bankz5152 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 Hey, Its been some time since the release of the various GBBR systems and would like to know what one is the most reliable for the price. Personally I have used various standard WE rifles - G36, L85, M4, SCAR and one RA-Tech'd G36. From my experience I noticed that the WEs would only last about 10,000 - 12,000 rounds before failures and that adding the RA-Tech parts caused more issues (G36) than they solved. Also owned a VFC MP5 which was just plain bad and dangeriously unreliable. Ive looked into the G&P WOC series breifly and noticed they use all steel internals but failed to find any information on long term reliability and if they are actually worth the money. Same for the Inokatsu series (bar the 2008 which I know failed). Looked into the WA's aswell which from what I understand are G&Ps without any upgrades and are prone to failures. Read a little on the KWAs LM series which on paper sound exellent though the big KWA stamps put me off... Any help that you guys could share would be great. To sum up im looking for overall reliability out the box (or with minor upgrading) against price. Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites
WhiteHawksan Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 Well, the G&P WOC series is the winner, BUT, they're quite rare now, standard G%P WA's come with aluminium internals and you will after X amount of rounds (cue hwagagaggagagagagan) need replacing with steel gubbins. Next up would be the Viper, very good. But with a price tag to match How confident/fun do you find tinkering with guns? You can make a newer WE (g39/L85 etc) shoot quite well with some tinkering, and for value for money you'll be hard pressed. Also, what are you looking for? Fixed gun, don't care about looks, just want BB's to fly or a gun you can customize to the hilt? Link to post Share on other sites
adadqgg Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 GHK seems to fit what you want. Link to post Share on other sites
gijohn2 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 The aluminium internals for a WOC work perfectly fine, So dont be put off by that as its not an issue...Atleast it isnt pot metal *cough*WE*cough* Link to post Share on other sites
Stuey Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 The GHK KAC PDW is supposed to be very good. They need to make an MP5, would be awesome if the PDW is anything to go by. Link to post Share on other sites
Jackster802 Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 KJW beats anything. The WA system has weak points, and WE's just arent that good in general. The KJW M4 will still work with multiple parts broken, and the mags are bulletproof. Link to post Share on other sites
hwagan Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 The KJW also has weak points, and G&P Pmags are equally bomb-proof. In the end, there's pro's and con's to every single system and this is an arguement that comes up way to often with no conclusion. Every GBBR system can be made reliable and effective with enough money spent on it. Some, like the KJ, are reliable out the box but lack external options. The WE suffers pot metal parts, but these can be replaced etc. My G&P WOC has never failed me, not even once, not even in the coldest of british winters when I've kept the mags under a coat. BUT - To buy a similarly Spec'D WOC and a combat load of mags, you're looking at £600 if you're lucky. Link to post Share on other sites
WhiteHawksan Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 as I said, the more info you provide as per budget, expectations, confidence tinkering etc. The easier it is to narrow down =] Link to post Share on other sites
Sallinen Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Daytonagun AK series. Dirt only slows it down and I have found snow and ice inside mine in winter. Use her as you are supposed to and she'll serve you long and well. Link to post Share on other sites
bankz5152 Posted July 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 I am pretty confident when it comes to tinkering and a friend of mine is fantastic and making gas guns go so Im happy there. + I do enjoy learning how they work. Im not really too fussed about looks as long as its realistic looking, i.e KWA LM series with the massive KWA logos on the side.... If its an armalite must have a RIS top rail as I can't get on with irons and dont like carry handle mounts. I am after reliability most of all with a budget of around £600-ish depending on the model it could be stretched out a bit further. I know the WE system pretty damn well and as I said its fine up until about 10K then issues form that sometimes can't be solved. What are the weak points of the KJW? Link to post Share on other sites
WhiteHawksan Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 weak points of the KJW Proprietary internals/mags/bodies But it does have a flat top rail, Also it's reliable as anything. Link to post Share on other sites
