The 'ideal' height for a mag pouch?

[TheFull9]

Something I've been thinking about a bit recently, thought I'd put it out there to see what you folks think.  To preface, this is primarily aimed at pouches designed to hold 30 round 5.56 NATO STANAGs/PMAGs and other mags of the same dimensions.

 

Obviously if you use STANAGs there are no shortage of pouch options out there and many of them fulfill  various different requirements.  Recently I've been finding that my BFG Ten-Speeds just haven't been working as well as I'd like and reloads haven't been very smooth in-game.  Partly this is due to an issue with the PC I have them mounted on, the fact they can be a little too tight on airsoft magazines and also the issue  of many airsoft mags being shorter than their RS counterparts.  These things aside however, I think a big part of the problem is the depth/height of the pouches, they're too tall to leave a good size portion of the magazine protruding so that I can get a good, firm grip when going for a fresh ammo supply.

 

If you take a look through the rifle mag pouch section of many gear retailers who carry a wide range of brands (SKD is a good example) the pattern is plain to see; pouches for 30 rnd STANAGs are generally the same height as the average front flap on most PCs; which is around 5 rows of MOLLE (give or take some excess material at the top or bottom).  This is a bonus for retention and protection of the magazines but it often only leaves a very small segment of the mags protruding, just about enough to retain a Magpul.

 

All too often mid-game I find I've grabbed a fresh mag by that very small segment at the base and find that the open end I want to insert in to the weapon is flapping around in the breeze; obviously this is not what one wants.  Training is a factor as well of course, but when you also take in to account the issue that a pouch like the Ten-Speed hugs the mag very close to the plate pocket, you're only really left with with the small exposed areas on 3 sides of the magazine the grab (or indeed 2 sides, more later on that).  I've tried to get my thumb in there between the mag and the front face of the PC but it's just slow and fumble'y, even worse with a pouch like the BFGs.  It makes for a nice low profile setup vs. a TACO for example which tends to stick the mags out a bit further in front of your body, but that in turn creates more pivoting forces when you're swiveling or turning around quickly.  However I'd rather be able to grab a mags easily and sacrifice a few mils of extra separation between my torso and the ammo.

 

Another problem I feel to be part of the above, is the fact that if you run the standard stack of 3 mags up front on your PC they all sit too closely together and if you try to feed from the left (being right handed) i.e. the closest mag to the reaction hand, then one side you want to grip is partly obstructed by the next magazine in line.  Recently I've just been getting around this by running the middle pouch empty and just carrying less rounds, since I found I didn't need as many as I had been carrying.  Although this was an accidental solution since I originally did that due to finding it really slow & inefficient to get at that middle mag while using a 1-pt sling.

 

Going back to the heights of pouches, the other more common type you see is 3 MOLLE rows tall.  Now, I'm quite sure if a store like SKD or OpTac is selling any given pouch then it'll retain a full RS magazine no problem, so I shouldn't really shy away from using them in airsoft.. yet I find myself doing just that.

 

The handy thing about mags for electric airsoft guns is they weigh *fruitcage* all, even metal ones.  This means you can generally get away with murder retention wise, you barely need any at all to secure a plastic midcap (which is what I use mostly, along with a lot of other people from what I've seen).  That said, I like to know my pouches can safely and securely carry any airsoft mag I might choose to put in them, including heavy GBBr magazines.  Which are bloody expensive and often tricky to get a hold of, as well as being much more fragile than RS magazines; if you drop one on to concrete it's probably going to die.  To my mind the 3-row pouch exposes too much of the mag body; it's more than I need to get a beer can grip.  Too much of the mag being exposed/not protected by the pouch and a lesser surface area for retention puts me off the shorter pouches.

