KWA LM4 PTR GBB

[John_234]

Gonna have to disagree. I shoot my AR's a lot in classes and other training (from 2,200 rounds minimum to 6K in a super busy month). I've tried a lot of different triggers from standard GI triggers, to Geisseles, JPs, LMT, KAC, Timneys, etc. The current OEM KWA LM4 trigger is much more like a two stage trigger than a single stage GI trigger. There's a clear take up of slack in the KWA trigger's first stage at which point you hit the wall/break of the second stage. The problem with the KWA trigger is the fact that if you don't decide to follow through with the final trigger break, the trigger won't completely reset itself. This is a known issue and one I would really like to see addressed in the future.

 

I also have to strongly disagree with the notion that the lighter a trigger break is, the less durable the trigger is. There are certainly some triggers out there that have statistically been found to be problematic over long deployments and heavy use. KAC's two stage for example. Geissele triggers on the other hand can come in light break configurations and they're well documented as extremely durable triggers.

Yeah, I guess so. I haven't toyed with taking up slack and letting it go too much, but that would make sense. I just tried that, and I'd probably prefer a single stage too. I'll definitely check out the mod, then.

 

Well, that statement is coming from a 1911 background. If your trigger is too light, its not the most durable. But that's a much smaller trigger and hammer group in general, so it may not translate straight across to an AR. I just prefer not to drop below 4/3 pounds, since you also have the issue of switching between the trigger on primary and sidearm.

Edited December 20, 2012 by John_234

[uscmCorps]

I run Geissele S3G triggers in 5 of my ARs. A couple more still have Geissele SSA's. None of those drop below 3.5 lbs in trigger pull. That IMHO is a trigger pull that should be as light as it goes for any end use other than competitive sports. If I were designing/redesigning the LM4, I'd make an optional trigger drop in kit for the LM4 based on either the S3G or SSA. And I'd certainly would redesign the default OEM trigger to be more like the standard GI trigger. 

[John_234]

I run Geissele S3G triggers in 5 of my ARs. A couple more still have Geissele SSA's. None of those drop below 3.5 lbs in trigger pull. That IMHO is a trigger pull that should be as light as it goes for any end use other than competitive sports. If I were designing/redesigning the LM4, I'd make an optional trigger drop in kit for the LM4 based on either the S3G or SSA. And I'd certainly would redesign the default OEM trigger to be more like the standard GI trigger. 

Ah. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the S3G is a two stage that feels more like a single stage, right? The basis of the Super-V they did for V-tac and whatnot?

[uscmCorps]

The S3G is indeed a 2 stage that feels like a light and smooth single stage. It's like the perfect single stage. The SSA is a true two stage and is excellent in its own right. The Super-V is basically a S3G but with a slightly heavier trigger pull than the S3G. This was made per Kyle's request as a lot of shooters were reporting double taps (this was direct from the horses mouth as I asked him this question myself at Shot this year). Personally I've never experienced that, and I think it more comes down to people needing to spend more time to learn proper trigger control and reset, but whatever.

[John_234]

The S3G is indeed a 2 stage that feels like a light and smooth single stage. It's like the perfect single stage. The SSA is a true two stage and is excellent in its own right. The Super-V is basically a S3G but with a slightly heavier trigger pull than the S3G. This was made per Kyle's request as a lot of shooters were reporting double taps (this was direct from the horses mouth as I asked him this question myself at Shot this year). Personally I've never experienced that, and I think it more comes down to people needing to spend more time to learn proper trigger control and reset, but whatever.

I guess it depends how you ride the reset. Shooters that remove their fingers from the trigger then take up slack again may indeed double tap by accident versus those who maintain full contact through cycling the trigger.

 

What's your favorite out of the Geiselle line for a duty rifle?

[uscmCorps]

Shooters that remove their fingers from the trigger then take up slack again may indeed double tap by accident versus those who maintain full contact through cycling the trigger.

 

That's called slapping the trigger ... aka ... poor trigger control. Which should tell the shooter they need to work on their software, not hardware.

