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PTW clones( DTW A&K etc)


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yes... they arrived at the wholesalers late on friday and Airsoftglobel noiced the new model on the wholesalers facebook and swiftly took advantage ;)
they should appear on other HK retialers throughout this week as they catch up.

5 new DTW upgraded models avalable, under the title "Max3"

Max-3 Upgraded model includes a Super ECU, Steel Stock tube cap, PTW compatible receiver, Inner barrel, and Hop-up unit.

And Super ECU is programable 2 to 30rd burst.

 

Speical ops...

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MK18 Mod1 7.5 inch
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MK18 Mod1 9.5 inch

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MK18 Mod1 9.5 inch with tan RAS

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and a M16A4

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I'm not going to strip the cylinder and hop yet (later tonight). This is just a quick look at the cylinder, hop and barrel and the externals of the gearbox.   The Cylinder is blue anodised and well

It always amazes me the way people think that because the Systema is $1500 it's actually worth $1500. Do you really think it costs Systema more than a couple of hundred dollars to make? Do you think

ok on with the rest of part 2.   I had a look at the gearbox and electrics today. Some good news and some bad news but to keep you in suspense I'll put the bad news nearer the bottom. No sneak peeki

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Both of my DTW's are now sold. Final conclusion from me, TW are nice, but....ultimately I think they're too technical for their own good. There's too much that can wrong on these things, and given the price of parts (even the clone rifles) they are too expensive to run. Now, before the pro TW gang start telling me the cost of parts, you need to take my statement in context....the context being, an overview of the airsoft product range. Ultimately, TW do not offer a user anything that they can't get elsewhere, considerably cheaper....both in terms of initial outlay and maintenance.

 

The final point, these TW (all of them!!!) are too fragile. The amount of people who have reiterated the point of 'do not go full auto with a TW, they're not made for it, just stick with semi or you'll burn out your motor', was the final nail in the coffin. I'm not a trigger spam player, and using gbbr's I know how to control my trigger finger. However, with gbbr's you don't go full auto because of ammo restrictions, with TW, it seems it's more to do with the life of your motor......fail.

 

So having lived the dream, I feel that the end of the dance has come, and I can close the book on TW. They're lovely products, and my hat goes off to those who can / want to afford to keep them, but I think there are much better products out there for airsoft play....

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I dare you to find the equivalent airsoft rifle with the same instant trigger response, quick fps adjustment (without any tools), stop firing on empty mag and the fps consistency OOB below the DTW/A&K TW/Airo TW price.

 

Maybe some of these are not important to you, but saying that all these features can be found for less is bs.

 

And since I sense where you're going to go -- let's include the cost of magazines and let's focus on the fps consistency. I've been out of the GBBR world for a while now, but last time I checked there was only one affordable gas platform delivering decent fps consistency -- gen1 KJW M4 and even that would be twice the price of the DTW if you count up the mags. Everything else (again at comparable to *TW prices) had such the wild fps fluctuations that hopup was useless. 

 

So, beat this: http://www.airsoftglobal.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=21_374&products_id=17123 on price and the features listed above and we'll talk how *TW don't offer user anything that can't be found for considerably less, especially in terms of initial price.

 

PS. The gbbrs are lovely products and I envy people who can afford to spend often 2x the money of the real steel AR15 on them, but they're much better products for the airsoft play.

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Oh, if anyone has that MAX3 DTW in hand I'd be especially curious to confirm that it is indeed Systema receivers compatible and find out how well it works with the PTW PTS PMAGs and EMAGs and to see the photos of the new mosfet, I hope it's tiny now so that the battery can fit into the stock tube.

 

Nath, maybe you can post a review when yours come in.

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i have 5 on hand... sadly none are mine,...
well, one will be mine tonight... for a very limited time... as i will covert to semi only to ship to NZ in the morning. ;)
But nor do i have a systema body to compare with.
 

