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dead red rags


adrianm

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or whatever they are called ....

 

Iv noticed from watching alot of airsoft vids on youtube that it seems fairly common for players in the US and some mainland Europe countries to carry about a largeish square or bright red cloth that they put over their head when they are dead.

 

I was wondering why this hadnt caught on in the UK as it seems like a very good idea. Im not suggesting that it should in anyway replace hands up, or be compulsory but esp for medic games where a dead player can be left standing about for 5 mins at a time it could really help them stand out as dead cos lets face it, who holds their arm streight up for 5 minuites streight? I doesnt need to go over the head either (tho thats probably best for 360 visibility). could easily be stuffed into a top pocket and draped over the chest.

 

 

Its a bit of cloth, costs nothing but so effective....do u think UK players just arnt awaire of teh idea or have seen it and decided its rubbish?

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It's been debated on here before and it seemed quite a few people were dead against it, although I can't for the life of me remember the reasons why although I do seem to recall that the main argument was that holding your arm up isn't difficult. Meanwhile those who have used the system before have seen that it works, especially in large areas where holding your arm in the air for 20 minutes whilst you walk back to the dead zone over rough terrain isn't the always practical whereas a red rag stuck on your swede means you have full range of movement with your limbs and there is a positive visual identifier of a dead player that stands out.

 

In a typical skirmish, you try making sure that 100+ players are all carrying a dead rag. It's hard enough getting them all to a briefing on time, nevermind making sure they all have dead rags. Plus they can be lost, etc.

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well thats my point - I play alot of medic games and after the figting in my area has died down i usually drop my arm down nearer shoulder height cos its more comfertable, as soon as i see players i put it right back up again but some time live players see dead ones before they are seen :P

 

Also, i see trigger happy ppl open up on dead players all the time cos either they were surprised or unsure...either way like i said - it shouldnt replace hands up, just be an added visual mark....and a vuluntary one - if someone doesnt ahve one then no big deal - maybe theyl get shot more than plp with them.

 

If marshals made it clear in the briefing what a red cloth on a player means then i think ppl might start using them. Not much point trying to use them if no one knows what teh hell its about :P

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Not much point trying to use them if no one knows what teh hell its about :P

 

That's a fact. I used one at the GZ Weekender last year because of all of the confusion that generally happens and figured a bright red cloth on my head, combined with hands up and weapon slung would be a good indicator I was dead but obviously no one was really aware of why I was doing it and it just gave the trigger happy hosers a nice easy colour to shoot at when they saw a glimpse of it.

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Oh I know mate, but the little story does highlight that it might have to be a site implimented system for it to work properly. I am in full support of seeing such a system used in the UK though as I feel it really does help identify the dead a lot easier for people. I say this because a bright red rag on your head stands out more than a camouflaged arm in a forest.

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I personally carry one, it is a red promo bandana from ages ago and it just helps to wave it in the air and have it draped over you while you rest and wait for a medic.

 

It just means i have my hands free (pistol goes in holster) as the move from where i was hit to the safe zone is not always just a simple walk but may require pushing branches away and going up hill a little.

 

At the end of the day but it is just another thing that if it was compulsory it would hold up game play and unlike a chrono it isn't necessary just helpful.

 

'FireKnife'

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I hate dead rags.

 

Our fields generally encourage them, though despite being "required" the enforcement is generally lax and they tell you to raise your hand if you don't have one. At night I've used a "dead light" which can't possibly be more clear and still been shot, I've been shot while standing in plain sight waving my hand at an approaching enemy, I've been nearly shot in the head at close range with my dead rag (he only responded to the hand properly), been shot with a dead rag on while in plain sight, and so on. Usually our players tend to stick together, and it's fairly obvious who is out, so the increased visibility really doesn't help too much.

 

It seems to give some people this atttiude that they're entitled to shoot everyone repeatedly who doesn't have one even if their hand is up. Disturbing to say the least.

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It's a good tool, lets you easily recognize "dead" players at a distance instead of trying to figure out what they're doing with their hands or gun.

 

As a side benefit, it makes it a little tougher to pull lame "play dead, then surprise attack" stunts, but won't solve the typical issues caused by idiots, such as:

 

Trigger happy spray-and-pray types

Live players using dead ones for cover

Poor game design (dead players moving along with live ones?)

People who are "dead" whenever it suits them, like when they are moving across an open area to choice cover

Poor regen rules in general

Cheaters in general

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Again another system open to abuse, but to sensible players they do help.

 

If i had a site i would not enforce one but i would recommend one, with a ruling that anyone abusing the rule (both by overkilling dead rag players or by using them to gain an advantage) is treated in the same way as a breach of the blind fire rule. That way those that are serious and it will help will use them, as i know all too well the issues of only putting ones hand up and not getting it seen and shot to *suitcase*.

 

'FireKnife'

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mmm, i think all it would take is for sites to say in theri briefing - oh btw some players might have a red rag, if you see it on them its just an extra "im dead" signal.

 

They wouldnt stop cheating, they wouldnt stop trigger happy fools, they wouldnt replace hands up - I do think that they would make things alot clearer tho for the ppl who chose to use them (or rather the ppl looking at them :P)

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If its a quick game with no respawn and a small AO, it's not that big a deal to just stick your arm up and walk off the battlefield. However, at most of the big milsim events I attend here in the US, the red rag is used by around 90% of the players. It clearly and quickly indicates who is alive and who is dead. If I see a potential OPFOR with no red rag, and without their hands up or gun held up indicating they're clearly out, I treat them as a potential hostile. It's that simple. People quickly realize that it's in their best interest to carry kill rags so they don't get repeatedly lit up, and if they're prone to losing them, carry a spare kill rag. It can be a very positive part of the sport/hobby ... so long as everyone knows about it and follows the rules.

