Gooberz Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 I can't count the times I've heard a reviewer say the words "and it takes M4 Mags, so if you run out your buddy can loan you one", and the like. It's a given that a huge amount of airsofters run M4s, and M4 variants, so it would make sense that their magazines are readily available. I don't even have an AR variant, and I have 9+ M4 mags! So I got to thinking, what could I do with them? Chop them up for use in my Famas? That makes the mags ugly, and probably wouldn't work with PMags. Figure out a way to get my AK to accept them? Hey, now that's an idea! A Little History: Little known fact: TSI Armories makes an M4 to AK converter. This product is made on a CNC machine out of steel and aluminum. With that said, that's a pretty pricy way to build something for a toy in my opinion. Simply buying this product does not satisfy my criteria. As a disclaimer, I do not want to clone the TSI adapter. My goal in this project is to create a similar part, designed 100% by myself in Solidworks, and printed on a local 3d Printer. Furthermore, I don't own the TSI product, and I'm not copying the design. Any and all measurements, mechanisms etc are of my own doing. However, there's only so many ways to skin a cat, so my part will probably look pretty similar at the end. I don't have any prior experience with this printer, but I know how to make files for it thanks to my drafting class last semester. It prints ABS plastic in layers, and allegedly has an accuracy up to .007 mm. Observing printed objects, they appear to have "layers", so some sanding will be required. The plastic is also white, so a good paintjob will be in order as well. On design: This is a simple design, like the M4 to Uzi magwell converters. It would rock into the AK body like a standard AK mod, and release the same way. When installed, it functions as an M4 magwell, complete with M4 mag catch. No need to remove the converter to change magazines. The design that makes sense to me is a clamshell design. The final product would have 8 parts - 4 screws, 1 spring, 1 M4 mag catch (Printed or purchased, depending on how I design the body), and 2 halves of the body. Here's what I've got so far: I don't have access to a true AR magwell right now, just my Tavor, so as I take measurements and play with it the magwell will begin to develop, and the individual parts will take form. On cost efficiency: Based on the price per cubic inch of plastic, if I were to print a solid block of ABS the same dimensions as my adapter, it would cost me less than half the TSI adapter's price. Once you take into account the fact it's a magazine well (Hollow), and has a channel running through it for the BBs, the price is even lower. Another trick Solidworks has is "Shelling" an object - Making it hollow, with a specific wall thickness. When it's all said and done, I think I could make 2 to 4 adapters for the price of one TSI adapter. I'm not trying to pedal this as a product, I'm just acknowledging that price is a concern. So, does anyone have tips on how I could make this better? I'm a mechanical engineering student with just one year of experience, so if anyone with more knowledge of CAD could give me pointers, I'd appreciate it. Ergonomic concerns are welcome as well. Link to post Share on other sites
adadqgg Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 My comrades use AK mags. Thanks but no, there is no problem. This takes realism out of window/box/whatever. There are real 5.56mm mags for AK but never any reason to use actual M4 mag in AK. You would make more money if you make actual Airsoft M4 receiver+hop-up set to take Airsoft AK mags. Link to post Share on other sites
Isamu Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 I think there are AK mags for M4 too... maybe it would be much cooler if you could make an sr47 lower reciever or even an sr47 body, just cheaper than the 500$ hurricane one Link to post Share on other sites
AceOfSkulls Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 M4 to AK made me think you where putting AK mags in an m4. Goodluck, interested to see what it looks like. Link to post Share on other sites
aznriptide859 Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Definitely interested in seeing what you can pull off. Being a semi-AK purist myself, I can say it WILL look ugly lol, but with the massive amount of M4's on the field its more practical if you do run out of your own AK magazines. That said, will the adapter be added onto the AK first, then the mags put into the adapter (with a mag release on the adapter), or will it be added to each mag? Didn't get that clearly across my head :/ Link to post Share on other sites
Gooberz Posted July 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 My comrades use AK mags. Thanks but no, there is no problem. This takes realism out of window/box/whatever. There are real 5.56mm mags for AK but never any reason to use actual M4 mag in AK. You would make more money if you make actual Airsoft M4 receiver+hop-up set to take Airsoft AK mags. Realism and purism aren't huge concerns for me. The way people play airsoft is completely different than the way militaries fight anyway, but that's another story. There is a Hurricane SR47 kit for that though. I'm not necesserily trying to make a fortune here. I want to test out this 3d printer. But if a few people want to buy adapters, I'd be more than happy to sell a few. I think there are AK mags for M4 too... maybe it would be much cooler if you could make an sr47 lower reciever or even an sr47 body, just cheaper than the 500$ hurricane one I might