Ever tried a command structure?

[IBMedic]

I'll probably catch some flak for saying this but...

 

I don't really put too much stock on teamwork for airsoft.

 

Why? Quite simple: there is no command structure. People are disorganized and things rarely come together. Just my own experience and observation.

 

So... has anyone tried out actually giving command authority to a single player within the team, as in making someone the squad leader with the power to order teammates around?

[WhiteHawksan]

In the UK it's quite common within established teams. Rarely a 'commander' I run my team, but only by the fact that I arrange everything, on the field we all play as equals and are always in radio contact. That's probably the problem you have, no radios. Radios are essential. I know what's going on 200m away with the tail of the team while I'm at the front, or if someone's spotted someone or everyone quickly knows if I have spotted someone.

[Jimmypie]

I only play milsim games , they always use a command structure , if everyone enters into it 100% it makes for a great game and works really well, the key is getting the information down the line to the right people in the right place.

 

For me and 99% of the people I play with it works, it's role play and shouldn't be taken personally as "ordering people around".

[IBMedic]

In Hong Kong the fields are never large enough to make radios necessary (still nice to have albeit so long as everyone on the channel is certified not to be an idiot).

 

Actually I don't use radios on purpose because it makes for awkward situations where someone asks me to do something that I don't think is smart and I can't just pretend like I didn't hear them...

 

Yeah, "ordering people around" sounds harsh, but that's what "command" is essentially. Good to know things are more organized in the UK. HK is a mess with airsoft team organization. At least with the teams I've played with and against.

[WhiteHawksan]

use a damned radio. There's no such thing as 'not big enough' unless you can clearly shout from one end to the other above GBB fire. And command is disseminating information across comms networks in airsoft. There's no ordering about. I'm sorrie, but if anyone tries to order me about they can rather impolitely go *fruitcage* themselves.

 

When I play milsim, I have 1 radio for my team, and 1 radio for the next level of command up. I don't think team command wants to hear me clogging up the channels organising a defence of an objective. They only need to know the objective is under attack and what the enemy are. If my comms player is there, here carries the command net radio.

 

Any order from any team member is treated as a helpful suggestion. for example.

 

"Hawk, can you move the south side of the bunker and provide me some support? Over."

 

Does not mean, get your fat *albatross* down there before I shout at you, it means, I could do with some more gun here, can you come over? I'm awaiting your reply. It might be, "On my way, out." or "negative, enemy keeping me busy here. out".

 

Practice good team radio. If you've got country side, you can kit up and practice half the team against the other half. If you're in the city. We invented the 'tactical shopping trip'.

 

We all go into town with our headsets. We use discreet ones in town, and practice commands and location information around town. Seems silly, but if you all split up, and try and meet up, move around etc. Make up little games, like, dog walkers are the enemy, and report positions, numbers etc. Just to practice keeping in touch and moving as a cohesive team. When you're on the field, it makes such a difference it's unreal, your team moves like 1 unit, and is MUCH more effective for it.

[Danke]

Radio's are a godsend.

 

I've also found most players would much rather be commanded than be put into the commander's shoes.

 

And yes; command is more like you'd see in a SF team where everyone does their job and the commander hangs back and keeps track of the mission vs. the USMC DI screaming abuse at a recruit.

[WhiteHawksan]

The reason is simple. You're ALL friggin' amateurs. The number of strategically trained, combat tested, command-level military personnel at any given event is very small. I'm no combat expert, my experience comes from training with the marines, computer games and years of airsofting. I'm not Sun Tzu. I'm no better qualified than the next guy on how to deal with a situation when the SHTF. I do my best, and that's all I can do. Anyone who pretends otherwise is almost certainly lying. Add to that, standard military tactics are almost irrelevant to airsoft, and I don't see any professional airsoft strategists on the horizon. Some people have more tactical sense than others, but in the end, it all boils down to a bunch of amateurs with radios keeping track of everything and trying to make the best of any given situation with shared information so everyone knows what the whole picture is, not just what they can see.

[Azubi]

Eastwind uses a command structure and it works well. I can't wait to go back next year!

 

Comms, like WhiteHawksan says, are key to making it work effectively and like him, I have two radios if needs be for inter-squad and command channel Comms.

[WhiteHawksan]

3 or 4 squads is fine, but 6+ and one comm channel gets very crowded, so it's best to have 1 for team comms and 1 for unit level.

[SteevoLS]

Much like dead rags and medic rules, this appears to be something largely absent in the wider world of airsoft that is present nearly everywhere in the US. While there are obviously the "new guys" at every game with paintball gear and clear guns, nearly every game I've attended in the southeastern US (South Carolina, North Carolina, Georgia, West Virginia, etc) has had a CO and XO who direct squad leaders who run their individual squads. Radios are omnipresent aswell.

[Samm]

I don't really put too much stock on teamwork for airsoft.

