Finbarqs Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) So I just received my 2012 viper MK18 Mod 0 rifle with full colt trades. Here are my initial impressions! (As some of you may know, I don't overlook the physical appearance details such as the 'forge-line' as many of you has pointed out..) Anyways, looking PAST the forging line, here are my impressions of the rifle! Yes the forging line is VERY minimal, and is barely there at all! (might as well get rid of it!!!!) So what I currently have: 2 GHK's (AKM and a PDW ver. 3) 2 Inokatsu's: 2009 and 2011, and now a Viper 2012. I was completely expecting an inokatsu, but higher build quality, but I'm wrong. I'll try to be as objective as possible, and list my subjections for you guys to take away. Externals and physical aspects of the gun It's black, maybe a really jet dark black. Not quite as 'charcoal' as my ino 2011, but a bit 'shinier' than my 2009. re-anodizing should fix this without any issues. The trademarks, though obviously engraved, doesn't look as good as inokatsu's. Not to say they are bad, but just not as convincing (a subjection of mine) as inokatsu. Granted, I don't like Dom at all for being a 'snake' in the business, his externals looks better (i'd say marginally, though viper does better in other areas than inokatsu) Both externals use 6061 but we don't know if it's T6 or not. The pins are flush against the receiver on Viper, which is a huge plus. The receiver is also perfectly flush against each other, which inokatsu 2011 has a small gap in between. Holding a real AR-15 (haven't held a full modern colt AR-15), the gap exists, about the same amount as Inokatsu's. The factory stock from viper (which is a LMT clone of the Gen. 2) wobbles A LOT. It seems that the buffer tube is *slightly* smaller than Inokatsu's as when I put on a real LMT Gen 2 sopmod stock on my Inokatsu, it's 99% solid with very little wobble. Putting it on my Viper I'd say it's about 85%. Factory is close to 60% -- kind of annoying. Since a member of the gasguns forum has my 6920 upper receiver, I can't compare the brass deflector. But I have to say, I think Viper's brass deflector is CLOSER to the actual shape of the brass deflector of the colt upper receiver. But there are no forging marks on viper's upper receiver One thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is the dust cover: viper is light grey, inokatsu is dark grey. The Colt 6920 upper receiver is dark grey like the inokatsu. I'm guessing because Viper's using a M16A1 lower receiver, they feel that they need to make the flattop receiver "old school" but putting that light grey color on the dust cover. The weird part about it is that no part on this gun has that "light grey" color anywhere. The inokatsu's dust cover matches the outer barrel, which is a dark dull grey finish. Speaking of the outer barrle, Viper's outer barrel is darker than inokatsu's. If you never owned both rifles before, you may say that viper's outer barrel is grey. But seeing it right next to inokatsu's it's flat black. This is a preference thing, as I don't have the real Colt M4 rifle: I prefer inokatsu's outer barrel finish. Also, the FSB on Inokatsu's seems to be more accurately portrayed -- on the trademarks. On viper it's almost perfectly CNC machined to precision letters and numbers. Inokatsu is less perfect like the real colt FSB (I Just bought a real Colt FSB with the same bayonet lug!) I can't compare the RIS system, as Inokatsu uses a RAS. This viper uses a RIS (with the odd numbering on the rail grooves and the flat head screw in front of the RIS). But comparing the feel, it feels like Viper's machined the RIS to perfection. Ino is a little smoother and not as refined on the RAS, but that's probably because it's a RAS vs. RIS. I have a real KAC RAS, and it's even smoother to feel than the inokatsu. I'd viper and ino is very close in feel, but KAC's actual RAS is very very smooth, and has a slight magenta/blue coloring to it. Both Inokatsu and Viper are jet black. So in this instance, I have NO preference as to which is better. They both are just different, with viper being a little more machined to precision. The selector on both guns are different. Not just because Viper uses a M16A1 lower receiver - thus the selector does NOT have a indicator mark on the opposte side, but it's slightly shorter. Looking at pictures of actual M16A1's the selector's tail protrudes a little on the 'semi' mode. Viper's a little short. Inokatsu replicated this length with the M4A1 properly (using my 2011 as a comparative standard). Also, Viper's selector is closer to 90 degrees than my 2011 inokatsu, when locked into position. And there's another difference: The feel of the selector: Viper has more resistance when changing firing modes: Inokatsu moves very smoothly. Though they they lock into place, both guns has different personality's as well: Viper on Auto is SOLID. There is NO play what so ever. However, it looks as if it moved above the 90 degree mark slightly. on Semi, there's a little bit of play, and on safe, it will NOT hold the 90 degree angle. It can, but the selector will