Meathead316 Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Hi I wanna try my luck at making a AA12 AEG shotgun. From a quick google search I have found that this has been attempted in the past, but no one has ever finished it.... Now I'm gonna be realistic, this is not going to be easy, and after ive got the basic components and had a tinker, I may well find that its just not feesable for 1 guy to do with basic materials and simple tools and parts, but we will see... Basically what I want to make is take the Tri-shot effect from a spring shotgun and combine it with the full auto awesomeness of an AEG. What I WONT be doing: - Modding a sandard gearbox to triple feed (as if it misfeeds and only feeds 1bb, it will fire super hot! - Using shells of any kind (shells are cool, but I want a skirmishable weapon) - Pouring 100's and 100's of hard earned dollar ino this (think I am? made of money?!) - Making it 110% bang on real life accurate (some aspects may have to be altered slightly to make it work, as i did with my minigun) My plan is: - M4/M16 AEG (metal gearbox is a must) cut it down so that its just the lower half of the body, gearbox, trigger and grip. This will then be rear wired. Internally i will be upgraded with torque motor, torque gears, reinforced piston, 400-500fps spring - Hicap mag, most likely an M14 mag as they are straight - 8.4v battery (I dont want the rate of fire to be too high, say 10rps max) - 3 barrels each with its own non adjustable hop (similar to the tri-shot shotties) - a feed system which will be some sort of AEG/Tri-shot hybrid. - A scratch built PVC AA-12 body which must come apart to allow access to the internals and have space for a battery in the stock. So far I have found LOTS of referece pics, and have made a simple cardboard cut out of the gun. My first thought was "its massive" but i double checked and all measurements are correct. This is good as it give me more space iside to fit everything Also I have laid my M4 (which I am most certanly NOT cutting up for this project as it was the first AEG i ever bought) ontop of my cut out and the grip, magwell, trigger and barrel all line up!! So far so good, but what I need now is help. Not with my build plans (unless you see major flaws in my ideas.....) but with parts. I for 1 have loads of guns, and a few boxes of "airsoft stuff" one is full of mags, shells, carry handles etc etc, the other is full of random internals, but, most are broken or not suitable. Now I cant be the only one who has a random box full of parts, so if you do then have a root around for me and buying brand new will cost loads more! So before i can really begin I need to source parts, I need: - M4/M16 AEG with a metal gearbox (any condition, and I only need parts mentioned above) - 3 Identical inner barrels (or some sort of metal/plastic pipe with 6.04ish inner diameter, M4 barrel length) - 3 identical nozzles - High torque gear set - High torque motor - Reinforced pison and head So if you have these parts you wanna sell (or donate!! ) then reply here or drop me a PM! As soon as I get these parts I can begin working on making the feed system, and if (and only if) that works will this project continue (surely it cant be that hard....) Link to post Share on other sites
bankz5152 Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 If anyone can do this then you can. I highly look forward to seeing this. Link to post Share on other sites
WestyIII Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Would be class, few questions/points of intrigue. One Gearbox - 3 nozzles - 3 hop units, a lot of potential for air leakage? How will the air seal be achieved splitting the 1 Gb between 3 nozzles? 500fps GB - if one mis feed in your hops, the fps will rise again. Why a hicap? You can get more reliable feeding from mids - no winding etc. Link to post Share on other sites
Avenger96 Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 If you can manage the outer body, don't give up on this! It will give me needed faith in humanity! If the trishot system doesn't work inside, you can use single shot and pretend it's frag rounds, the preferred ammunition of Hail Caesar. Good luck! Link to post Share on other sites
Meathead316 Posted September 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Would be class, few questions/points of intrigue. One Gearbox - 3 nozzles - 3 hop units, a lot of potential for air leakage? How will the air seal be achieved splitting the 1 Gb between 3 nozzles? 