 

Why? Quite simple: there is no command structure.

 

someone asks me to do something... and I can't just pretend like I didn't hear them...

 

Well you just summed it up yourself there, you're obviously not a team player.

[IBMedic]

The reason is simple. You're ALL friggin' amateurs. The number of strategically trained, combat tested, command-level military personnel at any given event is very small. I'm no combat expert, my experience comes from training with the marines, computer games and years of airsofting. I'm not Sun Tzu. I'm no better qualified than the next guy on how to deal with a situation when the SHTF. I do my best, and that's all I can do. Anyone who pretends otherwise is almost certainly lying. Add to that, standard military tactics are almost irrelevant to airsoft, and I don't see any professional airsoft strategists on the horizon. Some people have more tactical sense than others, but in the end, it all boils down to a bunch of amateurs with radios keeping track of everything and trying to make the best of any given situation with shared information so everyone knows what the whole picture is, not just what they can see.

 

That's exactly part of the reason why I made this post.

 

I like to keep it real, and the reality like you said is that Airsoft is overwhelming a game of amateurs. Now that doesn't mean some amateurs can't have good tactical sense, or that all ex-military are automatically tactical gods, but it does make command structure unlikely to work unless everyone has their *suitcase* together, which in airsoft is rare when you can consider how many people go into games with a dead battery... or "their gun doesn't work"

[Nasty_TheYankWelshOne]

From what I've seen in the US, more airsofters want to be run and gun, lonewolf Call of Duty snipzorz than actually work as a team. Thus, any command structure usually goes to *suitcase* within minutes.

 

I have, however, seen a command structure work brilliantly at smaller, more LARPsim based events, where people actually want to do MilSim rather than run around hip firing all day.

[Cannonfodder80]

No, like others have posted helpfully suggestions are usually given by teammates but if one of us thinks it's a bad idea they are able to say so. In my experience those who start shouting orders are usually the ones who hang about at the back and don't have a clue what they're doing*

 

*This is for an average walk on Sunday, I'm sure it would work for a milsim weekend but as milsim isn't my thing I've never done it so can't really comment

[WhiteHawksan]

see your signature for milsim differences.

 

Most milsim I've been to is the same. Normal games with some pretentious *albatross* rolling off how he was in the SASEALSBSFBI team 9 and barking orders over a radio which are more likely to get you killed than are of any tactical value.

 

There are some very good weekenders where commanders at least have a vague idea of where they stand and whats going on.

[signal319]

Airsoft needs to be played more like a computer game than real life as far as I'm concerned. Basic military skills come into play, but it is a sport with its own unique quirks and differences from real-life combat. Like WhiteHawksan said, there's no one uniquely qualified to lead airsofters into "battle" any more than the next man. In terms of command structure, my team (in this context, the mates I always go to a game day with) usually ends up with me leading them, but that's almost always as pointman of the patrol rather than being like "right lads, this is what we're gonna do" - which sometimes happens but is not the norm - we make team decisions as a collective and if one of us asks for support or whatever else, we will always give it. We have our own comms as well which are handy, particularly at night games. If we need to communicate with the rest of the team we send a runner. Teamwork at "fire-team" or even pairs level and good intra-team communication is more important than some jumped-up idiot trying to micro-manage a "platoon" of airsofters - because it will always go to ratshit and will stifle the initiative of the individual players concerned. Maybe a "Mission Command" style is the way to go. Let everyone know what to do within a game, but not how to do it.

[IBMedic]

Airsoft needs to be played more like a computer game than real life as far as I'm concerned. Basic military skills come into play, but it is a sport with its own unique quirks and differences from real-life combat.

 

Glad someone else is real enough to admit it. Airsoft rules and tactics are very different from a real firefight.

 

I play with a group of really skilled dudes here and none of them use stocks on their M4/MP5 variants. They all use a foregirp instead and they beercan hold it.

 

Would never work in a real rifle with real kick, but this is Airsoft, and so they can get away with it.

[Inari]

It all depends on how you play, and why you play.

 

If your whole goal is realism and replication, then you will aim to play with as much RS tactics and command structure as possible. If you play airsoft as a sport, and want to push the boundaries as a sport, then you will end up like that god awful picture of the speedball competition (paintball masks, custom made BB hoppers, firing over head), because as you said, it's not RS, so people can do things that are impossible in the real steel.

 

Alternatively, you can keep the sport true to its origins - a way for people to have realistic replicas in countries that you cannot own real firearms without jumping through hoops, and playing in a Military Simulation style of play i.e. with active and conscious thought...or paintball with airsoft guns.

 

PS: I have nothing against paintball, or speedball etc...I just feel that airsoft has always been lacking its full potential; I think its close, but just needs a little bit more - more scenario play, more tactics etc.

