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Mk23 clone in a rifle form


Corkie121

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Greetings all,

 

I have a clone Mk23 NBB on its way to me (it's actually a USP .45 but essentially the same cloned base pistol) and having checked up on how it's put together it would seem that most of it from the trigger guard downwards can be lost.

 

Odd thing to do you say. However, the general idea is that with most of the pistol lost, it could be fitted into an old VSR stock with the magazine poking out the bottom, similar to .45 marlin rifles or the more famous Delisle Carbine. Following this, the usual stuff: longer VSR barrel and better hop up etc, to make it a serious contender out to 40 - 50m.

 

The only issue I have is how to make it fire. With the trigger further forwards from the rifles grip and with a magazine in the way, I feel I have the following options:

 

1) Remove the trigger unit and put it where the trigger should go on a rifle. It'll still operate outside the pistol, including the hammer which can be linked to hit the valve via a linkage rod through the back of the remaining pistol grip, allowing it to fire. The bit that is less clear is how to make the barrel move backwards during firing when the trigger isn't in the pistol or how to make it load the next round etc. More thought needed here maybe.

 

2) Leave the trigger in the pistol and fire the rifle using a servo to actuate the trigger. This would allow normal semi automatic fire to remain without any of the above barrel issues, but would also mean that the velocity would have to remain at 350fps or less due to this. In fairness, this may not be a major issue as I'm sure it'll remain accurate with less power.

 

Not too sure which route to follow here, if anyone has any ideas on either one or any other that I may have missed, that'd be great. I'm leaning towards option 2, mostly because at the range a semi auto base gun is likely to have, keeping semi auto and allowing it to fit into a DMR role seems more sensible and also because less mechanical work is needed, so less to go wrong.

 

The most obvious thing to point out is why I'm avoiding a mechanical link to the old trigger and making a new trigger in the correct place. Quite simple: I don't have outstanding workshop facilities or tools and making a sub par trigger system that will fail after a few uses doesn't seem too ideal.

 

Sorry for the massive post/block of text,

 

Cheers

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I'm thinking on something like this for a while but in an sr25 shell, not impossible to do this but need a lot of modifications aaand a completly customised magaznie and some plus parts to the trigger mech, I'm very curious how it will work for you... But with good bucking and a supressor it would be really effective.

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You might be better off replicating a Ruger PC9/40 instead of the Marlin Camp Carbine. Although they were only really made in 9mm and .40S&W, the Ruger is chunkier and would be easier to squeeze in the USP. Scaled below are the PC9 and a USP.

pc940.jpg

It looks like all the important parts will fit with the exception of the trigger and guard. You can lop it in half and just use a transfer bar running from the actual trigger and a new trigger acting as a lever at the back.

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that does sound like a nice project! seeing as you butchering the pistol up anyway, it shouldnt be too hard. im not 100% sure on the trigger emthod of the mk23 but im assuming it will use a triger arm to engage the sear. if that is the case it should be relatively easy to put a new trigger arm out the side of the reciever and back to a trigger so instead of the trigger pulling on the arm it pushes instead. i was going to use a p99 (only becuase i have a couple of 40rnd extended mags ;) )for this as it uses this method of operation. have had a similar idea too but got too many projects on the go atm to do it :/.

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Not that I have anything recent to back that up. Haven't exactly been doing custom jobs for a while.

 

Regarding the trigger, if you make the profile a bit meatier like say a P226 trigger and make it out of two sheets side by side it should be strong enough. But the transfer bar you'll need to make out of metal.

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look forward to seeing this project unfold

Me too! Wish I had more knowledge with which to assist you, but either way I find this to be a fascinating build. My only other question so far is what your plans are for the magazine release. Best way I can see is to cut the pistol grip right below the release, and then positioning the pistol so that the release is either flush or just below the bottom of the rifle receiver.

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My only other question so far is what your plans are for the magazine release. Best way I can see is to cut the pistol grip right below the release, and then positioning the pistol so that the release is either flush or just below the bottom of the rifle receiver.

 

Hit the nail on the head there, going to allow the release to sit just below the line of the stock so it can function normally. The hammer spring it turns out is not contained within the trigger assembly and does in fact go all the way to the bottom of the grip, meaning that a PC9 is in fact the way to go as I can disguise the grip as the permanent mag well seen on these rifles.

 

From looking at the pistol, I think the biggest challenge is going to be opening it up, there is no obvious way to do it as of yet and the 'manual' says its not allowed to be opened, oooh.

 

Cheers

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Watching this with great interest, I've got a spare socom and g-spec barrel that I bought exactly to do this with but i was stumped by the trigger, and how to disguise the slide into looking more like the receiver of a rifle.

