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Saiga 12K Build


PianoBlack

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Hello all,

 

I've decided to attempt to build a Saiga 12K. While I know that there are many differences between an actual Saiga 12K and the AK104 (the gun I will be using as the basis of this build), the latter provides a strong starting point. There are certain obstacles that cannot be overcome easily, such as receiver dimensions, trigger guard, bolt, and top cover. However, there are enough differences that can be addressed simply so that the end result bears a remarkable semblance to the actual Saiga 12K that I feel comfortable attempting it. Additionally, there are quite a few different variants of the 12K. Some have a sight integrated into the gas block, some have a sight rib, and some have it at the end of the barrel. Some have AK74-style handguards, some have the Saiga 12 style handguards. Some have the metal triangular folding stock, some have the plastic folding stock, and some have the SVDS folding stock.

 

Listed below are the major hurdles I foresee that I will have to overcome in order to bring my project to fruition.

 

1. Barrel length - The Saiga 12K has a barrel length of 430mm vs 312mm of the AK104.

2. Barrel diameter - The Saiga 12K has a barrel diameter of .88" nominal, substantially larger than the AK104's diameter.

3. Lower handguard and gas tube - The Saiga 12K variant I am attempting to build has no upper handguard, just a smooth gas tube (no retainers) and a lower hand guard that bolts onto the gasblock with a M5 screw.

4. Magazine - The Saiga 12K uses a different magazine than the AK104.

5. Projectiles - The Saiga 12K shoots 12 guage shotgun shells, the Ak104 is a rifle. The average 12 gauge 00 shot shell has 9 pellets in it.

 

This is how I foresee overcoming those hurdles.

 

1. Barrel length - Conveniently enough, there is a barrel extension that is with 2mm of being the exact length to make up the difference. It is also threaded 14mm - so it will work with the AK104's gas block/front sight. Cost of this part is roughly $14.

2. Barrel diameter - Conveniently enough, 3/4" copper tubing has a nominal outer diameter of .88" which will allow it to function as a sleeve around the Ak104's outer barrel. Cut, paint, center, and epoxy. Cost of this part is maybe $3.

3. Lower handguard and gas tube - Conveniently enough, you can buy a Saiga 12 lower handguard off eBay for $30 shipped. Grinding down the handguard retainers on the Ak104 gas tube is free.

4. Magazine - This will be a bit trickier. Due to current real life events, Saiga magazines are stupid expensive. However, I should be able to find at-least one to use as a basis to cut plastic to bulk out the standard Mag midcaps I will be using.

5. Projectiles - I have a Polarstar Fusion Engine for the Ak platform that will provide the means to have a 9 round burst at a sufficiently high enough ROF to simulate the shotgun effect.

 

There are some smaller, cosmetic differences that will be addressed once they are encountered. Feel free to chime in with any suggestions. I will keep you posted as the parts arrive and work commences.

 

Cheers,

Piano

 

*edit*

The will be a flash hider, but I have not decided which one yet. I'm sure I can figure out a way to attach a real 12K brake onto the threads as I believe it uses the 22mm threading, but more research is warranted. I will have a picture of the final design shortly.

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I've thought about this before, and I think it would be better to have a short outer barrel (100mm or so) and have a longer thicker pipe over that to act as the real outer barrel. That way you'll have a large bore size so it will look much more realistic than a copper pipe over a standard outer barrel. This will also allow you to have a 150-200mm inner barrel kind of 'float' in the larger bore of the barrel extension which might throw off accuracy enough to give you a little bit of a pattern, but not so much to make it useless past 150 feet or so. Finding something off the shelf with the correct wall thickness, strength, and outer diameter might be a challenge, but you might be able to find a barrel from a junk real steel shotgun for dirt cheap. 

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Thank you for your thoughts and considerations. The issue of how to achieve a proper spread at range is going to be a tricky one as the basic rule of thumb is 1" spread for every 1 yard travelled. At 150 feet, that would result in a 50" spread. A certain amount of realism is no doubt going to be sacrificed in the name of usability, but then again, there is an airhose emerging from the grip of the gun.

 

Cheers,

Piano

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  • 2 weeks later...