Although the manufacturer are pushing the upgraded facts... so i would think they would have tested it before making such a claim.
Also, G&D have release a DTW Body for sale which i was keen on my self, to make a sniper upper for my CQB M4,... until i was told its a "new" body is for the "new PTW compatible" models. EG: Pin holes have been moved, which would not fit my old original early model DTW. So i would have to buy 2 bodies to make a quick change upper.

Airsoft Murphy's law at its finest. =/

in hindsight i wish i had waited for these newer models,...although this isn't a problem that can't be overcome, (anyone have a spare DTW upper they not want? lol)

nether the less....  this at least shows the G&D are working on improvements and upgrades to improve there models.
and this latest models (with everything now being compatable) seem to be a great step in the right direction.
 

 

 

 

 

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For once, I have to agree with INQ, the only thing putting me off these new TW clones is reliability, semi or auto, doesnt matter,I want my platform to be reliable... are these new DTW reliable? hope so... -_-U

 

BTW, anybody knows is someone is going to clone the rotatory hop chamber which can be adjusted withouttools or taking the mag out?

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Oh, if anyone has that MAX3 DTW in hand I'd be especially curious to confirm that it is indeed Systema receivers compatible and find out how well it works with the PTW PTS PMAGs and EMAGs and to see the photos of the new mosfet, I hope it's tiny now so that the battery can fit into the stock tube.

 

Nath, maybe you can post a review when yours come in.

When I lay hands on mine I'll do some internal pr0n, no sweat :).

 

On the TW vs GBBR-both got it's pros, both got cons (in tw-the motor and electronic parts, in gbbr that is parts wear and gas consumption). Everyone his poison I suppose.

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I dare you to find the equivalent airsoft rifle with the same instant trigger response, quick fps adjustment (without any tools), stop firing on empty mag and the fps consistency OOB below the DTW/A&K TW/Airo TW price.

 

Maybe some of these are not important to you, but saying that all these features can be found for less is bs.

 

And since I sense where you're going to go -- let's include the cost of magazines and let's focus on the fps consistency. I've been out of the GBBR world for a while now, but last time I checked there was only one affordable gas platform delivering decent fps consistency -- gen1 KJW M4 and even that would be twice the price of the DTW if you count up the mags. Everything else (again at comparable to *TW prices) had such the wild fps fluctuations that hopup was useless. 

 

So, beat this: http://www.airsoftglobal.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=21_374&products_id=17123 on price and the features listed above and we'll talk how *TW don't offer user anything that can't be found for considerably less, especially in terms of initial price.

 

PS. The gbbrs are lovely products and I envy people who can afford to spend often 2x the money of the real steel AR15 on them, but they're much better products for the airsoft play.

 

Well, to be honest, I wasn't necessarily stating that GBBR are an all round better option than a TW....in fact, if you asked me to select a better option I would say a standard AEG......WTF?!?! REALLY???......yep, really?

 

Ok, so you say a TW gives you great trigger response, consistant FPS, quick adjustment of FPS and stops firing on last shot. I'm gonna call you out on the "consistant FPS", remember, I owned two DTW's, and the FPS wasn't tragically all over the place, but it was no more or less consistant than my G&G top techs....so I'm gonna discount that as a benefit over a "normal" AEG.

 

As far as the other aspects you mention, I know I can get some of those things from a standard AEG, but maybe not all of them in a single package...however, look at what can I get from a recoil engine? And now we have the KWA ERG coming in (cheaper than the TM recoil gun) I get fairly great trigger response, recoil simulation, stops firing on last shot....but, not the quick change out of FPS.

 

But here's the thing, and this is why I said you have to take my point in context. In the UK the FPS limit is pretty consistantly set for 350fps (for an assault rifle), once you get your gun set to 350fps, you'd not want to mess with it....so at least in the UK this feature of switching fps is of severly limited value.

 

The trigger response on a TW is awesome, and much better than most standard AEG's you can buy out of the box (you'll notice I'm not even talking about GBBR here), but when you couple that awesome trigger response with the relatively delicate nature of TW I'm happy (me personally) to live with the slight delay a standard AEG offers, coupled with considerably more robustness......on a normal AEG I can switch to full auto without changing my underwear and remortgaging my home!!