500fps GB - if one mis feed in your hops, the fps will rise again. Why a hicap? You can get more reliable feeding from mids - no winding etc. 3 nozzles are required as there will be 3 barrels. There will be no hopunits and they are far too big to fit inside a 25mm outer barrel, instead i will make fixed hops using your standardhop bucking and somethig permanently pressing down protruding through the barrel as a standrard hop has (most likey to be an oring as its soft and u can get differen sizes making my trial and error of finding which on will work best easier) 3 barrels is also a safety feaure. If one barrel doesnt feed then that barrel will have no BB in it, meaning the air will escape donw it far easier which will make the other 2 barrels fire there bbs at a really low power. True a mid cap would be easier and I may even use a mid cap. (Anyone selling a straight mid cap?) If you can manage the outer body, don't give up on this! It will give me needed faith in humanity! If the trishot system doesn't work inside, you can use single shot and pretend it's frag rounds, the preferred ammunition of Hail Caesar. Good luck! The outer body will be just for show more or less, so shouldnt pose much of a problem, if I get that far and the body is more or less perfect, i will paint it black, if it has imperections, I will go for a camo colour scheme as it will hide them better! I could quite easily modify my M4 to look like a AA12, but it would in no way be a AA12. At least with my minigun (which is essentially an M4 with a body kit) it has an increased rate of fire and a huge ammo capacity (and of course super cool spinning barrels and all round bad *albatross* looks!) So that being said for an airsoft AA12 to be of any worth (imo) it needs to be multishot. Quick question for anyone that knows about electronics and batteries etc: we all know that if you use a 9.6v as opposed to an 8.4v (of same mah) you get a higher rof. My question is can I lower it to 7.2v to get a lower rof? what about 6v? Basically I want to get around 5-10rps but for my AEG to still function as it should and hopefully just dropping volage will do this for me! Link to post Share on other sites
WestyIII Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 VN stanag mag for the midcap? Fixed hop is a good idea. With the nozzles, I meant how are you going to attach 3 nozzles to one mechbox? Would put a lot of strain on the tappet plate, and I can imagine feeding may become an issue. With misfeeds, in a linked airsystem, could create problems, as the air pressure will move down the barrel of least resistance, fps will drop, and if there is a jam fps will rise. I'm intrigued, because I toyed with this idea but it never left my head! Link to post Share on other sites
Murdoc Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 That body looks rounded, I would suggest using PVC/PUR foam and laminate(much simpler to make that PVC). When finished outside, you can remove the core... You can incorporate, an AR plastic body so that you can fix the gearbox more easily(similar at my bullpup). Nice project BTW! Link to post Share on other sites
heroshark Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 You could try using a Tri-shot barrel assembly, hop, feed and the front end of a Tri-cylinder modded onto an aeg nozzel. If you added a cage around the front end of the gb supporting the nozzel in runners it might work . Link to post Share on other sites
Meathead316 Posted September 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 The one part of the whol internals i am worried about the most is the nozzles/feed system and the strain it will put on the tappet plate so i have to make it in such a way that the nozzle dont have to push too hard to push the bbs into their barrels. As for leaks im not 100% sure and will cross that bridge when i come to it VN midcap? how many rounds? The thing you have to remember is if i got a 60 round midcap, thats actually only 20 shots.... I recently used foam pvc to make a hicap for my tri-shot, the stuff is so easy to work with and i cut all parts with a craft knife! but i fear it wont be strong enough to mak a whole gun out of... when you say "laminate" what do you mean? The gearbox will stay in its M4 body most likely but thats waaaaay off yet. Anyways today i carried out some tests (nothing too fancy just power comparison and the 1 cylinder sharing its air concept) Basically what i did was buy some felt tip pens and made small barrels out of them, i then use a piece of cotton to stop a bb falling out of the end. This end was then secured (leak free) to the end of my spring powered single shot shotgun (300fps) and a bb was then dropped in and fired. now with the barrel being 4 inches long and a loose fit (7mm) with no hop to speak of, the bb still traveled almost 100ft. I then made 3 more identicle pen barrels and taped them toether to form a triangle. I then fashioned a 3-1 adapter and attached it to my gun, loaded each barrel with a bb and fired, hey presto hey all flew out at the same velocity, albeit it less thatn the single barrel. Also worth noting, while in the 3-barrel setup i loaded only 2 barrels with bbs leaving 1 barrel empty, i then pulled the trigger and the bbs went barely 15ft... so a misfeed will definatly not make the weapon hot. tomorrow i will attach my tri barrel to my r700 (400fps) and my dragunoz (almost 500fps) to see how the added power reflects on bb distance. I am fully aware that i will not be able to use this to snipe any body with, and that is not the purpose of a shotgun, the idea of this project is to make a weapon that makes cqb players poop them selves, and something to provide surpressing fire with. Anyone wanna sell me an M4? Link to post Share on other sites
