WA System MK12 SPR Build - High Spec, Advice Wanted.

[TB-Stalker]

Right, some of you may have seen my first build here: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=9599

Now that that's completed and in the hands of another owner <--- kind of regret it but oh well!

It's time for another build. However I have a couple of questions, this is going to be a MK12 SPR buid, something like this would be good:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y201/e ... G_1178.jpg

However, I have decided to put most of my funds into the lower/internals as this is what will likely be kept over the long term but I will probably chop and change uppers.

My question would be where would be the best place to start, I am set on having the WA system so all I am really after is which receiver to go for as well as internals for the lower. These are my priorities in terms of importance:

Trades - needs to be 100% m4a1 colt trades.
RS Spec - needs to fit RS pistol grips, maybe RS uppers, RS stocks etc etc.

This is going to be for a DMR so high fps (420) and preferably I want to be running GHK CO2 mags in it.

If anyone could weigh in that would be great, at the moment I am thinking a Prime receiver but I don't know where to go for internals.

Price is not really an issue with this build.

Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[WhiteHawksan]

well the internal s you had on your last build are pretty much as good as it gets, again, you can't go far wrong on the G&P steel guts. 

 

As for receiver, if you've more money than sense and you're a very sensible person then Viper is the best receiver to go for, I think I remember someone saying they'll engrave anything you want on the receiver if you email them, ofc, it's not exactly cheap

[TB-Stalker]

Ah ok, the trades are what put me off the Viper receivers, I thought Prime would be top of the tree.

 

I've heard good things about a few internal brands, which do you think would be best out of the following for the FCG:

 

Prime, 5KU, Iron Airsoft or just steel G&P?

[WhiteHawksan]

the viper receivers are forged and sodding expensive. But they're as realistic as you're gonna get. You'll need a prime length bolt carrier if I recall correctly.

 

As for them 5KU are ACM and have variable quality control, Iron Airsoft are top end ACM, and G&P and Prime are both top end, I've not heard much about Prime internals, but I'm sure they're as top notch, and top price as everything else they make.

[christhesecond]

I would stick with the g&p steel internals personally. You know they work well so stick with them.

[hwagan]

Second the above - I once bought a 5KU 1911 Steel hammer; I've never seen a more appalingly manufactured piece of anything ever. 

[TB-Stalker]

the viper receivers are forged and sodding expensive. But they're as realistic as you're gonna get. You'll need a prime length bolt carrier if I recall correctly.

 

As for them 5KU are ACM and have variable quality control, Iron Airsoft are top end ACM, and G&P and Prime are both top end, I've not heard much about Prime internals, but I'm sure they're as top notch, and top price as everything else they make.

 

Ok, I will have a look into the Viper receivers, if not, I will go for a Prime.

 

Ok, well it looks like G&P and Prime internals it is then!

 

Second the above - I once bought a 5KU 1911 Steel hammer; I've never seen a more appalingly manufactured piece of anything ever. 

 

Definitely staying away from those then!

 

On another note, does anyone know where to get a SPR Carbon Fibre front end, I know Madbull and CA used to make them but I can't find them in stock anywhere as I think they are discontinued, I will either have to track down one of those or get a RS one.

[PureSilver]

For a WA lower, Inokatsu are hands-down the best out there - licensed Colt M4A1 trades (good luck getting those anywhere else), full steel internals as standard, fully RS-compatible. When it comes to realism, only Inokatsu and Viper's lowers are forged - everyone else, whether they're PRIME (at $550+) or 5ku (at $50), isn't. If you're going to sink big money into a WA gun, you want the body to be the best it can, and since Viper's are worked for their weird short-stroke system I'd go with Ino's. Plus, Inokatsu's stuff comes with all the steel parts it normally costs the Earth to acquire (I seem to remember you having to buy an entirely different WOC?) as stock. I wouldn't normally recommend getting parts for a project from them, but here's the thing - if you buy the B-grade CQBR from RedWolf, and sell the bits you don't need, this is actually not just viable but actually kind of sensible. The prices are a conservative guess:
 
Inokatsu M4A1 CQBR B-Grade: $760
 
- ProWin V2 50rd STANAG, £45
- Inokatsu KAC RAS and rail panels, £60+
- Inokatsu Colt Licensed 10.3in Steel Outer Barrel, forged aluminium A2 front sight and carbine-length gas tube, £70+
- Inokatsu (possibly LMT Licensed) Colt M4 Stock, £40+

- Inokatsu Inner Barrel & Hop Unit, £20

 

That should add up to around £220, which means that the best WA receiver in the business, including upper and lower, delta ring assembly, stock tube, pistol grip, filled with all-steel parts, and including every working part, is about £250.