 

Ultimately, there's no need to get upset. I was simply giving my report on TW's (DTW's to be exact) based on ownership. I'm not saying that the rifle is rubbish or that it doesn't have a place in airsoft.....FOR ME, it doesn't make sense. If it makes sense for you, then have at it. G&D et al. won't stop producing TW's becasue they lost me as a customer. 

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For once, I have to agree with INQ, the only thing putting me off these new TW clones is reliability, semi or auto, doesnt matter,I want my platform to be reliable... are these new DTW reliable? hope so... -_-U

 

BTW, anybody knows is someone is going to clone the rotatory hop chamber which can be adjusted withouttools or taking the mag out?

I agree with inq as well . Chimera , ASCu mosfets will give empty mag stop as well as amazing trigger response if teamed up with a neo motor and decent wiring . Tw are designed to be training weopons more than full on skirmish weopons . So fail for me on that aspect . Yes they are nice to look at and hold . But way too expensive to maintain and run on a regular reliable basis . With the dtw its almost like buying a systema in instalments . Are components made this weak as they know you will have to upgrade as you go along .

If someone hits the market with a 1/1 external shell . That takes standard aeg parts . I will buy . Untill that day I refuse to get dragged into this expensive stop gap.

Fps consistancy can be had with decent components / qc by the manufacturers . Take real sword guns as a prime example . The trigger response can be matched with the latest mosfets . Fire rate and reliability can be had with the Lonex Titan motors . All that is needed is a decent shell to assemble it all into ..

Maybe we should start a real sword m16/4 petition to get them released .,

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But in fairness to Stan-O, he's talking about an 'unmdified' product, straight out of the box. Adding and ASCU etc is all modification work that needs to be done to make the gun do (possibly) what a TW can do.

 

That said, given the relatively inexpensive modifications that you have to make to get the AEG up to TW standard, and there after have a very robust playing platform, I think the benefits of making that effort outweighs any percieved benefits of what a TW gives you out of the box.

 

And I think Baddbaz is correct, you are literally buying a PTW in installments. You don't have to, you can replace parts that break with DTW parts, but what happens when the basic DTW parts are not great, say the hop unit for instance....well, you don't have much choice, you can either buy a CTW part or go all out and get a PTW part....I ended up buying the PTW part (Hop unit, outer barrel, inner barrel, sight post, fake gas block, etc etc) and it was half again the cost of the basic gun!!

 

Where I disagree with Baddbaz is in the point that the TW is designed to be a training weapon. I don't think it is....again, it's too fragile to be a serious training aid. More to the point, it doesn't mimick enough of what a real rifle does to make it a serious training aid? So it stops firing on last shot, but does it imitate follow up shot accuracy due to recoil on full auto (apart from it doesn't like full auto!)? does it simulate charging handle usage? or the function of forward assist? all these things which you would expect a training weapon to offer. The answer is no. As a training weapon even a recoil gun is more useful.....GBBR being the most realistic training option available (IMHO).

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The interesting innovation when it finally arrives will be the gbox . From g&g . This does simulate charging handle , empty mag stop , mosfets , tightbore , tool less fps changes , barrel changes , motor changes for Rof changes . A truly modular system ..

I know its not a 1/1size but I think other manufacturers will take note and possibly start incorporating the features into their guns in the future . .

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Yeah but not being 1:1 size (in most cases) means being out by mm....only those who seriously know their guns ever really notice those kinds of differences....to the average Joe, people like me who have never, and probably will never, handled a real M4 those differences in dimension are so irrelavant it's not even worth mentioning.

 

I recently did some quick measurements of my Inokatsu SOPMOD M4 against my AGM GBBR M4, and seriously, there were 0.5mm differences in some areas, >5mm differences in others, seriously. This big hard on us airsofters have (and pay for) to get our guns 1:1 is a lot of money for very little real gain.

 

I can understand it in the US where the guys can fit real steel parts like upper receivers and the such, but in the UK, AEG sizes are just fine (IMHO).

