce a gameplay thats similar in terms of game effectiveness to the real deal, an example, it may take 100bb's to be equivalent to 2 rounds of ammo given a certain in game situation. Which is where I think the disparity occurs. An actual military unit gets around the danger of small arms by using team tactics, your squad gunner or buddies, to suppress a threat while you move to a better position to kill said threat.

 

In airsoft, lets say, within 90 meters a full auto high cap gun is around the same effectiveness as a real rifle, almost. Your punching through bushes, suppressing people at range, getting hits at range, and in general being a nuisance. Since airsofters are a bunch of individualistic little girls, there is none of that military training and coordination. Thus people are not helping each other. We don't get concerted efforts to suppress "those guys" while we maneuver.  Hell most games don't even have a command element..so what is the result of everyone being a chief with no indians? Stalemates and long distance hosing. Not tacticool. not fun.

 

So what do we do? Well...we cut the balls off of airsoft's potential realism by enforcing an ammo limit. Yaaaaaaaaaaaaay   So now...well, within 90 meters that big bad aeg isn't so scary. So we can do things that would otherwise be flat out stupid in real life. Like closing the engagement distance without suppression fire from your mates. Or using a bush as hard "cover", or meandering about at 70+ meters like you haven't a care in the world. Sooo the result? Everyone gets up nice and close so they won't waste balls, and the best part is. Your own individual ability is more important here. Snapshooting, fast reloadin, all that hoo yah good hah-shpeed stuff. But thats really all we want to do right? Be like Chris Costa...that boring team tactics stuff..is..well boring, he never communicates with his team in his art of the dynamic sammich videos does he?..Does he even HAVE a team?   

 

and we get to do it all under the false flag of realism. GAH-ZING!!!! 

 

Yeeeah I really did have a crappy day at work didn't I?

[3vi1-D4n]

LOL, funny that  I agree.

 

Thats why along with real capapacity you also up the FPS to 500fps for assault rifles.  --> Bush penetration out to 60m, harrasment to 100m

 

 

One of the side effect with ammo limits is that people use runs more effectively, and it does happen, though it is only a small part of the big picture.

 

The trick is to craft out a set of game rules and scenarios which makes people think about game strategies, analysis of mission and objectives. and on the field about the use of ground and positioning of certain weapon systems to gain a tactical advantage, and the requirement of teamwork and pre-battle prep, all in order to create a total immersion of gaming experience in the game.

 

--------------------------------------

 

Though it sounds good on paper, it doesn't work out if all that todays players are out for is just a shootout. So many milsim game organisers compromise by making games "cool" rather than of substance; have lots of toys, vehicles, lots of make belief units/Spec Ops etc,.. etc. 

 

After all people want to feel like they are in a cool epic battle  Appreciation of the planning and prep isn't really necessary for the fun    Afterall its the game planners headache,. we paid the money!

 

[hawaiianjuggernaut]

I think it really depends on what gameplay style youre striving for. 

 

It is inevitable that open fields are going to have people spraying with hicaps/boxmags, and there is nothing you can do about that. That is their play style and you cannot do anything about that.

 

If you want strict milsim, organize it with your friends. Their integrity will make sure you play with whatever standards you are striving to achieve. 
I dont mind playing in multiple styles. 10x 75rd Midcaps and my polarstar is my main loadout, but I can do with less ammo. 

1 Flashmag and 2 midcaps is also perfectly fine with how I play. 

 

Our field is slower paced, more relaxed (as per the attitude of Hawaii in general) so that is how most peoples game play is; box mags, flash mags and hicaps and occasional 150-200ft spray and prays. 

 

Mandating ammo caps would discourage newer players who dont exactly have the means and money to purchase a chest rig to fit all the midcaps that would be necessary to play under "strict milsim" scenarios. 

[FireKnife]

See as good as the idea of local and private games can be around here it is hard to do as you will either be trespassing if you do it without permission which is a no or if you do have permission then some red tape or insurance would be involved which does suck. This means that often alternative or specialist games only often occur as big yearly events or at a set site, which not all can get to.

 

Add in that often they cater to the biggest niche market which in this country is usually WW2 or Milsim games, this means that those that want games with restrictions like say 'gas and spring' (properly enforced that is) or real / mid-caps only have to either hope their local site does such an event or they can get their local site to do such an event as the hassle of private games, especially if someone using their right to roam the countryside comes across you is not really worth it.

 

Ammo limits are not the best of ideas in a regular Sunday game but for some it would be nice if other parts of airsoft could be more catered for. I know some people will be thinking 'wait what?' but those people will be in an area where they have all the sites they want, especially around London, Liverpool / Manchester and the Scottish Central Belt.

 

'FireKnife'

[Shardik]

I run 3x flash mags and 3x pistol mags fir a standard walk on day. To be honest I rarely go through the lot before lunch. And this is at a site which favours high rates of fire and lots of hicaps.

 

Ammo limits would suit me just fine. Back in the day I only ran a half a dozen mp5 mid caps. My point is that I think most people would simply adapt their kit for each type of game restrictions.

 

Personally though, ammo limits should depend on the amount of hire guns a site gets. The hire boys at my local seem to go through all their BBs and lipos an hour before lunch break. Try giving these guys an ammo limit

[FireKnife]

To be honest when you have to cater for everyone on a typical game day you end up with the only rules being those of safety, anything else is really 'You bring it, you use it'.