 

When my group do a team prep every morning of an event, I do a safety check with my team (anywhere between 10 to 35+ guys). I could careless if they have guns, ammo and batteries on them. I make them do buddy checks to ensure they have the 3 essentials: water, eye protection, and a KILL RAG. Then, if there are uniform requirements for the event (usually specific BDU patterns and headwear coloring), I remind them to make sure their uniform is within regs (people often forget about headwear). Everything beyond that is secondary and up to the individual to check for themselves.

 

A lot of it comes down to event organizers and refs being stricter. Rules aren't always imposed to take away from gameplay. Sometimes they're legitimately in place for the safety of the player. If marshalls clearly explain the necessity of the rules and enforce these rules for all, players WILL conform. And if they can't, then their money would better serve them elsewhere.

 

If red rags aren't institutionalized in the UK, it'll certainly be an uphill battle to get the community to change as a whole. The best way to do it is for event organizers and skirmish sites to start requiring it, and making it easier for players by providing them with "free" kill rags (heck, they could bundle it into the cost for the event or the day's gaming). Kill rags can be very cheap to produce, especially in bulk, and event organizers / skirmish sites can use it as another way to advertise by silk screening / printing their logos onto the rags.

 

I'd really like to hear what the arguments against having the kill rag have been in the past. I've certainly never ever heard someone say "I'm glad I didn't have a kill rag on me." It weighs next to nothing, and it increases your chances of not getting shot up as much when you're KIA. End of the day, there simply isn't a down side to having it.

 

 

 

ETA: beyond kill rags, another great game mechanic is the introduction of "wound rags". It's now a common feature in many large, multi hour milsim games out here in the US (and in other countries I believe), and it has really helped in significantly reducing cheating. I'll see if I can dig up the general rules we wrote up about them.

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Yelling dead man walking alone isn't always enough. It should at least be coupled with the KIA player holding their hand up as an indicator. Trouble is when you're in a game with a lot of players, huge AOs, and long distances between the FOB and respawn locations. It becomes hard to keep track of who is a KIA, and who is in fact an OPFOR still in game and just walking in a seemingly non-threatening manner (but is actually very much still a threat). I've seen KIAs get shot in this scenario all the time, and then they yell at the players doing the shooting : "Hey #&@% !!! I'm dead already!!! Why the hell are you shooting me!?!! Can't you tell I'm dead!?!!" ... Well no actually. No they can't. But you know what does work a lot better? Putting a simple 12"x12" (or similar sized) red rag on your head for all to see and yelling dead man walking as you exit the kill zone and anywhere else in which you're concerned about getting lit up.

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I posted up in a new thread (so as not to derail this one) regarding the medic rules we've been using over the last few years at some major OPs that have really been critical in reducing cheating. To make it work, you simply need three things (1) a white wound rag, (2) a red kill rag, and (3) an understanding of the very simple rules:

 

Medic rules ... aka The "Two Lives" REGEN Rules

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At a recent milsim event, my buddy had a kill rag held up in front of his face ... and was shot through the kill rag into his face as he exited the kill zone. He wasn't pleased. It ain't a perfect system. We just find it works a little better than not having it at all. People make mistakes. And malicious people ... will be malicious.

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True, i suppose over here we don't do change well, plus it does mean finding a red-dead rag which for some is just another thing not to bother with, like basic proper footwear and good clothes :P

 

I know i have one. and it helps, but not always.

 

'FireKnife'

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We have seen it has helped. Especially when you're working your way through a killzone with high casualty rates. It makes picking kill / no kills a little easier.

 

Or, how about I reply to your question "how will a scrap of cloth help?" with my own question: "Is there a down side to it?" If not, and it might help in a small way (or possibly in a big way once it becomes common practice like it is out here) then why the heck not do it?

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Or, how about I reply to your question "how will a scrap of cloth help?" with my own question: "Is there a down side to it?" If not, and it might help in a small way (or possibly in a big way once it becomes common practice like it is out here) then why the heck not do it?

 

exactly - not doing something just because its not 100% effective isnt a very good way of thinking - shouting hit and holding your hand up isnt 100% yet games would kinda suck if no one did it now wouldnt they? Someone said players shoot marshals in high vis...so i guess they shoudlnt bother wearing hi vis?

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Exactly. I'm not saying don't put your hand up and don't call hit, and instead only put a red rag on. What I'm saying is that adding a red rag to the action of putting your hand up and calling hit won't do you any harm. Let's say putting your hand up and calling hit is 70% effective for not getting lit up after you're out (less if you're lazy walking back to the regen and choose not to continuously keep your hand raised and call out hit every few seconds). Now let's add the red kill rag to the equation. Is it going to take that percentage down below 70%? Not likely. Is it going to increase your chances of not getting hit? Probably. We see that percentage rise to 85% or more out here thanks to the red rag, but even if it went up by just 1%, there's still no down side to it so why not do it?

 

As for the muppets that habitually shoot people who are clearly out, it blows my mind that marshals are out there (and site organizers) who don't monitor this kind of behavior and suspend or boot completely repeat offenders. Having a site that is strict about safety and rule following is something to strive for, not avoid.

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It may help but really it is the mind set of the guy aiming at you. He could see the red rag and if he hasn't seen it used before then shoot as normal.

 

At the end of the day airsoft in the UK hs been around for many years with no-one using rags which means it will be hard to change peoples minds about but i still carry one, just makes it easier for those that can see they have hit me and take the time to check that i am out :P

 

'FireKnife'

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