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FPS/MEDs - Why?


Redshirt 1-7

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This felt like the best section to put this in. It's more for discussion than just to have my personal question answered though.

 

For a few weeks I've been mulling this one over, maybe longer. Here in America, it's no secret we have some pretty high energy levels that are approved - 400 FPS is usually the standard "assault" fair for woodland play, and sometimes it's even allowed in CQB. One local field here has a 420 FPS limit. I've noticed that in some cases, like in the UK, there's a 350 limit. We differ in that we have to abide by a minimum engagement distance at all times and must transition to a pistol closer than, say, 20 feet (varies by field of course).

 

Why does anyone need more than 350? Why do we have engagement distances in a wargame (no soldier ever swapped his rifle for a pistol when clearing a room)? The point is to have fun, not to hurt anybody, and unless someone would like to correct me here I've never seen any evidence of improvement with just more FPS. All of my guns chrono about 350 or less and two of my three main AEGs can outrange some DMRs.

 

So, in summary, why do we need more FPS, to a point where it's unsafe to shoot other players inside a certain distance? Does it actually do anything? Why should I have to deal with the same standard as people running hot AEGs?

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So, in summary, why do we need more FPS,

 

Jeremy Clarkson Syndrome?

 

To be honest i don't get it at all. I play pistols and my max FPS is 300 on a good day, i have gone up against 350 and more FPS guns with hi-caps and still won so i really don't know why. Considering that when i started the standard was 328 (300 in some places) and getting the average gun to shoot over 310-320 took some work but times have changed and even as we speak more UK sites are accepting 370FPS and reducing the MED's for guns over 370 (from 20m down to 15m), nothing has changed really, aside from there being more players and more variety :P

 

However CQB is still 328 and semi, so it is appropriate to the type of game.

 

'FireKnife'

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I think a huge change in mindset came with the wave of clones. If you look at retailers like ASGI, all the clones are advertised (and sold) based off the fact that they sport high FPS. It's just an easy way to lure people in. Big numbers = better. I personally don't like it, just as unsafe as blind firing and whatnot.

 

I think another argument is that higher velocity helps cut through brush better. To an extent it's true but not necessarily helpful. If everyone had to run under 350, we'd all have an even playing field anyway.

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To be honest i don't get it at all. I play pistols and my max FPS is 300 on a good day, i have gone up against 350 and more FPS guns with hi-caps and still won so i really don't know why. Considering that when i started the standard was 328 (300 in some places) and getting the average gun to shoot over 310-320 took some work but times have changed and even as we speak more UK sites are accepting 370FPS and reducing the MED's for guns over 370 (from 20m down to 15m), nothing has changed really, aside from there being more players and more variety :P

 

However CQB is still 328 and semi, so it is appropriate to the type of game.

 

'FireKnife'

 

Exactly. My primary is somewhere between 330-350 depending on whose malfunctioning chrono you want to go with, and I can pretty much match if not outrange nearly every other player out here. No fancy FPS = better tricks here, but people ask for higher and higher FPS and then whine when it hurts, causing our MEDs to get bigger and bigger...(one field requires 30 feet and won't even let people shoot with pistols closer than 15)

 

Gameplay feels really stilted if you can't move up without stopping to haggle with your pistol (thus losing control of your primary unless you're good enough to one-hand it).

 

I think a huge change in mindset came with the wave of clones. If you look at retailers like ASGI, all the clones are advertised (and sold) based off the fact that they sport high FPS. It's just an easy way to lure people in. Big numbers = better. I personally don't like it, just as unsafe as blind firing and whatnot.

 

I think another argument is that higher velocity helps cut through brush better. To an extent it's true but not necessarily helpful. If everyone had to run under 350, we'd all have an even playing field anyway.

 

Too many oopsies waiting to happen. Agreed 100%.

 

On the topic of cutting through brush, though, they might have a point, but then again I can do that with .28s in my primary gun.

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Are you discounting the use of high FPS rifles in sniper/DMR roles, or are you referring only to CQB situations and "normal" guns?

 

Normal guns. Though so far I haven't been convinced that anyone needs more than 450 FPS on a semi-auto DMR either, I facepalm when people show up with those and still end up shooting less far than me, and for the same reason as with normal AEGs we end up having ridiculously far MEDs because of the guys with the 500 DMR setups.

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Higher fps = push heavier bb with normal speed = more likely to hit at long range(instead of having someone see your bb three seconds before it hits).