 

That's a f***ing bargain.
 
Here's an explanation of why it's B-grade (amounting to a small gap in the lower, which is covered by the ejection port). Note that RedWolf is promising to sell future flawless bodies at preferential prices to anyone who buys a B-grade, and you won't have any difficulty selling the original (e.g., to me).
 

[BaBaBooey]

I think some SPR's used A1 lowers so I went with an A1. I initially had the Viper A1 lower, but changed it over PRIME A1 since it was closer to the real one. PRIME is 6065, but I've had no problems with it - I did have it professionally anodized with a type 3 hard coat (the finish on both Viper and PRIME A1 is very different from Colt's).

 

If you decide to use real Colt uppers, I recommend a PRIME lower. I didn't need to modify the upper to make it work - it was a bit more difficult on the Viper (I had to modify both the upper and lower with a VERY tight fitting upper. Also, I wasn't able to figure out how to make the bolt stop work).

 

The GHK magazines just didn't work. The Pro-Win V2 magazine was better, but only worked with a PRIME and G&P magazine catch on the PRIME lower. Other magazine catches I used needed various modifications. I now use the original WA Duty Magazines and modified them for HPA. All my lower internals are the standard steel parts you can get fairly easily at Asian airsoft retailers. I've been using HPA for about 6 months now and there is very little sign of unusual wear.

 

You can get the original second hand PRI Gen II forearms for pretty cheap (I've seen some on GB and ARFCOM in the $200 to $300 US range)...the Gen III's are still pretty expensive. The ARMS PEQ sleeves are very hard to find now. The last one I saw was over $200 US on ARFCOM...a few years ago they used to be as low as $75 to $100 US. If you use an airsoft one, see if you can get one made by GB-Tech. It's much nicer than any other replica PEQ sleeve, but might be tough to find now.

 

Hope this helps - good luck.

[mimesis]

FWIW, these were announced today.

 

http://madbull.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=PRI+GIII  Scroll down past the Deltas.

 

The Swan rail is indeed very tricky.  The CA is virtually unobtanium.  Madbull made a top rail that fit the Deltas, perhaps they'll do the same with these.

[TB-Stalker]

*Snip*

 

You're a little bit awesome these days really, buying my suppressors and helping me out, cheers!

 

Do you know if the Inokatsu lowers are compatible with prime uppers etc, as I would be building multiple uppers and finding spare Ino uppers could be a pain.

 

I think some SPR's used A1 lowers so I went with an A1. I initially had the Viper A1 lower, but changed it over PRIME A1 since it was closer to the real one. PRIME is 6065, but I've had no problems with it - I did have it professionally anodized with a type 3 hard coat (the finish on both Viper and PRIME A1 is very different from Colt's).

 

If you decide to use real Colt uppers, I recommend a PRIME lower. I didn't need to modify the upper to make it work - it was a bit more difficult on the Viper (I had to modify both the upper and lower with a VERY tight fitting upper. Also, I wasn't able to figure out how to make the bolt stop work).

 

The GHK magazines just didn't work. The Pro-Win V2 magazine was better, but only worked with a PRIME and G&P magazine catch on the PRIME lower. Other magazine catches I used needed various modifications. I now use the original WA Duty Magazines and modified them for HPA. All my lower internals are the standard steel parts you can get fairly easily at Asian airsoft retailers. I've been using HPA for about 6 months now and there is very little sign of unusual wear.

 

You can get the original second hand PRI Gen II forearms for pretty cheap (I've seen some on GB and ARFCOM in the $200 to $300 US range)...the Gen III's are still pretty expensive. The ARMS PEQ sleeves are very hard to find now. The last one I saw was over $200 US on ARFCOM...a few years ago they used to be as low as $75 to $100 US. If you use an airsoft one, see if you can get one made by GB-Tech. It's much nicer than any other replica PEQ sleeve, but might be tough to find now.