 

It will be interesting to see how the new G&G stuff matches up to the various TW products out there.....

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Well, the fact that nobody has linked any actual airsoft product kinda proves my point. :)

 

Yes, there're WE Katana and KWA ERG models (which, btw, were announced in Spring 2012 with the 6 months ETA and just now are coming out). But not only these platforms are more expensive than the very aggressively priced G&D DTW and A&K and Airo TWs, these TW clones are becoming sort of a standard and I'm sure all the parts, magazines, bodies, etc, will be significantly easier to come by within 6-8 months.

 

I'm not saying clone (or original) TWs are ideal -- I've had issues with the crappy QC on the gen1 DTW myself, but if you consider them as a package for the value and features they bring OOB, there's nothing that comes even close. 

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BTW, anybody knows is someone is going to clone the rotatory hop chamber which can be adjusted withouttools or taking the mag out?

 

I'm aware of some Koreans have currently been working on it...

 

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I was promised one this month.... but never arrived.... yet.  =/

adchMqZO.jpg

 

And i'm told its a clone of a Swedish design.

 

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one can only hope something is available commercially soon.... as i do want.

 

 

BTW, are there instructions out there how to program burst mode on these MAX3 DTWs? 5 round burst would be ideal.

 

should be the same as the SECU sold separately.

 

wait for the beep...   ;)

 

 

actually i do have a little line of communication with G&D....

we should make a wish list.  ;)

1, smaller mosfets, (under construction apparently)

2, upper receiver compatable with original DTW's

3, Rotary hop up system.  

4, ECU programmable to semi only (for the few countries where this is law)

 

anything else ?

;)

 

Edited by The Insider
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Well, the fact that nobody has linked any actual airsoft product kinda proves my point. :)

 

OK, if you want a better product for airsoft here's a quick candidate: G&G COMBAT MACHINE.

 

It's cheaper, highly upgradeable, robust and with an immense parts availability both from G&G and after market it's 100% easier to maintain.

 

Doesn't have any gimmicky features that are prone to failure anyway, but in place of quick switch out fps, and cease fire on last round it offers game after game of full auto fire. A worthwhile trade off....

 

Happy now?

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no...  i don't see TW as any more prone to failure then a AEG. if not alot less than.

GBBR yes...  is high maintenance and high costs.... and i own nothing larger than a KC-02,
but have seen many of my friends get into GBBR's only to give up on them later to return to AEG's

I now actually see TW are now better than AEG's.... and i've yet to see a TW fail in any way shape or form.
where as i've busted plenty of aeg pistons and gears over the years.

although my DTW is still only a few months old and half a dozen outings... i have no issues to complain about.
only thing thats caught me out as i'm so used to AEG's is the stoppage on a empty mag makes me think somethings wrong... when its only a empty mag... lol.
but i will get used to that with time.

and so now with the new low pricing of the DTW's.... TW FTW... in my book.
 

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actually i do have a little line of communication with G&D....

we should make a wish list.  ;)

1, smaller mosfets, (under construction apparently)

2, upper receiver compatable with original DTW's

3, Rotary hop up system.  

4, ECU programmable to semi only (for the few countries where this is law)

 

anything else ?

;)

 

 

Thanks for the news about the rotatory hop up mate, and I dont know if there is anything to add to your wishlist, mine would simply be:

 

* Smaller mosfet

* Rotatory hop up system

* Reliability

* Reliability

* Moar reliability!!!!!1111!!!1!!oneoneoneone

 

:lol:

 

They manage that, and im in the game for one

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no...  i don't see TW as any more prone to failure then a AEG. if not alot less than.

GBBR yes...  is high maintenance and high costs.... and i own nothing larger than a KC-02,

but have seen many of my friends get into GBBR's only to give up on them later to return to AEG's

I now actually see TW are now better than AEG's.... and i've yet to see a TW fail in any way shape or form.

where as i've busted plenty of aeg pistons and gears over the years.