just drop down 5 degrees, letting you know there's play in that selector -- and it's not as tight as can be, though it feels pretty tight when you change the firing modes. On the Inokatsu, every firing mode has play, but not as loose as viper's on 'safe'. It's mushy, but it usually will hold it's position once in place. On the Inokatsu, (2011), the selector will bob in and out as you change firing modes as well, while the Viper looks pretty solid. The 2009 doesn't bob either, like the viper. Pulling back on the charging handle has a little more resistance than factory inokatsu 2011. However, Viper will not go as far back into the buffer tube as Inokatsu's will. I'm trying to see if there's a way to get Viper's to go all the way back, but it seems that the gas key is blocking the full entry into the buffer tube. Both guns has the gas tube going all the way into the receiver -- nice! Bolt catch: They feel different on both guns. Viper's bolt catch has a detent spring giving you a stronger resistance constantly even when the carrier is not locked back. The angle feels slightly lower than Inokatsu's, and neither is as grand as RA-Tech's bolt catch! It's practically 35-40 degrees out when locked! Viper's bolt catch system feels much more consistent, more engineered. Inokatsu's feels... more mechanical, and very simplistic. Shooting and Performance One thing that viper does great at is shooting. More reliably than inokatsu! That's because they have probably one of the best Hop Up systems in the GBBR Magna World (after my request to find the "best" hop up in the WA World...) My inokatsu hop up rubber ripped about 3k firing, and replacing thread adapter. So I replaced it with a Viper Hop up unit! But Recoil: I'd say both are pretty comparable. They sound different, however. When Inokatsu's bcg slams forward, it sounds a bit closer to a real AR15. Viper's sound a bit deeper with a 'Thup'. Perhaps that's because Inokatsu's hammer actually hits the fake firing pin (90 degrees -- will make that ping sound) while viper stays back. But after the upgrades, they both perform right around the same area. Reliability and cool down was the key here, and both did great! (now my Ino has viper upgrades lol) But one thing REALLY bothered me. Viper came with these AWESOME EB mags. Awesome recoil, and really heavy! (Heavier than pro wins and GHK's, and probably WA's.. probably the heaviest magna mag I have!) Viper works wonders on EB. However, throw in a Pro Win ver. 2, though it still works, the bcg will NOT lock back for the life of me. Throw in my GHK CO2, and same thing. BCG will not lock back! WTF! It only works with EB Mags? This was VERY annoying to me. My inokatsu worked with any magna mag I threw at it! EB, Pro-Win, G&P, WA, you name it, it'll do it! Anyways, they're both great guns, OOTB and reliability, Viper has it. But straight OOTB, I'd give it to Inokatsu as it'll shoot awesome also (well mine did) and looks and feels closer to an actual AR15. But with Inokatsu's bad reputation created by Dom, Viper is the one that'll last. Both are great guns. subjectively, I'd say Inokatsu is the rifle that'll look and feel closer to it's counter part. But both guns can be made to be closer to the real thing, but cosmetically, I'd give inokatsu the light edge. If a Real colt M4/AR15 (emphasis on 'Colt') is 100%, I'd give Ino's fit/feel/impression 90%. Viper I'd say 88%. But then again, that's pretty subjective, take that for what you will, but I hope I'm objective enough for you guys! Edited October 30, 2012 by Finbarqs Quote Link to post Share on other sites
royami Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 Where did you bought 2012 version with colt trades ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finbarqs Posted November 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 where are you located? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finbarqs Posted November 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 here are some pictures of the comparison between the 2 rifles: viper doesn't lock back all the way when you insert a mag inokatsu locks back all the way Viper M16A1 trademarks Inokatsu M4A1 trademarks Inokatsu Dust Cover color Viper's Dust Cover color color of the outer barrel. Viper's short selector Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finbarqs Posted November 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 here's a quick video Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DesertFox Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Did you ever get the viper bolt lock working with other mags like ghk mags? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DesertFox Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Did you ever get the viper bolt lock working with other mags like ghk mags? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finbarqs Posted November 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 nope, never did. I suspect it's the bolt catch and the bolt carrier itself. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DesertFox Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Thanks for the answer, damn that's a deal breaker for me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finbarqs Posted November 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 It's a pretty big deal... especially when it only works with EB mags. But a bolt catch swap, and BCG swap, and the replacement of the rear buffer spacer shouldn't be too hard to replace... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cavapanther Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 It's odd that viper only work with EB mags considering it is a WA pattern rifle. Do you know the reason to that and any feasible fix to make it work with prowin? I'm actually looking to buy a new GBBR and looks like viper is the one, but previously I have used G&P WOC and I have left with nearly 20 prowin mags... so I need to make sure the next gun I buy will work with those magazines. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finbarqs Posted December 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2012 (edited) The only reason why Viper doesn't work with other's is because they altered the bolt catch and the carrier from spec. Thus, it is short stroked. I haven't ordered a new BCG, and a bolt catch... but I figure BCG, catch, and buffer spacer, it'll do the trick. I'm going to test that out... The only that doesn't work is the way bolt catch. It'll run on Pro Win and GHK's, just not with it catching the BCG. Edited December 30, 2012 by Finbarqs Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TB-Stalker Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 AHA! Thought I would share this as I have recently stumbled across it almost by luck. Viper Tech have released this video: http://youtu.be/F0tuqzo_k-Y Showing how the Viper works with GHK CO2 Mags, from there I then found this article: http://www.gasguns.info/?p=85 This shows a new hammer spring and bolt stop assembly which means that the system is no longer short stroked and the bolt stop will work with WA, Prime and GHK Mags!! Plus, if you look here: http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/viper-tech-m4a1-moe-gbb-steel-version.html http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/other-gun/gas-blow-black-rifle/viper-tech/viper-tech-m4a1-ras-gbb-rifle-2011-steel-version.html http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/other-gun/gas-blow-black-rifle/viper-tech/viper-tech-m4a1-gbb-rifle-2011-steel-version.html This shows that the new Magpul Viper and the M4A1 2011 steel versions come with this as standard. I don't know about everyone else, but this makes me very happy! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finbarqs Posted January 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2013 The ehobby Asia guns are 2011, except for the sr series. And according to viper care you would need mod the mags. Vipers are still short stroked. Factory will only work with eb. This is a customer confirming this, not a 'viper' marketing video! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TB-Stalker Posted January 1, 2013 Report Share Posted January 1, 2013 The ehobby Asia guns are 2011, except for the sr series. And according to viper care you would need mod the mags. Vipers are still short stroked. Factory will only work with eb. This is a customer confirming this, not a 'viper' marketing video! Ah ok thanks for the tip, do you know how to mod the mags? As I need the GHK ones for here as it gets cold in the winter! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
levirocks Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 What are the differences between the 2011 and 2012 versions? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jal3 Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 Why this focus on reproducing the "correct" shades on the surface treatment? RS weapons are just machining parts with surface treatment against wear. They come in dozens of random shades of grey/black. You can't really match a color because there's no certain original RS color. It doesn't help either that the color tones change a lot depending on how they're photographied. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BaBaBooey Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 Why this focus on reproducing the "correct" shades on the surface treatment? RS weapons are just machining parts with surface treatment against wear. They come in dozens of random shades of grey/black. You can't really match a color because there's no certain original RS color. It doesn't help either that the color tones change a lot depending on how they're photographied. Airsoft is looks first: how close it looks to the real counterpart is just as important is how it functions. How close something looks to the real thing is the subjective part - you might think it's fine, but to others it's just wrong. When it comes to "retro" Colt AR's, I admit I am a snob and things like finish, proof markings, etc. mean a great deal to me. On retro AR's, the finish Colt used on almost every part of the rifle, as far as I know, was generally known as XM Gray. It's very distinctive compared to the finish that Colt currently uses...so a black M-16A1 receiver might be fine for 99% of the world, but just looks wrong to me. Hope that makes sense... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finbarqs Posted January 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 agreed. Except now, I replaced the dust cover with a real DPMS dust cover. It just looked way off. Compared to a modern M16-A1 (or the newest model), the dust cover should be flat black/grey. And that sparkly receiver doesn't really help either. But the smoothness of operation is still probably the best out of all GBB-R's. there literally is no resistance for the carrier to travel back and forth. It slams forward at full force, unlike my ino's. On my Ino's it feels like something is impeding it's travel. It's not as smooth as vipers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jal3 Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 You didn't read more than the first line of my post. Whatever. I'll come back when you treat it as airsoftguns rather than deacts Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BaBaBooey Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 (edited) I'll try to clarify my initial post: Why this focus on reproducing the "correct" shades on the surface treatment? Airsoft means different things to different people and has a broad definition. Just because one person feels that surface treatment is important doesn't mean it's wrong or is somehow "not airsoft". RS weapons are just machining parts with surface treatment against wear. They come in dozens of random shades of grey/black. You can't really match a color because there's no certain original RS color. The lower that VIPER tries to replicate is a property marked Colt M16A1 lower that was made between 1968 and 1970. It even replicates the correct serial number range of 5,000,000. During this time, there is documented proof that Colt consistently used one type of hard coat anodization that resulted in a gray finish that we commonly refer to as "XM Gray". The finish on the steel components were also finished with this color - this is what is generally accepted as the "correct" color if the complete weapon was Colt assembled and proof marked from that era. Of course once it is issued, all bets are off. On a side note, although not perfect, a professional anodizer can match the resulting color of the finish. I gave my NDS M16A1 lower and Colt XM Gray upper to US Anodizing and they perfectly matched the color of the finish between the original factory Colt upper and NDS lower. Hope that made more sense. Edited January 4, 2013 by BaBaBooey Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finbarqs Posted January 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 US Anodizing cannot replicate the color perfectly as it uses different materials as well too. Older m16a1's I believe did use 'xm grey' but the one u mentioned became flat black. As per US Anodizing, 6061-T6 anodizes differently than 7075-T6 which currently (allegedly) only Inokatsu 2009 was made out of. 7075-T6 has a thicker coating as well too. It's quite nice actually. Currently, only Inokatsu and viper uses forged aluminum receivers. Viper has the edge on externals (with a bad finish) as they use 6061-T6 (hoping it is T6) while 2011 Ino uses 6061 with an unknown temper. If real sword ever came out with their at series, hopefully they'll really use 7075-T6 and really have a truly accurate receiver set. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DesertFox Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2qspmfC_iY Wonder if this means the newer viper will be able to have a functioning bolt catch with most wa mags now? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finbarqs Posted January 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 crossing my fingers... but if it's just the bolt assembly, it could be just that... the catch needs to be changed as well... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
L2E Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 Got my 2012 Viper with COLT trades last week and it is by far the best operating WA based weapon I have ever owned or fired. The Ino may be more authentic but doesn't perform nearly as well as the Viper. First thing I did was fill the EB mag, ProWin version 2 mag and load a caplet into the GHK C02 mag. EB performed perfectly as expected. ProWin was a little sluggish on full auto and DID NOT lock back on empty. GHK C02 was a BEAST and locked back on empty. I have a G&P PMAG that I forgot to test. The issue with the ProWin is that the entire mag sits considerably lower when compared to the GHK and EB thus the bolt catch never even touches the magazine arm that indicates bb's are out. What sux is I have a TON of ProWin mags that are essentially useless unless I want to switch out my GFPA (not likely). Just comparing the G&P Mag to GHK C02 mag, it looks like it will lock back as well as the follower arm is equally high compared to GHK. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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