 

Hope this helps - good luck.

 

Hi there, cheers for the information, what was wrong with your GHK magazines as I have never had a problem with them.

 

FWIW, these were announced today.

 

http://madbull.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=PRI+GIII  Scroll down past the Deltas.

 

The Swan rail is indeed very tricky.  The CA is virtually unobtanium.  Madbull made a top rail that fit the Deltas, perhaps they'll do the same with these.

 

Funny you mentioned that, I emailed madbull last night about an old post I saw about them selling these in the future when they announced the Deltas.

 

Madbull say they will be available from retailers in 3-4 weeks.

 

I've actually just been PM'd by a user on here offering to sell me the CA carbon fibre front end and the CA swan rail!! 

 

 

 

So, after these delighful individuals have weighed in, it looks like either Inokatsu or Prime for the lowers, does anyone have any information on their compatibility as I would want multiple uppers, RS uppers and GHK/Prowin V2 VN mags?

[mimesis]

I've actually just been PM'd by a user on here offering to sell me the CA carbon fibre front end and the CA swan rail!! 

I did an AEG build with the CA aluminum forearm and CA swan rail a while ago.  It's very nice... and very heavy.  If I had it to do over again, I'd use the carbon fibre, so that sounds like a good deal to me.  Two years ago, there were two minor and obscure Hong Kong retailers (e.g. Cobra airsoft) that had the swan rail in stock.  I also had the matching rear site from D-Boys and can't recommend it: the metal was like marzipan.

[PureSilver]

You're a little bit awesome these days really, buying my suppressors and helping me out, cheers!

 

Do you know if the Inokatsu lowers are compatible with prime uppers etc, as I would be building multiple uppers and finding spare Ino uppers could be a pain.

My pleasure. The Inokatsu is readily compatible with real AR15 uppers, which are both easier and cheaper to get than nice airsoft ones. You can either remove a small amount of material from the RS upper, or a small amount of material from the Inokatsu bolt catch. RS compatibility means that it should be compatible with PRIME etc, too. Alternatively, I'm happy to sell you my Inokatsu upper (or you can swap me it for the CQBR barrel) as I've got all Colt stuff coming it to replace it.

 

So, after these delighful individuals have weighed in, it looks like either Inokatsu or Prime for the lowers, does anyone have any information on their compatibility as I would want multiple uppers, RS uppers and GHK/Prowin V2 VN mags?

The Inokatsu lower is perfectly compatible with ProWin V2s (that's what I use) but you will need to remove (unscrew) or sand down the back of the the ProWin nameplate on the rear of the magazine, otherwise the mag won't drop free under its own weight. Without the plate there's no rattle, nothing. They even sell Inokatsu-specific gas routers ($5 each, I've got some on the way) but I'm using the stock ones at the moment without issue. As before, the Inokatsu is compatible with RS uppers - have a look on GGi for some examples of the work necessary on the bolt catch. I imagine the PRIME should be pretty much identical; the difference in tolerances here will be the major difference (tenths or hundredths of a millimetre). Hope that helps!

[cavapanther]

I was in your situation about a week ago, not sure what's the best way to build a WA. In the end, I ordered a Viper. Cheers to the nice folks here, I got some really good advice from them. I see you don't have a budget limit, but if you want to build one from scratch, the price goes up really fast, and you could have saved a lot just to start with a reliable gun. I won't recommend a WOC (I used to own two of them) because Viper is so much better internally and externally for the money. If you worried about the trades, Inokatsu is your best bet. They are equally good considering viper used to make those M4s for ino, they come with licensed trade but they you cost more.

 

Since you are specifically building a MK12 Mod 0, if you want an accurate replica, the hardest part is finding the ARMS #38 PEQ 2-3 swan sleeve. ARMS no longer manufacture those sleeve rails, you either buy a second hand if you can still find them or you could go with the PRI version. They are pretty much the same thing, but if you want it to be as accurate as you can get, the ARMS sleeve was used in the original Mod 0 SPR.