Best of look with it! :D

Does the USP not disassemble like the mk23?

 

Cheers

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Another watching with interest :)

 

I toyed with going down the same path, there are those that reckon a MK23 dropped into a rifle package would be very very handy indeed.

I looked into making a plywood outer body, like a hera or KAPOS body kit, but decided i didn't have the tools or patience to pull it off.

A TM Mk23 nicely fits into a G36 upper reciever, i tried mine in DE UMP upper, minimal amount of work to "fit and hold" in the end i just went with a T-bar detachable stock, something that several other forum members have done with a VSR g-spec inner barrel conversion.

I am capped at 350fps, and DMRs or bolties must have a real world version to be allowed to play at higher FPS, so scaling back down worked out for me.

 

RC is the man to listen too, any hints or advice from him are sound, he has done so many scratch build projects so knows what he is talking about. {RC fan club member}

 

Some random thoughts on the trigger, you say the USP version is the same inner workings as the clone MK23, so a non-blowback system.

The trigger pull is fairly heavy on my TM MK23, the pull cycles the loading nozzle, sets the hammer, and chambers a BB.

 

By altering the pivot point (you might) and adding longer side bars, you may well find, partly due to added friction/parts rubbing that the trigger pull feels heavier, and a bit more squishy/slack play than stock.

 

 

 

 

Some photos of my playing around, the TM MK23 slotted in a DE UMP upper, with a STAR UMP for company.

The Mk1 T-bar stock, the T kept snagging things, i found mid game an old snapped off MP5 butt stock and have since resined that on in place of the T-bar.

And fun with fibre glass and resin making the detachable stock.

 

Good luck with the project :)

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Some nice stuff there Dagonet.

 

Turns out that it does take down in the same way, except that the lever had to be prised away from the gun, twisted and then pulled out: definitely not achievable had it been metal.

 

With it taken apart,the following has occured:

 

- The slide has been chopped, leaving only the rear part, containing the firing pin (that's right, it has a genuine firing pin) making it easier to fit a cover/barrel over the top.

 

- The trigger guard has gone, along with most of the trigger, again, easier to fit into the stock.

 

- The safety catch has gone (who needs them anyways...) as it was obstructing the fit into the stock.

 

The barrel is a little odd, in-keeping with the nbb function, meaning that the barrel I have will need to be reduced in diameter by around 0.5/1mm all round. It will also need 3 small grooves put in, matching the stock barrel to allow the mechanism to work.

 

The trigger mechanism issue seems to have been solved by the discovery of a paintball marker's trigger, now liberated from its frame for the greater good. A length of aluminium sheet will be used to connect the new trigger to the old trigger bar, as it's rather helpfully exposed now that the gun is minus its slide. With a bit of luck this will only be a case of drilling a couple of holes, and riveting the parts together with a card washer in between them: that way the card will eventually disintegrate and allow a better movement for the trigger.

 

Outer barrel wise, I'm leaning towards a full length suppressor look, 30mm pipe from receiver to end, capped etc.

 

Now for the exciting (maybe) part: photos. Possibly poor quality photos. Hmm.

The reason that a small piece of the slide has to remain, won't fire without this...

 

post-22650-0-43116700-1352840396_thumb.jpg

 

This is what is left so far, you'll have to imagine a far shorter trigger, I decided to chop it after taking the photo :P

 

post-22650-0-13868100-1352840289_thumb.jpg

 

Andddd all together now: in the stock for now, still a little high as again, this is taken pre trigger chop.

 

post-22650-0-52345300-1352840323_thumb.jpg

 

So there we go, update for today, can't do much more as it requires a bench grinder and I can't imagine my neighbours being too chuffed about that at this time....

 

Cheers

 

EDIT: Apologies for the screen breaking photo sizes, didn't realise they were quite that big....

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Photos are worth a thousand words :)

 

Makes more sense now, i understand how your doing the trigger better.

On a slight side note, had recent contact with a blue MK23 clone, we couldn't take it down like a TM MK23 as the fake slide lock back latch come safety catch take down lever would not budge, so they are now made differently. The insides are not like my TM MK23, so your answering questions for me, without me even asking :)

 

Looking good with the stock, surprised you have got so far so quick, excellent work.

 

I practiced recutting and slotting barrels on an old AEG brass barrel, used a Dremel with the fine cutting disc to cut the thin slots for hop rubber fittment.

Takes a few goes and making of small jigs to get right, but brass barrels are easy to work on and easy to find in other peoples spares boxes. A stock TM AEG barrel in brass would be a good find as the quailty is there, the 6.08 size shouldn't worry you as good barrels and the extra FPS will come from the extra length anyway.