Meathead316 Posted September 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Hero shark your post just popped up as i was typing my last reply... I think it would be easiest to use an already proven setup from a tri shot, but it may end up costing more unless i can get one for cheap, anyone have a broken one?? (could also be an M203) Link to post Share on other sites
heroshark Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 You could try an sa58 1000 rnd hicap there about the right size. Link to post Share on other sites
Avenger96 Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Use a Thompson mag, and add a plastic shell the make it look like 12 gauge. They slide in the same, so. Link to post Share on other sites
ED-SKaR Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 If you're using a tri-barrels, and that's a really good idea, there are two parts that require movement. 1, the tri-nozzle (as you'd expect) and you should be able to connect that to the tappet plate as the movement is the same. 2 the BB loading arm. Slightly more complex, and it requires the timing to be correct. This part rations off 3 BBs, and then pushes them up to the breach. Then, most importantly, the top of the loading arm sits in the centre of the tri-hop and prevents the BBs from misfeeding and cracking the nozzles. You could use an "electric bowback" gearbox (or rig up your own) to connect the pistons movement to the loading arm. So long as you got the timings right, it would work fine. Link to post Share on other sites
Meathead316 Posted September 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 noooooooooooooooooooooooo!!! i had my reply typed and my 1 year old pulled the power cable out!! Anyways... Thompson mags look like they could work. In fact I have just had a genius idea, two thompson midcaps back to back, then when one runs out, flip it round and reinsert! man i even amaze myself sometimes! 1- 3 nozzles ftw! 2 - Aaaah yes, the feeding arm. I was first made aware of this little beastie yesterday when i took my m203 apart. If i recall correctly the bbs feed from the top of the barrels, so im hoping that as mine will be fed from the bottom it wont be needed as an arm which needs to be precise will be a royal pain in the *albatross* and more to potentially go wrong.... but i wont know until i get a trishot and have a play. As for nozzles to begin with i will make simple nozzles out of whatever but the corrct size just to practise feeding with and withiut the fear of cracking a £6 per piece nozzle. Today I played with my little pen barrel thingies using my sniper rifles. The almost 500fps dragunov sent the bbs with no hop and loose barrels about as far as a single bb from my spring shotgun with hop. so i recon a 450-500fps spring will be what i require when all is said and done. Thats all for today, still after donar guns, and for cheap! Im hoping to spend about £40 on a trishot and £70 on an M4/M16. remember i need no mags or accessories with these and they can be cosmetically garbage! Link to post Share on other sites
ED-SKaR Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 I still say you should buy one of the chinese M3s (£50-£80??) and use the nozzles, breach, hop, barrels and loading arm from it. Why fiddle making something complex when it already exists. The loading arm is UTTERLY VITAL. Both the M3 and SPAS have the mags at the bottom so they feed up into the breach. The loading arm rations out 3 BBs, thats quite important to make it shoot properly, it also pushes the BBs up into the breach, a job normally done by other BBs in a normal AEG, but you can't do it that way or it will jam. It also sits in the middle of the breach and prevents missfeeds. using a tribarreled system is the easiest way to go as 80% of it is right there pre-made for you, you'd need to link up the tri-nozzels to the tappet plate, would take some doing but not that bad, and make the pistons movement activate the loading arm, again, take some doing but not that difficult. Link to post Share on other sites
Meathead316 Posted September 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 Right, had another look at the parts from a trishot required to make it work. This combined with Ed-Skar's input has made me come to the decsion that the existing trishot system will not marry all that well with an aeg. I think it could be joined together ok, the nozzles would be easiest, the loading arm would be a right pain as even a blowback aeg doesnt recoil as much as the pump moves on a spring shottie, but even if that did work, the loading arm needs to push the bbs quite hard, and a little motor driven thingy isnt gonna have the same strength as manual pumping. so the airsoft AA12idea is now dead in the water..... But, as quickly as i relaised it would work thsi way, i had a light bulb moment. An outer barrel with an inside diameter of 25mm will fit the 3 barrels side by side, this way i just have to duplicate the simple standard feed system of an aeg for each barrel (custom jobbie as it will have to be all slimmed down) and with them being side by side i will have access to the tops of each barrel making an adjustable hop possible. and to prevent jams and a complex feeding system, the mag will also be custom, and will be more liek 3 mags in one, a seperate mag for each barrel. so i am no longer after a spring shottie, but i am still after a metal gearboxed M4/M16 (for cheap!!!) and 2 spare barrels. This is easily the best and most simplest method i believe and i cant wait to get hold of an AEG to test it out!!! (some one make me an offer i cant refuse!) Link to post Share on other sites