 

TL;DR:  So if a 5 is too much and a 3 is too little, a pouch that's 4 rows high makes the most sense to me; yet hardly anyone seems to make the damn things.  The TACO is 4 rows high and I find it to be excellent all round, FirstSpear also make a 'quick reload' M4 pouch with kydex insert which is 4 rows high and they're sending one over to me at the moment.  I think when I try it out I'm going to like it.

 

I appreciate your skirmish styles will dictate pouch choice and placement to a large extent, if you're playing with GBBr mags in the mucky woods for a long period you'll probably want to sacrifice speed for security, maybe go with a lidded pouch.  Whereas the CQB player running MAG mids can happily get away with sacrificing that security for speed.  I do believe however that (overall) the 4-row pouch is the best middle ground/compromise.

 

Any thoughts?  Agree/disagree?

[Leon Kennedy]

I'd agree, but you're right about there being a big difference between airsoft and RS shooting. I think any of us who are into RS shooting can agree that you're spot on about those things being heavy as bricks in your pouches.

I feel like it's something each person would have to test drive; I'm sitting here having trouble actually imagining a huge difference between them, but I know I can remember times where 5 row pouches have definitely felt too high on me.

[BigAl]

Magpul anyone?

[Im going space]

Tbh this is kinda a redundant question as everyone has it different for where its comfortable for them

[renegadecow]

If you find your mags being too deep in the pouches or not having enough sticking out to make an easy hold of, insert some foam rubber spacers at the bottom of the pouch. Bunched up newspaper works too, just not ideal as they're absorbent. If you make them snug to pouch dimensions, they can also help give a bit of volume on the pouches and keep them open for a while if you like to reinsert used up mags back into them instead of a dump pouch. 

[farrasdevell]

I find Fastmags do the job beautifully for me on my JPC. They have a slight outwards cant to separate rows from the inbuilt pouch. they also hold gbb mags well too.

[uscmCorps]

I've tried pretty much every pouch over the years in both airsoft and almost 2 dozen RS training courses. Some people don't have an option when it comes to what kind of duty/issue gear they can use. For me, I'm under no gear constraints so I test and ultimately use what works best for me and how I shoot.

 

* Traditional pouches: Like you said, tall pouches like the Eagle Double M4 mag pouches that were so popular a few years back, retains mags well, but give you very limited amount of surface area to grab onto.

* BFG Ten speeds: are lightweight, have good retention and are low profile. But since they're elastic that have to be tall since if the elastic was shorter it wouldn't be strong enough to retain the mags. Which means that being tall = less surface area to grab. Also, they're designed for expedience ... so the idea is that they're fast to draw from but putting mags back into the ten speed pouches can be a time suck and hard to do under stress. In RS an empty mag in a middle of a fire fight is a useless paperweight and you're *supposed* to do a speed reload ditch the empty mag and feed the gun with fresh ammo. If there are still rounds in the mag and you're doing a tac-reload then ideally you're going to want to retain that mag in the event those rounds may save your life down the road, but since Ten-Speeds are a pain in the *albatross* to insert mags back into under stress even with training, I've more often than not seen those partial mags end up in a dump pouch or just discarded altogether. In airsoft, most players will do a tac-reload even if your mag is empty. Your life isn't really on the line, and most players prioritize keeping their kit over the training value of ditching those empty mags (which is perfectly understandable).

* HSGI Tacos: I like the fact that they are incredibly versatile. I like that they retain well and are easy to draw from. They're not the shortest pouches out there, but they're not that tall either. They're short enough that there's more mag surface area to grab onto than on traditional pouches. What I don't like about them though is that when reinserting mags into Tacos, unless you rock mags into the pouches just right, there's a chance that the corners of the mag can work their way between the pouch fabric and plastic sides and get caught on the shock cord holding it altogether. Again, something experienced myself, and I've seen others do on the line (including some instructors).