Reference Photographs:

 
IzhmashSaiga12K030E.jpg
 
IzhmashSaiga12K030A.jpg
 
IzhmashSaiga12K030DetailC.jpg
 
IzhmashSaiga12K030DetailA.jpg
IzhmashSaiga12K030DetailB.jpg
 
IzhmashSaiga12K030DetailE.jpg
 
 
Status Update:
 
Today one of the parts I ordered, the clamp-on front sight, arrived. It fits perfectly onto the 3/4" copper pipe I am using to increase the diameter of the outer barrel. Another part was supposed to arrive Friday, but it was misrouted to Oregon and therefor is due tomorrow. A friend of mine is machining an adapter to allow me to use an actual SAIGA 12 flash hider so I have ordered both that and a recoil pad for the stock. They are due to arrive some time next week. I have also ordered a cheek rest as shown in some of the reference photographs, but it is being sent from the UK and I haven't heard anything from the retailer so I am estimating it will take two weeks to get here. The AK104 is due to arrive on Thursday so I can begin to plan both how to replicate the SAIGA 12's gas block but also how to attach the front hand guard to the gas block. The SAIGA 12 uses a bolt that threads into the gas block to accomplish this. If I am lucky, the AK104 front sight/gas block will have a set screw like my RPK74 gas block does. If not, I am sure I can find a work around.
 
SaigaFrontSight.jpg
 
Thanks for following along,
 
Piano
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Status Update:

 

Today's update is a mixed one. Let's start with the good news, which is that the LCT TK105 conversion kit arrived. Like the RPKS74 I own, it's a solid kit with steel in all the right places. Now for the bad news. First, the hand guard was not delivered today as USPS decided to forward it to Nevada. Round and round it goes, where it stops, nobody knows. Second, but more importantly, it turns out that the outer barrel is not threaded in 14mm CCW, but instead the combination front sight/gas block is threaded in 24mm CW. I should had seen this coming as the RPKS74 has similar construction, but I assumed that at the very least, the front sight/gas block would be threaded in 14mm CCW due to the availability of a 14mm CCW threaded flash hider for the conversion kit from LCT. I believe that LCT changed this with the NV series of their AEGs/Kits.

 

However, not all is lost! There actually is an aftermarket 24mm CW to 14mm CCW thread adapter widely available. However, it will add 3/7 of an inch to the overall length of the barrel.

 

Additionally, the set screw that holds the front sight/gas block snug to the outer barrel is nearly obstructed by the threading for the flash hider. I am brainstorming a solution to this, but progress cannot be made until the hand guard arrives. I may be forced to use the 030-varient furniture, which is just the standard AK74M hand guards, but it makes the SAIGA 12K look more like a AK74M with a weird gas block and a very fat outer barrel.

 

Thanks for following along and please offer me any advice if you had any,

Piano

 

* On a related note, the front sight/gas block is actually based on the Bulgarian, not the Russian version as it features an angular detent pin housing as opposed to the Russian version which features a rounder housing. I don't care as I'll be hacking the front sight off of this so this sort of accuracy isn't something I'd lose sleep over, but it may affect your sleep patterns.

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Status Update:

 

After giving the problem so more thought, another solution has presented itself. The outer barrel is under the threaded portion of the front sight/gas block so that all I have to do it cut off the 24mm threading and rethread the outer barrel in 14mm LH. This is a more elegant solution than using the adapter, which is larger in diameter than the actual Saiga 12K barrel and wouldn't add much to the overall length of the barrel. 

 

Thanks for following along,

Piano

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Status Update: The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly.

 

The Good: Two shipments arrived today. The first of which was the Saiga furniture and was due to arrive on the 11th, but USPS decided to route that package to several other states on two occasions and had to be forwarded to me. Strange. The second was my order from WGCshop for the outer barrel extension. Yesterday another order arrived which had the recoil pad (grenade launcher butt pad) and the 10-slot flash hider. The former is UTG, but cheap, and the last is made in the USA, but also cheap. It's based on the Russian design so all is well though.

 

The Bad (well, inconvenient) : The Saiga 12 uses a shorter gas tube than the standard AK series and a longer gas tube than the AKS74U. Unlike the Goldilocks metaphor, there isn't a just right gas tube. Because of this, I will have to do two things. First will be cutting a hole in the outer barrel (for the gas block drift pin) and moving the gas block back. A benefit to this is that I can mount a threaded insert (found in my spare parts box) to the bottom of the modified gas block and bolt on the hand guard that way. Second will be cutting down the LCT AKM63 (or whatever they want to call it) gas tube to length.