[J.J.Simpson]

In Lithuania, we have weekend type games. Depending on GM we have sides leaders, squad leaders (Bravo, Delta etc stuff). (up to 60-70 people)

 

for Mil-sim types games and LARP games we have even more dedicated command structure with recon, infantry, signals, sometimes even radom mortars HQ, leaders, squads, single map type, channels, orders etc.

 

We tend to do more military simulation then COD wannabe Tier 1 mission. People who said that military stuff does not work with military - have never really utilized them properly. Offcourse, if you put rain of BBs from the hip. It is your choice Hand signals, proper radio handling, patrols, ring defence, covering fire, interlocking fields of fire for defence. Don't see how that doesn't work in airsoft.

 

Oh, yes. You cannot just ask AH-64 to blow those ****** into the air, so you can advance

[demoncase]

I LOVE the idea of a command structure in airsoft....Because I can remove career congestion or a surfeit of wannabeism with a bit of Friendly Fire.

 

"I'm giving you an order!"

"Interesting...."*blam*...."And that's my response"

"You shot me in the foot"

"Hush, now princess....Dead men don't talk and they certainly don't whine or have the temerity to give orders"

 

Kill enough NCOs and they'll make me a Lieutenant...

Keep at it all day, we might've lost but I'll be a 5 Star Grand Field Marshall

[WhiteHawksan]

There are cross-over tactics for airsoft, but most military tactics are just TOO different.

 

Things like a bush are not solid cover to a 5.56 NATO round, but to a BB they're as tough as tank armour.

Range doesn't translate well, just cutting 400m to 40m isn't the same, you can see, move, react differently at 40m than you can at 400m.

 

Milsim can be fun when it's played properly by people who realise that they aren't REALLY a leetzor general but that they have a responsibility in the context of the game to try and direct their troops as best as they can.

[signal319]

Like I said, some basic military skills apply. In the night games that my team plays (our private ones that is) - we have enough space and scope to conduct proper recce and fighting patrols. Sometimes I even use the orders process before the start of the night to go over the basic points. (Prelims, Situation, Mission, Execution, Service Support, Command & Sigs.) We have our spacings, formations, contact drills, QBOs etc. But you can get away with more things in airsoft than you can in real life, and at the same time there are some elements that don't matter so much. You can achieve tactical but not strategic surprise (e.g. the enemy knows you are coming and at roughly what time, but not exactly where from), or you can afford to get to within 50 metres of the enemy and remain in the standing position without taking any cover; there isn't a real fear factor caused by enemy fire that inhibits movement in one way or another, grenades don't *fruitcage* up everyone's hearing while you're attacking a room, you can't sit 500 metres away in cover with some sustained-fire GPMGs to smash down the wall of a house you want to occupy - there are many elements in airsoft that are in some ways only subtly different from real life but in fact make a significant difference to how a game is conducted than for how you would do things in real life. The way I would consider assaulting a position in airsoft differs drastically from how I probably would in real life, and my scheme of manoeuvre and command & control measures are drastically different. But things like having a "2IC" to control your fire support element's rate of fire while your assault team moves to a favourable point-of-fire to fight through an enemy position are things worth doing - the number of times when just me and one other bod have leopard-crawled for 50 to 100 metres around the flank of an enemy position while under supporting fire to take them all out with some well-aimed short range fire and grenades to make way for the rest of the team to advance... At the end of the day, if you take advantage of airsoft's little quirks and don't try to adhere to all the army field manuals (which no one in real life does anyway) - you are more likely to win. Command and control is NOT about saying "follow me chaps, see you in the re-org for tea and medals", or "I'M IN CHARGE SO YOU DO WHAT I SAY".

 

And let's face it. People don't pay their money to take orders and to get bossed around by someone they've never met. They've paid their money to have fun and to shoot at people. I shout words of encouragement, tactical suggestions, target indications and what not, but I'll never order someone I've never met around the field as if I'm the "boss". In any case I'm almost always at the front so I'm usually crying out for covering fire or a medic instead

 

If you want to take and give ORDERS, join the Services. Don't try and pretend you're General Montgomery on the airsoft field.

[WhiteHawksan]

The above is what I said in far better detail Listen to him.

[signal319]

Glad to be of service. I just get so frustrated when little differences in a collective approach to the game can sometimes make for far better gameplay! When everyone mucks in, gets stuck in and works together, on both sides, it's amazing.

[sigma3]

All that is true when you're in a random group of weekend warriors, but it doesn't mean you can't still apply the same fundamentals of leadership and tactics and get results. Some people let their egos run hot and get angry if someone else tries to tell them what to do. Other people in that exact same situation think, "Thank god, someone who knows what they're doing and is willing to lead" and follow.

 

There is a night-and-day difference between a group of guys who have trained together as a team and a bunch of guys who happen to be wearing the same color at a skirmish. A big part of that difference is knowing who your guys are that have leadership chops, who's actually going to listen to orders, who can get the job done and who can't. This is the same as leadership in ANY organization.