be able to pull that off, but that's way more intricate and fiddly than I just finishing this adapter. M4 to AK made me think you where putting AK mags in an m4. Goodluck, interested to see what it looks like. Hmm, good point. Maybe I should make the name more clear. Definitely interested in seeing what you can pull off. Being a semi-AK purist myself, I can say it WILL look ugly lol, but with the massive amount of M4's on the field its more practical if you do run out of your own AK magazines. That said, will the adapter be added onto the AK first, then the mags put into the adapter (with a mag release on the adapter), or will it be added to each mag? Didn't get that clearly across my head :/ Ugly is fine. My favorite AK is a stub-nosed AK Beta with OD furniture Ala STALKER, so from the get-go it isn't a very "authentic" platform. The adapter installs onto the AK, the same way you would insert an AK mag. The bottom of the adapter will function as an M4 magwell. So the adapter stays in, and M4 mags come and go. If you wanted to remove it, it'd be as simple as removing an AK mag. If you've ever seen the UZI M4 converters, they work in a similar fashion. Thank you everyone for your posts. I've gotten some CAD tips from a guy on another forum, so hopefully the next update will be even cleaner and more complete. Stay tuned! Link to post Share on other sites
adadqgg Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 The way people play airsoft is completely different than the way militaries fight anyway, but that's another story. There is a Hurricane SR47 kit for that though. You just insulted every semi-realistic milsim events out there. Hurricane SR47 kit is super expensive. Think of possibilities if you could make something $50-100 out of plastic, if you could make it take actual Airsoft Ak mags instead of airsoft M4 mags shaped like AK mags. Link to post Share on other sites
Gooberz Posted August 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 You just insulted every semi-realistic milsim events out there. Hurricane SR47 kit is super expensive. Think of possibilities if you could make something $50-100 out of plastic, if you could make it take actual Airsoft Ak mags instead of airsoft M4 mags shaped like AK mags. There's a difference between playing airsoft and the military. I've been in the Army for about a year; completely different experience. Sorry if you take offense. I understand what you're saying, but that's not something I'm interested in making right now. Perhaps in the future. Like I said, I don't actually have an AR variant at the moment, so the overhead for making a part as you describe is much more than $50-100. Link to post Share on other sites
HudsonUK Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 How would you solve the problem of the magazine feed holes being on different ends of the mags? Link to post Share on other sites
Gooberz Posted August 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 How would you solve the problem of the magazine feed holes being on different ends of the mags? It's a bent tube. I must have forgotten to write that in the original writeup. Feeds from the front of the M4 mag to the AK hopup. Link to post Share on other sites
Gooberz Posted August 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 I can't seem to find an edit button on my last post, so please forgive the double post. Here's an update. As you can see, it's much more complete. The biggest thing I need to do is make accommodations for a M4 mag release, followed by branding in the recessed sections (Made in USA, www.Cardella.TK, etc). Minor cosmetic finishing will follow, including filleted edges, and likely more/differently shaped recessed sections. Here's a transparent view, because I was getting a few questions about "how do you plan to feed from the front of an M4 mag to the middle of an AK mag? Bent tube. You can also see the body has been shelled out to 2mm, to save plastic. The price is currently well within my desired price range, and will only decrease as I tweak the design. The earliest I can expect to print a prototype will be late August. Link to post Share on other sites
crackisbad Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Glad to see more tinkerers here on Arnies! Have you heard of Shapeways? You can submit your designs and print with a variety of materials, including some metals. Also, you can make a "store front" on where you can sell your designs to others! http://www.shapeways.com/ Link to post Share on other sites
AMC1096 Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 I actually like this idea. However, if an m4 hopup when it stops shooting bbs, and you remove the mag, 3 bbs come out of the hopup chamber. How many would be in that conversion? Atleast 5 in the converter, and how many in the hopup? Seems like a lot of extra ammo that will be left over when the mag runs dry. Link to post Share on other sites