[PureSilver]

What's interesting about this is that I was considering doing an SPR upper for my Inokatsu too, with a PRI handguard (which means that it's either the base SPR, or Mk. 12 Mod. 0, because the SPR/A, SPR/B and Mk. 12 Mod. 1 all use KAC rail systems). Like cavapanther says, the A.R.M.S. sleeves are REALLY hard to get.

[TB-Stalker]

My pleasure. The Inokatsu is readily compatible with real AR15 uppers, which are both easier and cheaper to get than nice airsoft ones. You can either remove a small amount of material from the RS upper, or a small amount of material from the Inokatsu bolt catch. RS compatibility means that it should be compatible with PRIME etc, too. Alternatively, I'm happy to sell you my Inokatsu upper (or you can swap me it for the CQBR barrel) as I've got all Colt stuff coming it to replace it.

 

The Inokatsu lower is perfectly compatible with ProWin V2s (that's what I use) but you will need to remove (unscrew) or sand down the back of the the ProWin nameplate on the rear of the magazine, otherwise the mag won't drop free under its own weight. Without the plate there's no rattle, nothing. They even sell Inokatsu-specific gas routers ($5 each, I've got some on the way) but I'm using the stock ones at the moment without issue. As before, the Inokatsu is compatible with RS uppers - have a look on GGi for some examples of the work necessary on the bolt catch. I imagine the PRIME should be pretty much identical; the difference in tolerances here will be the major difference (tenths or hundredths of a millimetre). Hope that helps!

 

Very interesting, it's looking like the Ino might be the winner then! I will drop you a PM in a bit about buying one if you want any parts etc.

 

I reckon I will go Ino/Viper for this buid, then in future if I want a concept rifle with fancy trades such as a Troy lower then I will get a Prime for that.

 

I was in your situation about a week ago, not sure what's the best way to build a WA. In the end, I ordered a Viper. Cheers to the nice folks here, I got some really good advice from them. I see you don't have a budget limit, but if you want to build one from scratch, the price goes up really fast, and you could have saved a lot just to start with a reliable gun. I won't recommend a WOC (I used to own two of them) because Viper is so much better internally and externally for the money. If you worried about the trades, Inokatsu is your best bet. They are equally good considering viper used to make those M4s for ino, they come with licensed trade but they you cost more.

 

Since you are specifically building a MK12 Mod 0, if you want an accurate replica, the hardest part is finding the ARMS #38 PEQ 2-3 swan sleeve. ARMS no longer manufacture those sleeve rails, you either buy a second hand if you can still find them or you could go with the PRI version. They are pretty much the same thing, but if you want it to be as accurate as you can get, the ARMS sleeve was used in the original Mod 0 SPR.

 

Ok, yes I was tempted with the Viper but the trades really put me off, their stripped receivers do tempt me though.

 

I think it's going to be either the CA Carbon Fibre front end or the RS PRI one, I don't mind using PRIs sleeve, but I can get a hold of CA's replica of the A.R.M.S one pretty easily.

 

What's interesting about this is that I was considering doing an SPR upper for my Inokatsu too, with a PRI handguard (which means that it's either the base SPR, or Mk. 12 Mod. 0, because the SPR/A, SPR/B and Mk. 12 Mod. 1 all use KAC rail systems). Like cavapanther says, the A.R.M.S. sleeves are REALLY hard to get.

 

Yh, that's what mad me go for the MK12 Mod 0, I really don't like the look of that front KAC rail, don't know what it is but I just don't like it, might be time to do some joint orders

[BaBaBooey]

I'm not sure what version I saw, but the Inno receiver was finished very poorly...it was an old version so they may have fixed things now.

 

Just an FYI, I suggest removal of material from the real upper using the proper tools. If too much material is removed, the barrel socket falls too deep into the receiver and the entire hop up chamber becomes out of position. You'll get very erratic performance. Like I mentioned, I suggest the PRIME lowers as its relatively easy to modify and the bolt stop would work.

 

My GHK magazines didn't fit into the PRIME lower. It needed a tremendous amount of force to pull in/out. I suppose I could have filed down the magwell, but was afraid my other magazines (i.e. Pro-Win, WA, etc.) would no longer work.