But if hop-up sucks then it does not matter much.

 

Idiots who only install big spring and neglect everything else DO NOT COUNT as having DMR.

 

2 rifles with the same setup except one has strong spring will have different maximum range and effective range if hop-up and bb weight is adjusted.

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So, in summary, why do we need more FPS, to a point where it's unsafe to shoot other players inside a certain distance? Does it actually do anything? Why should I have to deal with the same standard as people running hot AEGs?

 

The sad answer as to why FPS levels are ever-increasing is that people want a perceived advantage (it's very easy to quantify FPS and RPS, and very hard to quantify other aspects of an AEG, like accuracy), which they can also boast about. Retailers, knowing that it is very, very hard to convince people that one airsoft gun is more accurate or has greater range than another (in this thread alone 2/3 of the posts claim that the poster's gun has greater range than everybody else's) are instead substituting high FPS as a desirable thing. It's also convenient for retailers, who can as a result boast that their guns are 'very powerful' instead of 'unsafe'. We see the same exaggeration in everything from cars (e.g. American muscle cars, which have enormous power but cannot handle properly), real guns (e.g..50AE or .454 Casull handguns, which impair the shooter's ability to control the weapon) to laptops (e.g. gaming laptops, which sport enormous processing power but have a battery life measurable in seconds). Much like owners of very high RPS guns, owners of very high-FPS guns say things like...

 

Higher fps = push heavier bb with normal speed = more likely to hit at long range

 

...which assert an advantage to be gained by higher FPS (for a RPS gun, it would be that trigger response is greatly improved). While this advantage may be true, said owners never seem to address the concerns of everyone else, namely that at shorter distances it's unnecessarily powerful and thus unnecessarily painful to be shot. High-FPS guns have their place - in bolt-action sniper rifles, which are much more cumbersome to use at close distances, have a reduced rate of fire, and allow 'sniper' advantages and disadvantages to be simulated on the field. With AEGs it's pointless (except in CQB, where it's dangerous as well as pointless) because if a higher MED gets imposed you might as well have bought a DMR and be done with it.

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...which assert an advantage to be gained by higher FPS (for a RPS gun, it would be that trigger response is greatly improved). While this advantage may be true, said owners never seem to address the concerns of everyone else, namely that at shorter distances it's unnecessarily powerful and thus unnecessarily painful to be shot. High-FPS guns have their place - in bolt-action sniper rifles, which are much more cumbersome to use at close distances, have a reduced rate of fire, and allow 'sniper' advantages and disadvantages to be simulated on the field. With AEGs it's pointless (except in CQB, where it's dangerous as well as pointless) because if a higher MED gets imposed you might as well have bought a DMR and be done with it.

Which is why 400fps with .2g is the norms.
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I'm running 400 with 25's right now, I do perceive an advantage, as it is more accurate, and cuts through brush. I want a tight bore, and a new hop up rubber, at which point, I'll be happy with what I have.

It's an inherit-ably dangerous sport, I got a tooth knocked out two weeks ago, shrug. I've had welts all over my body, shrug. It's part of the reason I play, and no, I won't shoot someone within 15 feet or not, whether the field tells me I can or I can't.

Honor and integrity, which is something that is being lost I fear.

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Totally agree with ruvon. Other internal upgrades aside, my rifle is shooting 450fps with .20's. I use .30's to get a bit more range and accuracy since I only have the option of playing outdoors where I live. My field's limit is 450fps with an MED of 50 feet. Since we use such large AO's, sometimes a couple square miles, you will rarely encounter opfor closer than 100 feet. The extra range from the higher FPS and heavier bb's is a must out here in the wide open Utah desert. In all my years of playing with the same crew I have seen one tooth shot out - it was already a false tooth to begin with so I don't know how much that came into play.

 

I understand guys using lower FPS in close quarters, as I would do the same thing. However not everyone can nor wants to run bolt action "sniper" rifles out in large open fields such as the ones we play out here. To each their own.

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It's an inherit-ably dangerous sport

 

Though it doesn't need to be as dangerous as it is. With proper safety precautions, it's extremely safe. People often skip on mouth protection, but in any other sport you always protect them. You can't blame the game as much as you can the players.

 

It's like in college baseball. We're not supposed to pitch 80+mph sliders towards players. Sure, there's no rule against it, but we have the moral obligation to decide whether or not we want to put the batter at risk. I would feel horrible if i nailed a kid in the hand and hurt him because I scooted a ball too near him to gain a competitive edge. We're not professionals and the gains of winning are not worth the pain of others.