 

Good work Corkie

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Cheers Dagonet, to be honest the stock was pretty simple, straight cuts with a dremel disk, essentially removed the whole of the bottom, from the grip to about an inch away from the rear of the old magwell. The rest was a few quick cuts with a hacksaw.

 

The barrel itself has already been modified with a dremel etc as I changed it to fit with a TM P226 (modded to fire single shot only and covered with a silencer) so it's slowly changing beyond recognition. The aeg barrel is probably a good call if I make a mess of this one.

I should probably mention that the hop up on this model has the potential to be abysmal, something I didn't realise until I took it apart, its a top down grub screw into a half pipe of rubber... We shall see how it performs over distance...

 

 

 

Need to make some solid parts from pvc to fit inside the stock for the new trigger, existing pistol etc to fit into. Figure I'll expanding foam the empty parts of the stock to remove any hollow sounding parts...

 

 

Cheers

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Update for today:

 

The vsr barrel is installed and working, bringing the barrel length to a healthy 11 inches, not toooooo far off a G-Spec. Any longer and the velocity actually drops away. That job was by far the most irritating so far, had to reduce the outer diameter of the barrel by about 1mm along half its length, recut the feeding slot and then cut three rings into the barrel to accommodate the split washers, odd design.... Not only that, but with the barrel springs installed, it was then too wide to fit into the outer barrel, requiring more sanding. Still not 100% perfect, but it works for now.

 

The mag well on the vsr stock has been filled with pvc and the inside above it has an additional two sheets of pvc to set the height for the pistol to be mounted.

Currently waiting for the epoxy to cure before drilling two holes (already drilled the pistol frame) in order to bolt the pistol into the stock.

 

Once that's done, the mag release (why couldn't it just be a push button?!) will sit just below the line of the stock. Going to need to remove a small piece of stock and then make it look pretty to be able to release the mag easily, will also have to blend the small piece of trigger guard that it's attached to into the stock.

 

Photos will hopefully come later this evening, that should make the above ramblings clear :)

 

Cheers

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Ok you can all come back now, photo time:

 

So this is the original barrel, madness.

post-22650-0-25984400-1352926669_thumb.jpg

 

And this is everything back together with the new barrel installed, much better.

post-22650-0-55859000-1352926806_thumb.jpg

 

First piece of filling in the magazine well...

post-22650-0-47557700-1352926908_thumb.jpg

 

So, the pistol is now bolted into the stock, woohoo!

post-22650-0-73241000-1352927007_thumb.jpg

 

And looking down the side of the rifle...

post-22650-0-05051000-1352927125_thumb.jpg

 

Andddd finally, filling over the mag well and various holes from screws, mag release buttons etc. Using this outstanding stuff called magic metal or something like that, rather handy really...

post-22650-0-72759800-1352927242_thumb.jpg

 

Photos over for now, more work tomorrow!

 

Cheers

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Pretty smooth progress you got there. Regarding the mag catch, if you're copying the PC9 in looks the magwell extends over the stock so you could just leave the mag catch as it is.

Otherwise you're looking at some serious fabrication:

pix508311718.jpg

You won't need to modify the mag itself as the detent on the PC9 mags are in front, like on a USP/Mk23. The catch is an L shaped lever pinned at the corner.

http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/schematics/r-pc9carbine.gif

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I'll post up a photo of why I need to do something with the mag catch later, it's mostly because of the small piece of trigger guard it sits on, doesn't look at all natural.

 

I'm wondering if I can get away with shortening the hammer spring and therefore the grip, so the mag well can look closer to the PC9s.. If a spring has 'x' amount of tension in 20 coils, it'll still have 'x' amount of tension in 5 coils right? Just so long as there's enough space left to compress fully over the hammer's movement...

 

We shall see, today will hopefully see the new trigger mech take shape, fingers crossed.

 

Cheers

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It has the hammer spring go through the backstrap? Odd of them to do that even though that's where it should be on real steel, but the Mk23 has a torsion hammer spring like a Glock. And no, the tension will be different from a spring with 20 coils cut down to 5. If it's gonna have the same amount of travel, the cut spring will actually have more tension, but will wear down faster. Not sure what it looks like internally until you provide pics, but it may be possible to jury rig a torsion spring in there either from a different gun or a found spring.

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Excellent point RC. It is indeed odd/exceptionally inconvenient that it goes down the back, especially considering the low cost nature of the gun and the original of the clone I'll have to think how to get around that one, I may well be able to find a smaller spring from the paintball gun I stole the trigger from...

 

Cheers

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