Tinkerton Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 afternoon folks! Having recently aqquired an M60, and getting less inclined to do gearbox internal work, I'm looking to build the most reliable gearbox there has ever been. So far it's just a parts list, but I'm after advice from people who currently run or have run support guns for long periods of time. the gearbox in the M60 is the same as the A&K M249 gearbox, and as such uses V2 parts, apart from the tapper, nozzle and spring guide. I'm after a standard rate of fire, and will be using lipo's with deans connectors through a MOSFET. So, what longevity mods can I perform, and what parts will stand up to hundreds of thousands of rounds? I've heard good things about shs gears and lonex motors, but I've no idea what piston and piston head combo to go for... any suggestions? *may not actually be a million rounds, but will be a very large number. Link to post Share on other sites
Bachelarius Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 I do not run a support gun, but these mods are universal and apply just as much to an AEG as an AEP as a support gun. General rule-of-thumb - as of a few months ago, Lonex has become one of the more easily available upgrade parts that still have a high level of quality at a good price point. SHS didn't handle their sudden popularity as well as they could have, thus QC levels have dropped and their newer version gears are prone to bevel gear failures. They've slipped sadly. Gearbox case durability - Radius front corners [Tutorial] - Add sorbothane pad to the Cylinder head [Tutorial] Piston Durability - Lonex Red is currently considered as one of the finest on the market, Lonex blue is similar. - Lightening a piston is a good thing to do as it lowers the forces acting on the pickup tooth and speeds up piston return rate [Tutorial] [Example] - Use aforementioned sorbothane to correctly space the AOE [Tutorial] - Use a good, long lasting lubricant on the rails - eg superlube. - Have an easy way to re-lubricate the piston o-ring without having to strip the gearbox Gear Durability - Quality Solid Bushings (not brass!) fixed/glued/epoxied tightly into the case - Accurate Shimming using steel shims - Strong gears (Seigetek, Lonex, GE(JG), in order of awesome) - Matching Pinion Gear Material - Important to prevent wear - It's how marui last with such crappy materials - they use consistently crappy materials! - Again, use a good, long lasting lubricant on the gears - eg superlube. Mosfet - Consider using a quality mosfet, the one from Air-Lab.co.uk is probably one of the better ones on the market in the UK. Motor - Lonex is mostly good, though there have been some teething heat issues reported. Element and JG Neo motors are still fantastic though! All I can think of off the top of my head, this is the sort of stuff I tend to go for on pretty much every build I have Link to post Share on other sites
Tinkerton Posted October 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 That's the sort of stuff I'm after,cheers! With regards to bushings, a friend who I trust when it comes to internals recommended bearings instead as bushings can wear unevenly, have you heard anything like that before? also after recommendations for a brand of spring to go for that will hold its power for quite a while. Link to post Share on other sites
tome Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 I only ran a Star m249 for a short time but one AEG is quite a bit like another AEG I reckon if you keep the rate of fire "normal" around the 15 rps range and use a stock TM piston+spring set you should get a very long life out of the stock gearbox. Radiusing and shock absorbing materials probably won't make much of a difference at this power level, but use of high quality steel gearsets will help for sure. The thing that i've seen kill gearboxes most is high ROF because of the magnitude of forces required to make things move fast inside. Admittedly stock TM spring might be a bit weak for some but with the volume of fire from a box mag you can arc your stream of bbs Bushings are probably more likely to last than bearings. Less moving parts! Link to post Share on other sites
WhiteHawksan Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Sadly, an M60 doesn't use a standard TM gearbox, otherwise it'd be a breeze, buy TM gun, take internals, feed BB's 'til the cows come home Link to post Share on other sites
intinerious Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 For bushings if you're gonna go with Seigetek as Bachelarius suggested you need to look through Riot's manual to find the bushings that are fit for those gears; given that the Seigetek gear axles are really hard you'll be able to wear down your typical bushings like the brass ones. From my memory I believe the Modify Ceramics were the number 1 choice for Seigetek gears. Another thing about the motors is if you can disassemble the motors yourself; try sourcing a broken neo can motor (assuming it's only the armature's that's broken) and a non-broken DBOYS/Chaoli motor. Take the DBOYS armature and shove it into the neo can. The resulting motor has HUGE amounts of torque and pairing that up with a high speed gearset would allow you reasonable ROF (I think near 15-20s with 10:1s? I haven't really done a lot of research on the ROF output but it's not going to be really bad...at something like 10rps) and very good trigger response. The frankentorque motor would also fair well to prolonged suppression fire. I've shoved one of those frankentorque motors on a 13:1 gearset with a Modify S110+ (~1.5J) spring and held the trigger for 1 minute....the motor doesn't even get warm For piston lightening like what Bachelarius said, I would think it depends on what ammo you want to shoot. Generally as far as I understand if you're not hitting +30s you don't need to swiss-cheese the piston because pre-engagement isn't likely going to happen unless you're running the weakest AEG spring possible. If you're planning to shoot heavy ammo out of the gun a heavier piston is actually preferred to maximise the efficiency of the system. If you're going really high speed (40-50rps...which you shouldn't be anyway if you're going for a proper suppression weapon! ) then swiss cheesing the piston to prevent pre-engagement would be something you'll want to consider Hmmm anything else.....oh yeah get the biggest lipo you can with a reasonable mAh and C rating so that you can feed enough current for the motor to handle Though if you're running the frankentorque I don't think the current draw would be much unless your shimming's tight; but more mAh = more shots before the battery kaputs; and you get to suppress sweeping fields of enemies all day without worries Link to post Share on other sites