 

Same with airsoft. Sure, a 420fps rifle has an advantage over one with the same specs shooting 360 fps. Is it worth it? If I hit a kid in the tooth from 25m and it still knocks his teeth out, I'll feel bad. I'm not in the wrong, but I still feel bad. Therefore, I keep my rifles down for safety.

 

Theres a reason Lion Claws has lower FPS rules than most fields. It's part of being an adult.

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It's an inherit-ably dangerous sport, I got a tooth knocked out two weeks ago, shrug. I've had welts all over my body, shrug. It's part of the reason I play, and no, I won't shoot someone within 15 feet or not, whether the field tells me I can or I can't. [...] Honor and integrity, which is something that is being lost I fear.

 

There's nothing honourable about losing teeth while playing with toy guns. If you lost a tooth to a gun, in my considered opinion, the game has gone from 'managed risk' to 'downright stupid'. Yes, airsoft is an inherently dangerous sport, but that doesn't mean that injury need necessarily result or that if it does it should be accepted as part of the risks. It may be that in the circumstances you US-based players describe...

 

since I only have the option of playing outdoors where I live. My field's limit is 450fps with an MED of 50 feet. Since we use such large AO's, sometimes a couple square miles, you will rarely encounter opfor closer than 100 feet. The extra range from the higher FPS and heavier bb's is a must out here in the wide open Utah desert.

 

...that higher-powered rifles are appropriate. I didn't quote any numbers in my post - what would be appropriate for UK use, which is often at closer ranges, might not be appropriate for you. But I'm sure that even if you add 50fps to the general average (so that we use 350fps and you use 400) I'm sure you'd still consider it ill-advised if someone turned up boasting 150fps higher. That said,

 

You can't blame the game as much as you can the players. [...] We're not professionals and the gains of winning are not worth the pain of others. [...] It's part of being an adult.

 

Absolutely. This is a game, and if you turn up and start removing other players' teeth on a consistent basis (as, apparently, does a player-marshall at a certain UK site) then guess what, nobody will want to play with you and the game suffers. If all the players at your site agree to a limit of 400fps with .2s, then fair enough - they know what they're getting into. Personally, I think you'd be better off keeping your gun at 350fps with .2s and using some movement to get 'close enough' to your opponent, but that's just me.

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So is not going for the head on every shot you put out. So is not flinging eighteen thousand bb's, but as I recall hearing from fellow players, there's a lot of nylon getting slung at a Lion Claws.

As I've never gone (maybe this year, maybe not) I couldn't say from first hand. How ever, if I'm going to take a shot, as I say, I'm not aiming for something that could get broken.

When I got popped and lost mine, it was a lucky shot, from a 14 year old kid running an AGM m4 cqb. From a bit away. As I said, I was done for the day and recollected myself, but I wasn't ###### off or am whining about it, I informed the field admin and laughed, say it finally happened after 6 years of hard play.

 

I know the risks, as does everyone on the field. If you don't come into this sport understanding that bad things can and do happen in it, you learn it very quick.

I't's a matter of educating younger players, on what their guns do, why they do it, and when to do it and not to do it, just like in real steel. It's one of the reason's I like running small skirm's on my local field, so that I as a veteran player can get guy's the chance to see what their gun's will do on the field.

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So is not going for the head on every shot you put out. So is not flinging eighteen thousand bb's, but as I recall hearing from fellow players, there's a lot of nylon getting slung at a Lion Claws.

As I've never gone (maybe this year, maybe not) I couldn't say from first hand. How ever, if I'm going to take a shot, as I say, I'm not aiming for something that could get broken.

When I got popped and lost mine, it was a lucky shot, from a 14 year old kid running an AGM m4 cqb. From a bit away. As I said, I was done for the day and recollected myself, but I wasn't ###### off or am whining about it, I informed the field admin and laughed, say it finally happened after 6 years of hard play.

 

I know the risks, as does everyone on the field. If you don't come into this sport understanding that bad things can and do happen in it, you learn it very quick.

I't's a matter of educating younger players, on what their guns do, why they do it, and when to do it and not to do it, just like in real steel. It's one of the reason's I like running small skirm's on my local field, so that I as a veteran player can get guy's the chance to see what their gun's will do on the field.