 

 

What's your favorite out of the Geiselle line for a duty rifle?

 

I know a bunch of LEOs that run SSA's as their duty guns. Some feel the S3G is a little too short for their taste. With the S3G, as soon as you start applying pressure it's going to go. The SSA has a distinct take up that guys on duty prefer. The weight of the break is about the same though.

[John_234]

That's called slapping the trigger ... aka ... poor trigger control. Which should tell the shooter they need to work on their software, not hardware.

 

 

 

I know a bunch of LEOs that run SSA's as their duty guns. Some feel the S3G is a little too short for their taste. With the S3G, as soon as you start applying pressure it's going to go. The SSA has a distinct take up that guys on duty prefer. The weight of the break is about the same though.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I just mean that releasing the trigger and making contact again on the take-up is a pretty common technique, good or bad.

 

So how would you describe the Super V in all that

 

 

Also, I went to local field with my leg rig, the LM4 and my WE PX4. The LM4 rocked. California doesn't get all that cold compared to most of the world, but the wind bite was enough that my motor skills were breaking down and the gun locked open every time. I even fired about two mags worth of dry fire out of each of my three magazines before I left the last game to check.

[uscmCorps]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I just mean that releasing the trigger and making contact again on the take-up is a pretty common technique, good or bad.

I don't know a single instructor in all my classes that would ever state that taking your finger off the trigger between trigger presses in a string of shots is "good". It's wasted motion. The take up on the first stage of the LM4 is about 1/4", and maybe about 1/8" during the second stage in which the gun actually goes off, and another 1/4" to fully and completely release the trigger. Completely releasing the trigger between shots means that you've essentially added 1/2" (+/-) of wasted motion which you never needed to do. Multiply that by let's say 10 shots, you've added approximately 5 inches of trigger motion that you never needed to do during a 10 shot string. That's a lot and it translates to an increase in your overall time between shots. Furthermore, it's been proven time and again that the more mechanical movement introduced by a shooter, even in the form of trigger movement, the more accuracy will be negatively effected. This is especially apparent when shooting a pistol. Slapping a trigger is never good.

 

So how would you describe the Super V in all that

I haven't put enough rounds through the Super V trigger to definitively say if it's a more or less appropriate trigger for duty use. I do know a few guys in various depts who said they've tried it but didn't really have a strong opinion which could be good or bad. I will say again though that IMHO for many shooters it's a mechanical band aid for their inability to precisely and effectively control a trigger. For other shooters, it's simply the right trigger for how they go to work everyday and what the job demands of them. I still think the SSA is a better duty trigger and most LEOs and MIL I know feel the same.

[uscmCorps]

Oh, btw be careful of dry firing the LM4. Doing that and especially letting the bolt return to battery with an empty mag in the gun will chew away at your mag followers.

[John_234]

I don't know a single instructor in all my classes that would ever state that taking your finger off the trigger between trigger presses in a string of shots is "good". It's wasted motion. The take up on the first stage of the LM4 is about 1/4", and maybe about 1/8" during the second stage in which the gun actually goes off, and another 1/4" to fully and completely release the trigger. Completely releasing the trigger between shots means that you've essentially added 1/2" (+/-) of wasted motion which you never needed to do. Multiply that by let's say 10 shots, you've added approximately 5 inches of trigger motion that you never needed to do during a 10 shot string. That's a lot and it translates to an increase in your overall time between shots. Furthermore, it's been proven time and again that the more mechanical movement introduced by a shooter, even in the form of trigger movement, the more accuracy will be negatively effected. This is especially apparent when shooting a pistol. Slapping a trigger is never good.

 Yeah, I understand. I'd always ride the reset and minimize wasted movement. It still pretty common in the competitive world, where everyone has their own spin on things.