 

I do recall when a site near me back when I was down South had a day where it was limited to one hi-cap or five mid-caps, everything non-AEG was unlimited. This sounds fine, nice and easy but then out comes a rather irate guy with a MP5 saying and I quote '*fruitcage* that, the guys with an AK get 600 rounds, all I get is 200'. Now most intelligent people would just deal with it and move on but no this is responded with 'well you should get a better gun then eh?' from some other players sporting AKs and M4s. It just escalated and in the end up got about ten people arguing over and over again about it.

 

In the end we just moved to our bases, left the argument going and started the game on the rest of the site (everyone had eye pro on in the game zone, even those arguing). Only when the whistle went did they bother to move.

 

Now that was a very simple ammo limit, but all it took was one person to make an excessive comment by shouting and then another few to badly retort and it all kicked off. The rest of us just got on with it, no matter what gun we had and played the game, yet for some they felt this ruined the game and I could see why. When you have to appeal to everyone you have to make everything to the most players and in the case of this ammo limit it just led to too many issues sadly. It could also have been explained better as it was sprung on us a bit (well that and mentioned on the two game days before then but if you weren't there you might not have known) but even then it didn't help.

 

'FireKnife'

[hawaiianjuggernaut]

To be honest when you have to cater for everyone on a typical game day you end up with the only rules being those of safety, anything else is really 'You bring it, you use it'.

 

I do recall when a site near me back when I was down South had a day where it was limited to one hi-cap or five mid-caps, everything non-AEG was unlimited. This sounds fine, nice and easy but then out comes a rather irate guy with a MP5 saying and I quote '*fruitcage* that, the guys with an AK get 600 rounds, all I get is 200'. Now most intelligent people would just deal with it and move on but no this is responded with 'well you should get a better gun then eh?' from some other players sporting AKs and M4s. It just escalated and in the end up got about ten people arguing over and over again about it.

 

In the end we just moved to our bases, left the argument going and started the game on the rest of the site (everyone had eye pro on in the game zone, even those arguing). Only when the whistle went did they bother to move.

 

Now that was a very simple ammo limit, but all it took was one person to make an excessive comment by shouting and then another few to badly retort and it all kicked off. The rest of us just got on with it, no matter what gun we had and played the game, yet for some they felt this ruined the game and I could see why. When you have to appeal to everyone you have to make everything to the most players and in the case of this ammo limit it just led to too many issues sadly. It could also have been explained better as it was sprung on us a bit (well that and mentioned on the two game days before then but if you weren't there you might not have known) but even then it didn't help.

 

'FireKnife'

 

Haha yeah, good point. 1 Hicap for 1 gun may have much higher capacity than others. I know there are like 850rd M4 hicaps and 900rd AK hicaps. 

[Shardik]

That's a *suitcase* rule to be honest.

 

You may as well hand out 200 BBs to one guy and 600 to the other and say "deal with it"

 

Actual ammo limits are better.,

[ninja master of coffee]

That does sounds like a properly stupid rule and obviously likely to cause issues between players. Equally, I don't really get along with "carry as much as you like" since that can run into thousands of rounds, now, while there is something to be said for more BBs being required to penetrate cover than real bullets (well, duh, they're not made of lead and flying at supersonic speeds), it's not a completely direct analogy to say 90 BBs = a couple of real bullets since you still get the time of suppression you'd get from 90 rounds in real life (assuming that you have roughly equal rates of fire). The result of that is very boring, static games where the side with the most ammo basically just puts up a ridiculous wall of fire that cannot be fought through, any idea of team play and tactics goes right out the window and you just have a tedious and frustrating game of attrition. You're never going to completely emulate real combat in airsoft, it's a ludicrous aim really, you can try and emulate parts of combat but that has to be blended with a considerable amount of what's fun and simply what's actually possible. Now, I personally think what's fun is having decently planned scenarios where people have to work as a team, having an ammo limit helps with this though it is far from the entire story, you need other stuff too, actual communications, properly organized teams and squads with some kind of leadership that is recognized by everyone. You also have to avoid some stuff, excessive individualism is one of those things but so is endless hi-cap rinsing, it gets old, real fast. I think another point to remember is that airsoft is not exactly the same everywhere, while 500 fps AEGs are entirely possible in some countries, in others they're fairly illeagal (like, the UK, for example), it's a bit like a Russian airsofter going "You know what are absolutely rad? 40mm TAG rounds, man, you guys sure should use them!!!" Yeah, OK they look cool but they're also banned here so...

[FireKnife]

It is a terrible rule but it is an example of how people can just say 'we want ammo limits' and then the response is a rule that isn't thought through enough.

 

To really get it right you need to have the whole lot thought out and with contingents for what to do for those that forget or argue about it. Add in the fact that some small number of players just wont play fair and you need to do your best to eliminate this. Now in a ten person game this can be easy but when some sites have attendences of 100 or more players it is pretty hard to do without players feeling it is wasting their game time.

 

As much as I would like to see and attend limited games at the end of the day some players just want to have 2500 or more shots a game and use them all. There is nothing wrong with this in terms of 'it is his / her choice' but it can ruin the spirit and fun of the game if said player digs in and just lays waste to the other team, meaning the other players feel cheated out of a good game. Balance is everything and sometimes you just can't please all.

 

'FireKnife'