PureSilver Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Buy Polar Star. Run at 45rps for six hours. 1,000,000 rounds fired. Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Buy Polar Star. Run at 45rps for six hours. 1,000,000 rounds fired. Would seriously hate to lug around the tank to feed it. Not to mention the bbs. Link to post Share on other sites
bankz5152 Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Thats pretty impressive! Link to post Share on other sites
Tinkerton Posted October 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 they don't make a polar star for the m249 / m60 gearbox, and sadly I can't afford a daytona gun conversion. what motor should I be looking at if I don't want to try making one of the so called Franken torques? Link to post Share on other sites
PureSilver Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Would seriously hate to lug around the tank to feed it. Not to mention the bbs. A million .20s is only 200 metric tonnes of ammunition, what are you complaining about? It's for an M60 so he won't be carrying it around all the time, and besides, I imagine it would all fit in the death machine backpack project. they don't make a polar star for the m249 / m60 gearbox Ahem. Rubba']I've read that Polar Star has m249/m60 gear boxes for custom order. Any way to find out is this is true, and if so how to get one? Yes I am able to get the fusion engines for m249s. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klvQMTEwpqI Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 A million .20s is only 200 metric tonnes kilograms Fixed that for ya. Not that lifting 200kg is any easier though. Link to post Share on other sites
PureSilver Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 *Bangs head on desk* Got grammes confused with kilogrammes again. The one thing that surprises me is how gas efficient it is - apparently a 45/4500 HPA tank (that is, 45"3 at 4500psi) will shoot about 4,000 rounds at 110psi (Polar*'s happy anywhere between 80-120psi). Here's my working (mostly displayed at 2 s.f.) - see if it makes sense to you: If 45"3 of air at 4,500psi = 4000 shots, therefore 1 shot = 45 / 4000 = 0.01225"3 of air at 4,500psi 0.01225 x 1,000,000 = 11250"3 air at 4,500psi 11250"3 = 6.51l of air at 4,500psi 6.51'3 = 184.35l of air at 4,500psi (Incidentally, at about 372g per litre of air at 4,500psi, that's 68.57kg of air alone.) The largest commonly available scuba tank size capable of withstanding 4,500psi is 15l, so you'd need 13 cylinders to fire your million rounds. [EDIT]Oh - and to be a bit more helpful, Tinkerton, a 45/4500 tank (good for 4,000rds) is about the size of a regular paintball tank, the kind attached to the pistol grip.[/EDIT] Link to post Share on other sites
Baddbaz Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Have a look at pro Airsoft supplies video ! A g&g gun being tested to the max , handgrip got so hot it was uncomfortable to hold the gun . Says a lot for g&g internals nowadays .. Link to post Share on other sites
WhiteHawksan Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 if you want ultiamte reliablility, you're not gonna do better than the P* g&g don't make an M60 gearbox *facepalm* Link to post Share on other sites
Baddbaz Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Didn't say they make a m60 box but they do use v2 boxes in there m4 / 16 guns with very very strong gearsets in them !! And a m60 gearbox uses a lot of v2 parts in it . Link to post Share on other sites
Tinkerton Posted October 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 Ok, that's seriously impressive. I stand corrected. Where can I get one of those and how many of my organs will it cost? Also, where do you refill the hpa tanks from? Standard air compressor or would I need a special rig? Link to post Share on other sites
WhiteHawksan Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 you get them from PolarStar directly, they sell rigs, I believe you can refuil them at any scuba shop and if you turn yourself intoa sexual tyranosaurus, you can put the stuff in the backpack out the way AND have a whoop *albatross* tank. They're not all that dear either. $600 I think gets you the full shebang, including tank and whatnot. For that, you'll have a gun that runs forever, not bad eh? Link to post Share on other sites
Tinkerton Posted October 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 not bad, no. Still, its a heck of a lot more than a new set of gears, piston and head, cylinder head and bushings and motor... Link to post Share on other sites
WhiteHawksan Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 well yes, but you can convert other guns to HAP and still use the same rig. I've nary a clue what the stand-alone gearbox is, but it's a drop in replacement for a V2 and I believe there's a V3 as well or in development at any rate. Link to post Share on other sites
intinerious Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 what motor should I be looking at if I don't want to try making one of the so called Franken torques? Since you're hesitant with P*s, I guess I might as well continue assuming you're doing an electric gun build Basically just get a DBOYS motor (they're branded as Chaoli....OOTB they're ###### so I think you can find nearly brand new ones on the second hand market for cheap ) and get any of the ACM neo magnet cans (I used an Element Ultra Torque one ) and just switch the armatures and just use the neo can motor Link to post Share on other sites
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