ED-SKaR Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 The loading arm needs, what, an inch of movement? It doesn't use the entire movement of the action arms. If I had a reason to open up the shotgu I'd take a picture of the notch for you.... its all of an inch, much less than the movement of the piston. Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 I'm not too sure if the loading arm on the TM tri-shot system is even required. Other than keeping the chambered bbs in place, I think their real purpose is simply to scoop up all bbs to be usable considering a shell only holds ten shots worth. Without that arm, the 4th bb in line will effectively push the 3 before it in place and if you design the tri-nozzle to have a sloped protrusion aligned at the 4th bb, it would just push it back down and not cause a jam. Link to post Share on other sites
Meathead316 Posted September 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 hhhmmm interesting, I thought about having the nozzles be angled to push bbs, but came to the conclusion that a trishot feed system will stll be a pain in the *albatross* whether it be modding a tri shot one or building one from scartch and that a side by side triple mag approach will be the easiest method by far. Also... Good news, i think i have secured a suitable donar gun, a JG G3 RAS, has a v2 metal gearbox so in theory is all lined up the same as an m4, except the trigger which is longer/lower but im sure i can either swap the trigger out for an m4 one or mod the existing one. if you see any reason why a G3 wont work, then post ASAP as i plan on paying for said gun by 5pm *off topic* whats that quote in your sig from renegadecow? Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 As said by Jefe in Three Amigos. Link to post Share on other sites
vorpalbunnie Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 This is a very stupid idea, but an idea nonetheless. In the past I've thought about using 3 gearboxes, but it wouldn't work because of the space they take up. And feeding is an issue, and weight. So what if you use all that nice space in the stock by putting a piston there, and use some type of tubing to transfer the airflow to the actual "loading chamber." (3 pistons, 3 motors, 3 tubes or 1 larger piston, 1 motor, a tube that splits into 3 or 4 smaller tubes.) It would function similar to a classic airsoft gun, with the air power being moved through tubes, but the compression is done in a gearbox like with AEGs. That's my crazy idea. Problems of course being keeping an airtight seal with the tubes and the feeding. Slightly modified crazy idea: use the same system as a NBB pistol, but with a gearbox instead of gas (that would be hard). But using that plan eliminates need for tappet plate. Link to post Share on other sites
MotoSam Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Just extend an air nozzle and split it into a trident configuration, to suit the three parallel hop ups and use one high FPS gearbox to fire. Link to post Share on other sites
Tsar Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 What about using a Polar Star GB? It could be programed to to release more air for the 3 barrels. Not cheap but it might work. Link to post Share on other sites
Meathead316 Posted September 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 3 gearboxes?!!! u mad?! I think im gonna stick to one gearbox, high power spring, high torque setup and low rof with a 3 way nozzle (unless it dont work!) Ive secured a gun now, a G3, just gotta pay for it and wait for it to get here. So I am now after: - 2 more standard barrels (long ones) - 2 more hop buckings - torque motor - 3 identical mid cap mags (preferably thompson ones) Does anyone know anything about batteries? and what the lowest voltage i can run an aeg off of is? I figure its the easiest way to lower rof Link to post Share on other sites
ED-SKaR Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 OK, new idea. Use a single gearbox, and a single barrel but use the loading mech from the marushin M500s. Essentially it has a short section behind the breach that rocks when you pump the gun, the tube lines up with the magazine and lets 3 8mm BBs, the ACM versions are 5 6mm BBs although mine loads 3 6mm BBs. You would still require the EBBs piston connection to activate the drum to rock down to the magazine and then it would spring back into place to load. Though you'd need to work on the timing so that the drum was in line with the barrel from the point the piston is released, Not too hard me thinks, and much easier to build a 3 barreled system from scratch. Link to post Share on other sites
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