 

All I'm saying that releasing the trigger is not uncommon, and that it could be a possible source of double taps. I wasn't trying to comment on training in general or the (lack of) validity of the technique,

 

I haven't put enough rounds through the Super V trigger to definitively say if it's a more or less appropriate trigger for duty use. I do know a few guys in various depts who said they've tried it but didn't really have a strong opinion which could be good or bad. I will say again though that IMHO for many shooters it's a mechanical band aid for their inability to precisely and effectively control a trigger. For other shooters, it's simply the right trigger for how they go to work everyday and what the job demands of them. I still think the SSA is a better duty trigger and most LEOs and MIL I know feel the same.

Good to know~

 

Oh, btw be careful of dry firing the LM4. Doing that and especially letting the bolt return to battery with an empty mag in the gun will chew away at your mag followers.

It's especially an issue if you have the mags pressed into the weapon, which has screwed some other LM4 users over, but I'm fairly careful with the rifle. I've seen the pics of those messed up followers though, so that is good advice.

[akiraspeedstar]

Just do what I do when I dry fire and pull out the mag follower, takes about 15 seconds to remove the two screws and the follower and put the cap back on.

[hwagan]

This thing kicks like a frikkin' mule. I am thoroughly in love. Haven't had a massive chance to test the hop/range thus far, but I've finished building it and the like.

 

[ollie_ty]

Thats delightful, you're making me jealous!

 

You can post that M9 to me now youve got a new baby

[hwagan]

Heh, cheers man - And no chance, I love the M9 almost as much! Although it doesn't have as many cool buttons and clicky things attached to it.

[TheFull9]

I'm understanding a lot of the talk about triggers now.  I don't like to use the phrase 'ignorance is bliss' but before I learnt about trigger reset and other aspects of trigger control I wouldn't have noticed how bad the trigger is on the LM4.  Not sure if it'll wear in perhaps, but with mine you can actually take up two separate stages of slack, neither of which reset when released.  Then when you do break and perform a proper reset to 'the click' there's still bloody slack there that has to be taken up again before firing another shot.  Even the L85 doesn't do anything like that.

 

My only other niggle is that the surface finish on the receiver set is a little odd, it seems to really hang on to any grease or moisture from your fingers.  But on the other hand there's zero wobble in the receivers, which is much more important in a GBBr than a real rifle I'd say.  Given that my main complaint with my WOCs was the mags (sorry hwagan, even the PMAGs started leaking within 2 days of being out the packet) I'm really loving the construction of these KWA STANAGs.  They fit just perfectly in to the lower receiver, no worrying about cocking the action before loading either.

 

All things taken in to account, I'm feeling pretty confident about this rifle.  I'm actually almost scared to start taking it apart and doing work since it seems to just functional so nicely right now, I'm frightened I might release the magic pixie dust.

[akiraspeedstar]

Yeah I didn't like the trigger much, I love how it feels now. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TCCfZyFhcg

[uscmCorps]

How's that trigger mod holding up?

[-wigs-]

Youay start to get receiver wobble once you've broken the gun down a few times. Easiest fix is a little foam earplug under the rear takedown pin.

I did the tape method and has jams every other mag. Haven't had one since the earplug

[akiraspeedstar]

Good, no signs of wear after over 800 shots

[TheFull9]

Good tip there, I'll keep it in mind.  Wonder if an accu-wedge would work.

[hwagan]

I'm understanding a lot of the talk about triggers now.  I don't like to use the phrase 'ignorance is bliss' but before I learnt about trigger reset and other aspects of trigger control I wouldn't have noticed how bad the trigger is on the LM4.  Not sure if it'll wear in perhaps, but with mine you can actually take up two separate stages of slack, neither of which reset when released.  Then when you do break and perform a proper reset to 'the click' there's still bloody slack there that has to be taken up again before firing another shot.  Even the L85 doesn't do anything like that.

 

 

 Given that my main complaint with my WOCs was the mags (sorry hwagan, even the PMAGs started leaking within 2 days of being out the packet) I'm really loving the construction of these KWA STANAGs.  They fit just perfectly in to the lower receiver, no worrying about cocking the action before loading either.

 

I'm definitely in agreement with the trigger - Once I've gotten a little more confident fiddling with things, I'm going to give Akira's trigger job a go; Knowing there's a replacement available means at least I can undo the damage if necessary.