* ITW Fast mags: Excellent retention. Plenty of mag surface area to grab onto. My only issues with these are that they're a little bulky for my taste and I'm not crazy about the aesthetics of them. But that has little to do with function. What I'm not crazy about with them is that in order to pull a mag out, you have to twist the mag when pulling the mag to defeat the retention. That's something you have to train for so it becomes muscle memory. That way even under stress you'll consistently do it. But I don't like that and I find it's unintuitive and uncomfortable to do repeatedly.

* Eagle Industries FB pouch: Short pouches with plenty of exposed magazine surface area. Retains well (at first). Fast to draw from. My issue with them is that the kydex lining isn't there for retention, just to keep the mag's shape and hold it open. The retention comes from the fact that they're felt lined. The problem is the felt looses it's grippiness eventually, and if the felt gets a small tear, that tear gets worse very fast making the pouch worthless in short order.

 

What I have found to work:

* FirstSpear M4 Speed Reload Pouch: I've been using those for a while now. Only 4 MOLLE tall. Plenty of mag surface area exposed. Straight draw to get the mag, and easy reinsertion. Tight enough to hold the mag in place but not so tight that it impedes drawing or reinsertion. Simple and relatively low profile.

* ESSTac KYWI Shorty Pouch: Probably one of the best M4 pouches I've used. Plenty of mag surface area exposed (3.5 MOLLE tall). Retention is great via it's innovative Kydex internal clip. Easy to draw from. Not too bulky. They come in various different configurations (single, double, triple, single with two pistol pouches in the front, or single with two pouches on the side). If I were looking at getting pouches today, these are the ones I'd get.

[ctres94]

I haven't tried the Kywis but they certainly look  like one of the best options out there right now. I like how the top of the kydex looks like it would act as a sort of ramp as you reinsert the mag. I wasn't too much of a fan of the itw fastmag I had, but mainly because the mounting system was just awful, at least for the belt version. 

 

I think the topic has been pretty well covered, but I would recommend that you try drawing first from the middle mag pouch when you are running a 3 mag shingle or kangaroo pouch. That seems to work best for me and it makes the other two much easier to get out once the first is gone. 

 

Also, I mainly think that BFG tenspeeds are good only because they are light and low profile. They really aren't much more low profile than any other single mag pouch once they have a mag in them, but you can have them on your rig sitting on top of other pouches and not normally use them. They lie totally flat so they won't be in the way, but if for some reason you need to carry more mags you can then load up and often double the number of mags you were carrying before. I think that this would generally be more applicable to real world situations than airsoft though.

[jal3]

TLDR sorry

 

I use tenspeed for airsoft. They're perfect and i haven't had any issues with loading because of that.

One of the non-obvious advantages of tenspeed pockets is that you don't have to do a 100% straight draw to get the mag out. If they're on your back and you're prone, it's a lot easier to get mags out of tenspeed that any other kind of pocket.

 

I've also used them with RS, and while i haven't dropped a mag, i'd be afraid of doing so.

 

But for airsoft, perfect imho.

[Half Trigger]

The ideal place for mag pouches- on my PC.

 

Height?- at the bottom of it furthest away from my head as possible.

[uscmCorps]

Height?- at the bottom of it furthest away from my head as possible.

 

I think you misunderstood the OPs question. He's not asking for where the pouches are supposed to be placed on the body. He's more interested in the style and length of mag pouch and how it relates to how a user manipulates a mag in and out of the mag pouch.

[DWZippy]

Following Amateur Stuntmans advice, I've made some mag-pulls myself with PTFE tape. I find that helps a whole bunch with my mag changes. I tend to use double mag pouches so I had to wrestle with the additional dimension of the second mag, if they stopped two thirds up the mag, that'd be great. 

[-wigs-]

Personally Ive found I realy like the kangaroo pouch on my 6094, I can get mags in and out in a rush and find with a magpul and keeping the insert as high up as I can there is more than enough mag to grab.

If I run more than 4 +1 mags at say longer games I run a triple ten speed up front but never try to reinsert used or half used mags.