hwagan Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 What are the weak points of the KJW? I'd say with your opinion on KWA trades, the receiver will be the biggest issue - Totally unmarked, and no traded replacements are available, although you could go the engraving route. You're also stuck with the bulky KJW thermold mags, which, while very well made, are a bit ugly. Spare parts need to be ordered through KJW, although it doesn't seem the easiest process; However, I've got no intention of arguing that the KJW is a very reliable gun out of the box, but aftermarket support is limited, as well as external options. I'm gonna say G&P WOC. Ask Sean/Harry/Joe their opinions on mine I'll also say that I've tested a G&P Pmag in a King Arms M7A1 at Wolf, and the performance is fantastic; Whilst the hammer and selector are aluminium, a few of the FCG bits are steel, and the thing runs like a train even with the aluminium parts, which can of course be replaced easily with steel bits when they do wear out. The King Arms is pretty much on a par with the G&P, maybe with not quite as tough a finish, but it can be upgraded with G&P bolts, steel bits and whatever else. Going on the fact you want realism, nice externals and reliability; Either a G&P or a King Arms AR system - Both are externally very nice, although I'd recommend the G&P only because mine is a freight train of a machine. I took it to the sandpit twice without cleaning it between games and didn't suffer a problem. I've used it in snow without a hitch, I've used it as a hiking stick to get up the embankments at the sandpit, and I've used the buffer tube to hammer some nails into a wall to put coats on in my flat. *edit* Should also mention; Don't worry too much about a WOC/King Arms with Aluminium guts. They'll hold out for 10K rounds and then some, and the steel replacements aren't too pricey to swallow, and will essentially mean you're only likely to need to replace the BCG. I'm yet to need to replace a mechanical part on mine, and of the 3 bolts I've got, one of which is on a good 12,000 cycles, all 3 still lock back solidly. Link to post Share on other sites
jkpics Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 One big plus for WE M4/M16 is the open blot kits, you get a complete bolt, trigger pack, barrel + hopup so every moving part for about 70 USD. Link to post Share on other sites
bankz5152 Posted July 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 So the WOCs and WOC-Xs are as good as each other up to about 10K rounds? Ive seen a couple going for sale. Whats the hop unit/accuracy/effective range on them? Also where does one get steel internals when the time comes? Link to post Share on other sites
hwagan Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Essentially they're the same thing; Obviously the aluminium parts will wear faster, but you're not likely to replace them for a while. Don't bother with a steel BCG either, the perceived recoil isn't an awful lot better due to the slower cycle rate, and obviously it makes it useless on a colder day. When it comes to the Hopup, I'm not as clued up as some people because I seem to have been lucky with mine; It's fitted with a 5.5" cut down RA-Tech 6.03, and an RA-Tech rubber. That combination, for some reason, seems to send a .3 60 metres on a flawless trajectory through a range of 60FPS depending on the weather. G&P rubbers seem to be a bit sticky and overhop in hot weather, but again, 2 friends of mine who own WOC's are doing alright with the stock rubbers, they've just had some overhopping problems on hot days. Both of them have RA-Tech rubbers on order 'n all. Link to post Share on other sites
bankz5152 Posted July 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Well that sounds good. The information provided on the WOC series seems sound and what im after. I'll look into where to actually obtain one first of all... Thanks alot guys, cleared up alot of questions! Although I havnt heard much love for the Inokatsus? Link to post Share on other sites
hwagan Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Ehobby have a few WOC-X's in, and the VN obviously which is steel guts. Wolf have a few of the KA M4A1's at a reasonable price and possibly an M7A1 left... There's also LandWarrior and I think JD Airsoft, who each have a WOC (steel guts) Sentry, but I know the LWA one has been there for 2 years and it may have been one of the first batch. DenTrinity seem to have a better selection, but I've never dealt with them. I'd try the usual HK retailers; There's not a lot of choice at the moment due to G&P's apparent production move, but EHA have just restocked the G&P Mk18, which leads me to believe they're starting to produce them again. Actually, I know they're still building them, because somewhere on an ocean at this moment is an MRP with my name on it Link to post Share on other sites
bladerunner168 Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Dang, you actually bought it? So efffing jealous Anyways, I have the KWA/KSC Magpul M4. Build quality of the externals is a bit poo, mags are exceedingly well made. Internals are top notch. Gas efficiency is excellent, much better than the WA I had. The hop is old school KSC ball bearing style, so again, poo. I reckon with when Volante makes the new style of KSC hop available for the M4's, the KWA/KSC will be a viable option for regular skirmishing. Link to post Share on other sites