 

The Ugly: Echo1 has posted a picture of the Rifle Dynamics Saiga S12 SBS Cho-Gun on their Facebook page asking what airsoft shotgun you would like to see next. Some have interpreted this as that E1 will be releasing an airsoft S12, but I'm continuing on with this project.

 

Thanks for following along and there will be pictures tomorrow,

Piano

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Im also attempting to build a Saiga 12K. Local store was nice enough to let me compare a AK74-variant of some sort to a short-barrel Saiga so i got most of the differences. ATM im looking for proper base for the project. My idea is a AK74 or any AK that has a LARGE stock for a big battery. I allready have AKSU that im hoping to leave as it is... It is however a base for my "multi-feed-system"

 

I dare say the externals are somewhat the "easy part" but since i wont pretend "it shoots slugs" i came up with TWO ways to feed multible bbs into the barrel at each shot.

 

System one:

Based loosely on "double-feeding" that plaque some guns. This was based in a TM AK-beta looooong ago, im hoping to re-make it with proper parts.

Basicly the last gear had TWO cams that pulled the tappet-plate back and the hopup rubber was replaced with a lip-less piece of rubbed hose(providing no hopup) letting 2 bbs in the barrel and the second cam loaded a third.

There were other minor modifications and the to keep the bbs in the barrel i cut in a hole for a O-ring to go inside the barrel. 

 

This was not even meant to work for long nor provide ample FPS, it was simply meant to test the concept and i must say, IT WAS GOOOOOD! 

I put much more rounds thru it then i initially intended, the system loaded 3 bbs EVERY TIME without a flaw. While the FPS was pitiful at best the concept worked.

 

Im hoping to re-create this concept first with extreme FPS-spring to due to the 3bbs needing an extra power to go toe-to-toe with normal M120 AEGs. Im using the AKSU as base for all this till i get a proper donor for the externals and finalize the whole thing. Using 300% gearset and CPU-mosfet i should be able to get some more "time" for the system and since the mosfet is able to "pre-cock" the gun the semi-auto wont suffer from the long gear-ratio.

 

To-do are: hopup, finalizing air-seal. I may need a complete custom hopup and custom made nozzle.

 

System two: (still only theory, not needed if S1 works perfectly)

Ver3 gearbox has nice room to play, i was thinking of building an electric loading-system via the CPU-mosfet(its a DIY version that can support such addon easy). Basicly the mosfet loads 3-6 bbs in the barrel between each shot. 

Moving the tappet plate would be done via electric components, magnets perhaps and not the gears.

 

EDIT: the look im hoping to get is something like this:

http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/shotgun/sh07/saiga_12k-1.jpg

 

A simple "ranch-gun"

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maybe I'm just not seeing it but will you be modifying the ejection port/"bolt" to look like the saiga as well?

 

I will be working on that part after I get the front end squared away. It won't be perfect, but I'm going to try to duplicate the ejection port cover, which actually is semi-floating. I don't know if I can duplicate how it actual functions, but I will try to duplicate the appearance at the very least. I've attached an image of the dust cover, ejection port cover, and bolt of the real S12.

 

Im also attempting to build a Saiga 12K. Local store was nice enough to let me compare a AK74-variant of some sort to a short-barrel Saiga so i got most of the differences. ATM im looking for proper base for the project. My idea is a AK74 or any AK that has a LARGE stock for a big battery. I allready have AKSU that im hoping to leave as it is... It is however a base for my "multi-feed-system"

 

I dare say the externals are somewhat the "easy part" but since i wont pretend "it shoots slugs" i came up with TWO ways to feed multible bbs into the barrel at each shot.

 

System one:

Based loosely on "double-feeding" that plaque some guns. This was based in a TM AK-beta looooong ago, im hoping to re-make it with proper parts.

Basicly the last gear had TWO cams that pulled the tappet-plate back and the hopup rubber was replaced with a lip-less piece of rubbed hose(providing no hopup) letting 2 bbs in the barrel and the second cam loaded a third.