 

 

As for the mags, one of mine is literally gas in the bottom and out the top, which is a little annoying and I'm waiting on the valve key turning up in the hope that solves it. I've also fiddled with the bolt catch a bit to get it functioning more reliably (Basically akira's mod without bothering with the charging handle functionality). If it helps at all, the G&P Pmags are pretty easy to break down, and whilst I never had to fix any leaks with the 6 I had, they are really easy to repair (I've fixed one or two for a friend) - Lemme know and I'll PM you with how to tear them down etc.

 

Other than that, and the slight overhop with a .28, I'm very happy with the KWA - The recoil really does put my old WOC to shame, as well as murdering my chinese PEQ  

[-wigs-]

In all honesty I haven't had a aeg be more reliable which is prob just bad luck but I've owned a lot.

My hop up problem was an easy fix, and I just now 6k rounds in might have to do the bolt catch mod that's if its not just the followers needing to be cleaned and lubed like last time.

I've had one mag leak and it was a 50/50 problem. Half a dry oring and half me crushing it by over tightening the valve. Again an easy fix that cost me nothing since the largest oring off a glock valve fixed the problem.

Besides minor things it's preformed flawless and there's nothing like the bolt locking and quickly dealing with if like my real AR. Compared to the one woc I've owned which after 1 k in I gave up on, and the we 416 I had for a bit the lm4 just all around has been the cheaper better performer.

Edited December 29, 2012 by -wigs-

[John_234]

Yeah, speaking of finish my PTS rifle scratches rather easily, but overall its not flaking off in pieces or doing stuff like that so I'm not too concerned.

 

The trigger is pretty decent, I guess. We were running some basic speed drills today. It was just a 5-yard BSA with increasing rounds on target every repetition. Two rounds in 1.5 seconds, three, four, etc. I got about twelve (including running the safety) before I broke 1.5. So I know my shooting isn't fantastic or unbelievable, but even if the trigger isn't the greatest, I find it okay thus far.

[TheFull9]

As for the mags, one of mine is literally gas in the bottom and out the top, which is a little annoying and I'm waiting on the valve key turning up in the hope that solves it. I've also fiddled with the bolt catch a bit to get it functioning more reliably (Basically akira's mod without bothering with the charging handle functionality). If it helps at all, the G&P Pmags are pretty easy to break down, and whilst I never had to fix any leaks with the 6 I had, they are really easy to repair (I've fixed one or two for a friend) - Lemme know and I'll PM you with how to tear them down etc.

 

That'd be handy, cheers.

 

Just tested one of my KWA mags for holding gas so far, but it's all good.  Watched a youtube take down guide for them and they look really easy to work on compared to some other designs out there.  Also waiting on a valve key myself right now as it happens, once that turns up I actually feel quite confident about being able to keep these things runnign nicely.  Not something I could say for the G&P STANAGs.

 

The trigger is pretty decent, I guess. We were running some basic speed drills today. It was just a 5-yard BSA with increasing rounds on target every repetition. Two rounds in 1.5 seconds, three, four, etc. I got about twelve (including running the safety) before I broke 1.5. So I know my shooting isn't fantastic or unbelievable, but even if the trigger isn't the greatest, I find it okay thus far.

 

You must be pretty good, doubt I'd manage half of that, ha.  Which shot timer do you use?  I always wondered if they'd be able to work given the lower dB report of a GBBr.

[hwagan]

Just sent you a rough outline on how to take them down - They should be fixable fairly easily though! G&P Stanags are just awful, short of silicone plumbing sealant they're beyond help.

 

As for the KWA mags, 3 out of 4 of mine are absolutely fine - One doesn't lock the bolt as positively as the other two, hence I've removed the spring from the bolt catch assembly, which has vastly improved the situation. The leaking one is literally not even holding the gas for a second, it's straight in straight out, which is annoying as I've got a game tomorrow..

 

When it comes to bending the bolt catch lever down a little, is heat required? I've given it a go but it seems absolutely rock-solid, and I don't want to apply to much force to bend it a mm or two...