 

You could have worn a full facemask and it wouldn't have happened. Again, I rarely see actual injuries from the nature of the sport, other than bumps and bruises. Anyone remember the late 90s? Everyone had a Sansei mask, man, because we were still cautious. I was a kid and I still knew the risks. Now everyone thinks it's Call of Duty, and you forget that you really can get hurt here.

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By the way, 280fps on .2g can also make welts and knock tooth...

 

You can drown in a saucer of water. That's not to say that 280fps is harmless, just that it's a lot less harmful; 280fps is less than half the muzzle energy of 400fps (0.72j v 1.48j). If I was going to get shot in the teeth from just outside MED I'd rather it was with a 280fps gun than a 400fps.

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Here's my opinion to OP's post:

 

Because that's part of American culture.

 

Our culture dictates "the more, the better". The more money, the better off we'll be. The more possessions we have, the more content we will be with our lives. The more wealth we Americans have, the more power we have - which in turn helps us obtain even more wealth. We always seek more no matter what.

 

The same applies to airsoft, especially in regards to FPS. With the perpetual "the more the better" mindset that permeates our society, all the new and entry players into airsoft all think: the more FPS I have, the more range and accuracy I get, the more ability I get to hit others without putting myself in danger of getting shot; so on and so forth. Only after careful scrutiny and mindful thinking do we learn FPS isn't everything. Airsoft guns are like any well tuned machine, push one aspect into the extreme and you risk destroying the entire machine. Players take time to learn this - some take months, others years, and even others not at all. It's those people who seemingly give the airsoft population and the sport in general a bad reputation, as if we're some sort of mad FPS-seeking pain-enjoying psychopaths.

 

I believe this because from experience, I've never seen anyone else from any other country EXCEPT the USA where AEG's exceed 400-450FPS on a regular basis. Most other countries' fields keep them under 400FPS - any higher and they MUST be SA-only/DMR-built/adult-operated. The golden "standard" of FPS thresholds is around a M120 (which in my mind has been for years), and honestly it doesn't need to be anything higher than that unless you ARE going for a DMR or sniper rifle

 

I feel the rules are there to help people realize the "FPS is everything" mantra is wrong. Past a certain threshold it simply gets dangerous, and that's something newer players don't understand off the bat. And recently with the advent of high speed parts, ROF increases are getting profound as well. I have heard of the most ridiculous tech requests/builds from both personal experience and from friends who have worked as techs. 400FPS at 40RPS; 500FPS at 30RPS, and so on. Most of us seasoned players know to gain either, you must sacrifice the other. There are of course techs who want to push the limits of the FPS range, but of course they understand the risks and costs of doing so.

 

I think if us players who are more reasonable and educated about the sport help spread the knowledge to newer players, then this desire for the highest FPS should, hopefully, die down. Sadly in this culture and mindset that dominates the US, such a "movement" would be very hard.

 

EDIT: Sorry if this post sounds a bit conceited...my brain is fried from a long day of OChem studying :(

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Personally i think the whole teeth argument and FPS in general is this:

 

Each site has it's own set limits, this is what they decide is acceptable, if you don't like it don't attend. However people should see this as an upper safe limit, not the amount that should be achieved, like speed limits in the UK (i can go 40 in a 60 area, i just save more fuel as i am not flooring the pedal and have more control, same as taking a tuned 290fps pistol to a field of clones spitting out 350fps).

 

As for tooth loss, at the end of the day it is up to you what protection you wear, me i prefer a face mask as i don't want to lose any teeth, having played both up close indoors and long range outdoors with a variety of FPS limits i still wear a face mask as it makes me feel comfortable. If you just wear shooting glasses and you lose a tooth or take a ricochet under the glasses it is nasty but you can only blame yourself for not taking precautions, yes the other guy may have been aiming for your teeth but if you had taken the choice of a mask then you could stil point out to them that they are a *fruitcage* -tard but you would still have the tooth in your mouth were it should be.

 

I believe this because from experience, I've never seen anyone else from any other country EXCEPT the USA where AEG's exceed 400-450FPS on a regular basis.

 

Hong Kong

Taiwan

And i think Norway or Sweden pull 400fps AEG's from what i have heard

 

'FireKnife'

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This is just going to go round in circles.

 

 

I will say one thing though, last time I was at a skirmish in a FIBUA environment it was questioned, in a slightly accusing tone, if I was using heavier BBs because my AEGs were shooting around 300. No, I just don't see the need for any higher when I was going to be spending most of the day in buildings and I still had equal range of most of the other AEGs there that day. Hell, my pistols outranged a few of them!