There were other minor modifications and the to keep the bbs in the barrel i cut in a hole for a O-ring to go inside the barrel. 

 

This was not even meant to work for long nor provide ample FPS, it was simply meant to test the concept and i must say, IT WAS GOOOOOD! 

I put much more rounds thru it then i initially intended, the system loaded 3 bbs EVERY TIME without a flaw. While the FPS was pitiful at best the concept worked.

 

Im hoping to re-create this concept first with extreme FPS-spring to due to the 3bbs needing an extra power to go toe-to-toe with normal M120 AEGs. Im using the AKSU as base for all this till i get a proper donor for the externals and finalize the whole thing. Using 300% gearset and CPU-mosfet i should be able to get some more "time" for the system and since the mosfet is able to "pre-cock" the gun the semi-auto wont suffer from the long gear-ratio.

 

To-do are: hopup, finalizing air-seal. I may need a complete custom hopup and custom made nozzle.

 

System two: (still only theory, not needed if S1 works perfectly)

Ver3 gearbox has nice room to play, i was thinking of building an electric loading-system via the CPU-mosfet(its a DIY version that can support such addon easy). Basicly the mosfet loads 3-6 bbs in the barrel between each shot. 

Moving the tappet plate would be done via electric components, magnets perhaps and not the gears.

 

EDIT: the look im hoping to get is something like this:

http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/shotgun/sh07/saiga_12k-1.jpg

 

A simple "ranch-gun"

 

I'm glad that somebody else is also attempting to build a S12K. Keep us all posted.

 

In regards to the spread of the bb's, perhaps an r-hop patch to retain range, but you mess with the crown, either eliminating it altogether, and/or filing channels were the crown is/was until you get the desired spread.

 

to increase spread, you can use a *suitcasey* quality barrel.

Alternatively, you could use either an Orga widebore or TK Twist at over 1 joule. That much power destabilizes them and will give you innaccuracy, but anytime you want to make it accurate you'll just need to adjust your rig's fps.

 

I'll keep all of these options in mind. Currently I have a cut down Madbull Black Python II inner barrel that was sitting around. I'm going to see if I can figure out how to tune a "choke" at the muzzle crown.

 

Cheers,

Piano

post-27398-0-69841600-1359878384_thumb.jpg

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S12KMockup_zps8b12e186.jpg

 

Here's a mock up of the S12K with a list of what still needs to be done externally:

 

1. Mock up the LCT AK74 magazine to replicate the S12's 8 round magazine.

2. Mock up the ejection port and floating port cover of the S12.

3. Ream out and expand the front of the gas tube so it fits around the gas block.

4. Build up the gas block to the proper profile.

5. Attach and paint the copper pipe being used as an outer barrel from gas block forward.

6. Attach the flash hider.

7. BUild up the outer barrel under the hand guard so I can attach the mounting stud for the hand guard.

 

Not mentioned is the need to build up the front of the receiver where the two pop rivets can be seen. The cheek rest has shipped from the UK. I decided on the 552 replica instead of a Kobra replica due to price and availability.

 

Cheers,

Piano

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TAKE THAT EOTECH OFF! NOW!

 

Cobra or irons for soviet hardware.

 

You, sir, are taking the . If I was replicating a piece of "soviet hardware" I might consider your statement as grounded, disregarding the fact that the Kobra seemed to emerge, like the Saiga, after the collapse of the Soviet Union (the earliest timestamp I could find in posted images of the EKP-1 was 2002).

 

-Piano

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I think it's more of an 'in principle' thing. The Saiga's not Soviet, but it is (a ) Russian, (b ) Kalashnikov-based and finally (c ) manufactured by IZHMASH. These are all things held in common with most recognisable Soviet arms. Kobras are similarly Russian-designed and made, so Saiga plus Kobra is as natural as SA80 and SUSAT.

 

That said, whatever works best for you. I'm not convinced by the copper outer barrel, though - that stuff is VERY soft, so it scratches and bends easily (especially compared to steel).

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I'll keep that principle in mind. As for the copper outer barrel, it's actually surrounding a barrel extension and several layers to build up the proper outer diameter, so bending shouldn't be an issue. As for scratching, letting the right paint cure and proper prep work goes a long way.

 

-Piano

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