 

although my DTW is still only a few months old and half a dozen outings... i have no issues to complain about.

only thing thats caught me out as i'm so used to AEG's is the stoppage on a empty mag makes me think somethings wrong... when its only a empty mag... lol.

but i will get used to that with time.

and so now with the new low pricing of the DTW's.... TW FTW... in my book.

 

 

First up, do some research on those points, and secondly, think about the bigger picture. I'm not talking about GBBR because they are made for a different type of player, who understands the value and need to constantly maintain a rifle for use. I'm really comparing AEG and TW, and specifically for airsoft game play. Now, I know of one guy (a player friend of mine) who had his DTW for less than an hour, only to see it fail to fire and the electronics not function.....I saw this with my own eyes. The reports about CTW's spending more time in repair than out on the field is legendary....and I'm not going to discuss PTW's because quite frankly, from a financial perspective they almost certainly rule themselves out for the common player.

 

Now, should your standard AEG fail, it will likely cost you pennies to get it running again....it's as simple as that. It's not a financial killer, it's a bump in the road. If your TW goes down, you need to start thinking about the cost of repair, and the cost of parts. And just to warn you, it's savage!! Paying those repair costs once will make your butt hole twitch, now bear in mind, with constant usage, you may need to tap into those repair costs again in the future.....

 

I liken TW's to expensive fast cars, in many cases people could afford to buy them, but it's not the initial purchase that kills, it's the upkeep......TW's are exactly the same. In the UK £320 buys you the cheapest DTW, and that's fine....but keeping that baby in the field, in play....well, now you need the healthy bank account.

 

And that's the whole premise of my comments. When I go to a game, I want to just play airsoft. I know that equipment can fail, and I deal with that.....but running something like a G&G just takes so much pain out of playing airsoft and running equipment that it overshadows any perceived benefit of having a TW in the field.

 

My final note: I think TW are uber cool. When they work, they are lovely. The final development that will make these guns supreme over other options (again, not counting GBBR here!) is when parts are easier to obtain and about 50% - 60% cheaper. That reduction in price will counter the relative fragility of the platform (For example ECU's and rain don't seem to match).....and make them viable for a lot of players.

 

In my opinion, at the moment, for about 89% of players, TW's are simply not viable or advisable as a airsoft gaming tool.

Edited by Inq Eisenhorn
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OK, if you want a better product for airsoft here's a quick candidate: G&G COMBAT MACHINE.

 

If it has same instant trigger response, quick fps adjustment without tools and stopping firing on empty mag, I'm buying 5 of these. ;)

Edited by Stan-O
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The same applies to ptw , you spend circa a grand on a gun that then needs waterproofing of the electrics , motor rewinds , a decent barrel and hop etc ( basicaly a visit to tackle bury to relieve you of more money )

The tw , dtw seem to follow the same road . Less initial outlay but the same inherant weaknesses .

Its almost as if the manufacturers have planned for you to spend more money to make it reliable , accurate and waterproof to an acceptable degree . The parts are obscenely expensive for what they are

Whereas you could buy a gen 3 g&g and get blowback , MOSFET , reliable internals , accuracy , range out of the box . Spend another 100 quid and you could add an ASCu or chimera and have the mag stop feature . All in a much more reliable and skirmishable package . Also the g&g has a two year warranty to boot . So you can go out and use it with no worries of more money to spend for at least 2 years .

I like the tw guns , but ( a big deciding but) until they sort out the reliability issues , ability to use burst ,auto without frying something expensive etc , I will sit back and wait for a manufacturer to bring a solid , reliable , skirmishable non bank balance breaking equivalent product to the marketplace .

Edited by Baddbaz
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you will find DTW spare parts are equal prices to AEG spare parts.

although could be a case of... thats over here... and not over there.

Also i wasn't aware of the "waterproofing of the electrics"... was required.
but we do have hot wet summers here.... and mostly play indoors..... and dry winters... when we play mostly outdoors. 
so waterproofing may never be an issue here... or for some locations.. like California for example.

And forgive me as i'm new to DTW's and can only comment on my own experiences.
 

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