 

Reasons for higher FPS I have explained to me by players used to using 600fps* AEGs:

 

- Makes sure they feel it

- More range

- Better for penetrating foliage

 

 

Now, they can all be debated to hell and back and I am sure they will be. FPS is often dictated by local laws and also the area you are playing in. Valkyne makes a very valid point about the areas they play, they are wide open huge areas with engagements at large distances apart and the higher FPS works for them. Meanwhile you don't need that in CQB as your engagement distances are more often 5 metres rather than 55 metres.

 

I have been shot up close by a 600fps* aeg and I have been shot up close by a 300fps aeg and both have hurt like an utter *bramston pickle* and left me bleeding.

 

Do I agree with the use of high powered aegs? Yes, but only in the right environments like what Valknye has mentioned. Not the small paintball fields that I have had them used against me. Would I want to see these high powered aegs used on your average British skirmish field? No.

 

 

 

*So they claim. Tournament limits here are 450fps with .25s. Quite a few guys claim to build more powerful ones for normal skirmishes just so 'people take their hits' with regular claims over 600fps using .20g bbs.

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You can drown in a saucer of water. That's not to say that 280fps is harmless, just that it's a lot less harmful; 280fps is less than half the muzzle energy of 400fps (0.72j v 1.48j). If I was going to get shot in the teeth from just outside MED I'd rather it was with a 280fps gun than a 400fps.

If you were getting shot in the tooth; it is your fault for risking damage by not wearing any protection.

 

Accidents do happen. Do not expect others to lower fps for you.

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Back in the day 450fps was average even in CQB, it really was the wild west as everyone searched for a way to increase FPS reliably. The removal of free areas to play really forced FPS regulations down onto our community. Since the US standard was about an M120 spring, that is where our limits were set; it really started with the larger organized games and communities utilizing the M120 standard and it has just stuck around.

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Can I just say that just because I play at a site which has a 370fps limit for automatics (and have several AEGs which are at ~365fps) does not make me a vindictive tooth hunter. It does, however, mean that I can hit players 200ft away. The range difference between players who know how to tune their guns (or know how to give their guns to someone who does) and the players who can't tell the difference between a hop-up rubber and a hicap will ALWAYS exist, whether the limit is 280fps or 380fps.

 

In the UK you guys have much, much bigger outdoor sites than in HK, where the legal limit is 465fps, and a lot of players disregard that. I've seen games played with 500fps AEGs, full auto, indoors. The sensible people I played with back then set 380fps as a limit for AEGs and we were still engaging at much shorter distances.

 

Teeth can be lost at low fps - I've seen someone loose an incisor to a shot from a stock TM P90, shooting only 270fps, firing 0.2gs at 40 feet away. *suitcase* happens, wear a lower face mask or a shemagh or something else that will slow a bb down. Or run the risk.

 

TL;DR: Higher FPS limits are not the issue, the quality of the players is the issue.

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Higher FPS limits are not the issue, the quality of the players is the issue.

This.

I play at a CQB site with a 430fps limit. Kinda high all considering, but rarely do we get any serious injury/accidents. Worst would be a friends chipped tooth and a time when I got my lip busted from some Singaporean blind firing half a hicap into my face under 3m. We had an incident some 3 weeks ago involving newcomers to the field. They were nice and all to chat with, but when the games started the marshal had to stop games no more than 5min into play due to excessive douchbaggery. The newcomers wouldn't call their hits, would use foul language in engaging their targets and consistently overkill people even while already walking away (towards safe zone). They were given the boot shortly after. What's more disturbing is trying to imagine the field they usually play in that encourages that sort of behavior.

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incidentally, the MAXIMUM fps for an AEG is approx 420fps~ before there is very little adding FPS does to increase range.

 

Woah! I hear you decry such foul blasphemy. The reason is simple, beyond that range (Approx 225-50feet) There are simply too many factors to reliably score a BB on target. I've used a friend 1000fps L96, and we couldn't achieve hits beyond 250 feet reliably, why? Breeze, at 250ft is 5-10ft off on the BB, inconsistencies in the BB, FPS inconsistencies, it became near impossible to reliably hit anything beyond that. Yes you CAN get 300ft shots at 1000fps, BUT not accurately (a 300 foot wind-free warehouse is not a good example)

 

Now in order to give DMR's and Snipers a chance when going against FA AEG's. So 350fps is fine for FA AEG's and 420 for Semi's

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