bankz5152 Posted July 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Ive seen the ones on E-Hobby dont look too expensive. Out of interest are there different uppers you can buy? I liked the look of the CAR-15 and the price but only if I could change the upper to a RIS and the foregrip to a RIS. If thats even possible.. Link to post Share on other sites
hwagan Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Thing with the A1 receivers is they're Prime/RS/Ino specification, and a little longer; You'll need a similar spec'd upper, but you can add anything onto just about anything with a receiver thread. For ideas on tactical Car-15's, here's my old AEG for a laugh/to upset the purists... Still, problem with the Car-15, is as awesome as the stock looks, it doesn't really work. It's got a shortened buffer tube, and as such, the bolt closes too quickly, leading to the remaining gas leaving the mag bumping it back, double-feeding and causing a jam. I bought one with the idea of filling it with steel, but I quickly discovered several recoil springs later that I couldn't really tune the buffer to work very well. I might have gotten a lemon, but I'd stick with the standard G&P spec to be on the safe side. Mk18 is about $350, and all the right spec, and in stock at EHA - You'll get £60-80 for the Mk18 rail if you fancy swapping it out 'n all. Probably the one I'd go for. Alsoooooo.... Search on Ehobby for the complete WOC uppers they do in black or tan; VLTOR MUR, charging handle, other furniture, mid-length MOE in FDE or black, 12" silver barrel and railed gas block. For $150, it's a great base for another upper, and it's a damned nice upper anyway. Link to post Share on other sites
bankz5152 Posted July 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 That looks awesome! Good to know on the CAR-15, stay away then.... Thanks Hwagan youve been more than helpful. I do very much like the idea of building my own spec VLTOR system from a WOC. Ill have a looke now see what kind of price ill be looking at. Link to post Share on other sites
hwagan Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 No problem man - The more GBBR's on the field, the less ammo I'll have to waste trying to hide the sound of sewing machines It's not going to be cheap, but it'll definitely be worth it! Also, when it comes to mags - A friend of mine has Pro-win V2's and whilst their gas-tight, he's having a lot of issues with rounds jamming up in the feed chute without much luck. Another friend is using G&P V2 stanags and doesn't seem to have any problems, but I haven't seen them go through enough use to say they're good. I'm not going to say don't buy anything but G&P Pmags, but in my opinion they're awesome - I've reviewed them in the gas section, they're practically bomb-proof. *edit* Oh, and Bladerunner - Not ordered it as such, it's been ordered for me! Weeks to wait though Link to post Share on other sites
bankz5152 Posted July 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 ''No problem man - The more GBBR's on the field, the less ammo I'll have to waste trying to hide the sound of sewing machines'' The best thing said in 2012. I bought the WE G36 on release since then ive never turned back to AEGs except my P90, but thats because I love P90s . I was going to get the G&P P-Mags anyhow, love the look. Im down to major choices now - This - http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/other-gun/gas-blow-black-rifle/g-p/gandp-woc-m4-carbine-v5-daniel-defense.html With a VLTOR MUR Reciver & 9" DD Rail System and matching outer barrel (which I can't seem to find?) + 5 G&P Pmags and selling the rest of the bits inc the original mag. Coming in just shy of £700.00 all brand new (should make about £100 back of the parts selling) Or I saw an un-used Inokatsu 2009 SV M4 (not sure on the year) for £500.00 + x5 G&P PMags Coming in around £600.00 Link to post Share on other sites
gijohn2 Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 I can also speak for the Pmags, I personally think they are better then the ProWin mags. My prowin mag wobbles in the mag well giving it poor gas efficiency only when i push the mag forward and up it starts to perform well (easily fixed just cant be bothered) As for Pmags, Flawless and if they leak they are easily fixed with a pack of orings from halfords Link to post Share on other sites
hwagan Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 G&P Pmags have the ability to leak? And I gotta say, slightly off topic, it's really nice to see more and more Arnie's members going the GBBR route, I remember 2 years ago they were still considered something akin to witchcraft or a curse, heh. Anyhow - I can't say on the Ino, but they're all steel which is good, although in UK temps, a steel bolt really isn't practical, but I know RA-Tech do Alu bolts for Ino spec guns, but they'll be pricey. My personal opinion, I'd go with the WOC plan. The parts you'll be ripping off are all in fashion, so they'll sell easily enough. As for the matching length barrel, I don't know if I've even seen a 9" outer barrel... 10.3", or 10.5" - I assume you're going for the flashhider poking out the rail look? Link to post Share on other sites
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