[PureSilver]

Hmm. Well, if BaBaBooey says something, he's worth listening to. That said, my 'kat is a 2009 RA-Tech SV - an elegant weapon for a more civilised age - and its finish is pretty much perfect, and I'm picky. BBB, was the gun you saw a 2008? Those are pretty widely considered dire. Having had a look at the GGi thread I see Inokatsu aren't getting much love - which isn't surprising, given what they charge - but I've never thought there was anything wrong with my receiver. I'll answer some of your questions over on there.

 

 

Just an FYI, I suggest removal of material from the real upper using the proper tools. If too much material is removed, the barrel socket falls too deep into the receiver and the entire hop up chamber becomes out of position. You'll get very erratic performance. Like I mentioned, I suggest the PRIME lowers as its relatively easy to modify and the bolt stop would work.

 

It seems to be that working with a RS upper is the same whether you're mating it to a PRIME lower or an Inokatsu one. Am I wrong?

 

Also a heads up - I haven't tried the GHK CO₂ magazines in my gun and I've heard they can be leaky. I was - am - patiently waiting on G&P's dual-capsule designs, not that I think they're ever going to come out.

[BaBaBooey]

Something like finish is subjective - because I don't like it doesn't mean it's bad. When compared side by side to a Colt lower that I had, I thought it was different...the dimensions where slightly off around the mag well and the finish poor. I'm not sure which Inno version I saw, but it was old. I'm sure things have improved.

 

Sort of...I tried fitting one of my modified Colt upper that worked fine on a PRIME lower, but didn't work over an Inno lower (e.g. the fit was way too tight and the bolt stop didn't work). I also once modified a Colt upper for an Inno lower that worked, but when it was swapped over to a different Inno lower, it stopped working. 

 

VIPER fits nice, but the firing block design is different and the modifications needed are different. Just an FYI, I've had my fair share of crappy PRIME parts. But for using Colt uppers I usually recommend PRIME; there seems to be too much inconstancies among Inno lowers, especially confusion in when it was made, what version, etc.

[TB-Stalker]

Thank you gentlemen, especially:

 

That said, my 'kat is a 2009 RA-Tech SV - an elegant weapon for a more civilised age - 

 

Made me smile. 

 

I stumbled across this thread on the GG forum comparing the Ino and the Viper receivers:

 

http://www.gasguns.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=9308&hilit=venom22#p68353

 

At the moment it's looking like Viper is winning and in that thread it looks like their lowers work fine with Prime upper receivers so that may be the direction I head off in.

[TB-Stalker]

AHA! Thought I would share this as I have recently stumbled across it almost by luck.

 

Viper Tech have released this video:

 

http://youtu.be/F0tuqzo_k-Y

 

Showing how the Viper works with GHK CO2 Mags, from there I then found this article:

 

http://www.gasguns.info/?p=85

 

This shows a new hammer spring and bolt stop assembly which means that the system is no longer short stroked and the bolt stop will work with WA, Prime and GHK Mags!!

 

Plus, if you look here:

 

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/viper-tech-m4a1-moe-gbb-steel-version.html

 

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/other-gun/gas-blow-black-rifle/viper-tech/viper-tech-m4a1-ras-gbb-rifle-2011-steel-version.html

 

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/other-gun/gas-blow-black-rifle/viper-tech/viper-tech-m4a1-gbb-rifle-2011-steel-version.html

 

This shows that the new Magpul Viper and the M4A1 2011 steel versions come with this as standard.

 

I don't know about everyone else, but this makes me very happy!

[TB-Stalker]

I have ordered myself a M4A1 RAS: http://www.bbdragon.com.tw/product_info.php/products_id/1547

 

As part of my build I have no need for the entire upper, if anyone want's this I will be selling it, brand new.

[Paul202]

If you haven't found the rail sleeve, there's one here:

http://www.evike.com/product_info.php?cPath=25_86_267&products_id=28682

[TB-Stalker]

If you haven't found the rail sleeve, there's one here:

http://www.evike.com/product_info.php?cPath=25_86_267&products_id=28682

 

As per the other thread, this isn't carbon fiber and this is an AEG kit. Not a lot of good for a GBBR build.

 

Stalker.

 

 

[BaBaBooey]

Stalker - are you going to chop down a 22" outer barrel?