Gooberz Posted August 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Glad to see more tinkerers here on Arnies! Have you heard of Shapeways? You can submit your designs and print with a variety of materials, including some metals. Also, you can make a "store front" on where you can sell your designs to others! http://www.shapeways.com/ I've heard about Shapeways, yes. It was actually my first choice before I found out my school had the printer. I think the only reason I'd use them now is for materials I can't get it printed in at school. Although, the current design would probably be pretty hard to make out of metal, as one solid piece. If I can get away with printing it as one piece, I will. But hey, I've got the various files I need to make a shelled version, if there's a demand for metal converters. I actually like this idea. However, if an m4 hopup when it stops shooting bbs, and you remove the mag, 3 bbs come out of the hopup chamber. How many would be in that conversion? Atleast 5 in the converter, and how many in the hopup? Seems like a lot of extra ammo that will be left over when the mag runs dry. Thanks! I can't tell you for sure, but 10 sounds about right. I'll be sure to do tests when I finish it. I do admit that's quite a bit of ammo, but with a highcap or midcap it won't be as bad. This isn't really a project aimed at mil-sim players using lowcaps. For the most part, gravity should feed the remaining BBs if you cant the gun nearly upside down. Not the most accurate way to finish a mag, but it's useful for suppression. Link to post Share on other sites
crackisbad Posted August 2, 2012 Report Share Posted August 2, 2012 You could also do what the Madbull M4 units do; cut a small channel in the feed nipple and put an o-ring that keeps the bbs from dropping out. Wouldn't really help with the first mag but would probably make a difference with subsequent ones. Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted August 2, 2012 Report Share Posted August 2, 2012 If you need an idea for a mag catch, an Uzi design would be easy to make. Just one moving part, a spring and pin. Plus it retains similar one-hand operation when removing an ak mag. Link to post Share on other sites
Gooberz Posted August 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2012 You could also do what the Madbull M4 units do; cut a small channel in the feed nipple and put an o-ring that keeps the bbs from dropping out. Wouldn't really help with the first mag but would probably make a difference with subsequent ones. Hey, that's a quick fix, and doesn't make the adapter inoperable if the o-ring fails or falls out. If I can find an appropriately sized o-ring locally, I'll be sure to implement it. If you need an idea for a mag catch, an Uzi design would be easy to make. Just one moving part, a spring and pin. Plus it retains similar one-hand operation when removing an ak mag. This is a really good idea. After seeing the Uzi catch, I've decided to modify the design slightly. The rear placement of a small uzi-style catch makes for an awkward placement, but if a similar catch is extended horizontally it becomes more ergonomic. I'm working out a draft right now, and I'll post it later tonight. Link to post Share on other sites
Gooberz Posted August 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2012 Progress! Alright, here's the beginnings of the mag catch housing. I'll need to make an indention for the spring, as well as the actual lever. Other than that, it's nearly complete. As you can see here, there's sweet trademarks! There's a rim around the bottom of the magwell, and the inside is chamfered. Little improvements. I thickened the sides of the magwell, as well. Link to post Share on other sites
WhiteHawksan Posted August 3, 2012 Report Share Posted August 3, 2012 coming along well, be interesting to see if the channel is too steep and may cause feeding issues. Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted August 3, 2012 Report Share Posted August 3, 2012 As a rule when making feed tubes I keep over the minimum turn radius (ID) of the tightest ones I know: TM shotshells at 5mm. Regarding the mag catch, just my opinion but it may be better to keep the thumb position at the back. AK users are used to reaching over the back of the mag to hit the release. Link to post Share on other sites
Sidewinder-forge Posted August 3, 2012 Report Share Posted August 3, 2012 Could you put a softly sprung ball catch at the bottom of the adapter feed tube to stop losing the BBs in it? SAS Link to post Share on other sites
dog_soldier13 Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 Why has no one suggested that idea before. BBs are cheap but its still annoying as ###### when you do a mag change and 5 BBs fall out. Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 The mods been around. Cheapest way is cutting a small slot on the feed tube and positioning an o-ring at the slot so it provides just enough tension on the bbs to keep them from falling out. Others don't prefer this mod because it doesn't allow you to easily empty a gun and render it safe. Link to post Share on other sites
Gooberz Posted August 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 The mods been around. Cheapest way is cutting a small slot on the feed tube and positioning an o-ring at the slot so it provides just enough tension on the bbs to keep them from falling out. Others don't prefer this mod because it doesn't allow you to easily empty a gun and render it safe. The flip side to that, is that to empty the gun you simply remove the converter, and fire twice on semi. Current status on the converter: The 3d printer will be available as of Monday, other than that I'm just waiting on a paycheck. Link to post Share on other sites
blobface Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 Ummm... title says M4 to AK magwell converter, that suggests an AR magwell that takes AK mags, but I'm looking at the opposite... which from my understanding (and someone has brought it up already), doesn't exist, I guess M4 mags are more available than AK mags to allow for mag sharing etc... but other than that... not sure why anyone would want this. Was expecting an AR47 conversion lower when I read the title. Link to post Share on other sites
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