[farrasdevell]

i've just ordered the ebairsoft6094 kangaroo insert to try out in my JPC to see if it can speed things up a bit.

[-wigs-]

The insert itself is on the short side, there is a open gap at the bottom when put in but this gives you the ability to either sink the mags lower or keep them high.

Since I'm stuck in my house due to snow I'll take a pic in a little while.

Also if eb screws you go to shootercbgear.com

They have all the tmc stuff and every order I've made has been in my hands in 4 days tops

[TheFull9]

I'd agree, but you're right about there being a big difference between airsoft and RS shooting. I think any of us who are into RS shooting can agree that you're spot on about those things being heavy as bricks in your pouches.

 

I feel like it's something each person would have to test drive; I'm sitting here having trouble actually imagining a huge difference between them, but I know I can remember times where 5 row pouches have definitely felt too high on me.

 

Well I think anyone here can relate to it, a GBBr mag whether full or empty generally weighs about the same as a loaded 30rnd STANAG, hence the issue of retention raising it's head within the airsoft arena.

 

Magpul anyone?

 

In what sense?  The original product?  I stopped actually using them for grabbing by the loops ages ago tbh, you end up with a grip that's much too low down and loose for my liking.  Makes insertion much slower in my experience.  Unless you re-adjust your grip on the mag of course but that's quite time consuming.

 

I still fit them to any mag than can accept them, but now-a-days they get wedged on as far as they'll go and are just used as an extra bit of friction.  Also to make for a more contoured/grippy surface to 'stick' to the hand.

 

Tbh this is kinda a redundant question as everyone has it different for where its comfortable for them

 

Kinda redundant response if you don't read the the post and just reply to the thread thread title home-slice.

 

If you find your mags being too deep in the pouches or not having enough sticking out to make an easy hold of, insert some foam rubber spacers at the bottom of the pouch. Bunched up newspaper works too, just not ideal as they're absorbent. If you make them snug to pouch dimensions, they can also help give a bit of volume on the pouches and keep them open for a while if you like to reinsert used up mags back into them instead of a dump pouch. 

 

True, certainly a good solution to certain situations that costs very little.  Though personally (as petty as this is) I think I'd find the aesthetics of mags not fully sitting in to the pouches to be off-putting, would just feel odd to not fully jam them in home.  I will bear this in mind more in future however because sometimes little tricks like that can make very big differences.

 

I find Fastmags do the job beautifully for me on my JPC. They have a slight outwards cant to separate rows from the inbuilt pouch. they also hold gbb mags well too.

 

Tried them, had the same mis-givings as uscm personally.  Really didn't like the twist-to-release aspect or the size/bulk of them, especially if used in multiples stacked together.

 

Not that they're not a very good product overall, but for myself, the TACO does a slightly better job for the same sort of price (plus having the adaptability).  I know a fair few people rave about them though so yeah.  Variable mileage and all that.

 

I've tried pretty much every pouch over the years in both airsoft and almost 2 dozen RS training courses. Some people don't have an option when it comes to what kind of duty/issue gear they can use. For me, I'm under no gear constraints so I test and ultimately use what works best for me and how I shoot.

 

* Traditional pouches: 

* BFG Ten speeds: 

* HSGI Tacos:

* ITW Fast mags: 

* Eagle Industries FB pouch: 

 

What I have found to work:

* FirstSpear M4 Speed Reload Pouch: I've been using those for a while now. Only 4 MOLLE tall. Plenty of mag surface area exposed. Straight draw to get the mag, and easy reinsertion. Tight enough to hold the mag in place but not so tight that it impedes drawing or reinsertion. Simple and relatively low profile.

* ESSTac KYWI Shorty Pouch: Probably one of the best M4 pouches I've used. Plenty of mag surface area exposed (3.5 MOLLE tall). Retention is great via it's innovative Kydex internal clip. Easy to draw from. Not too bulky. They come in various different configurations (single, double, triple, single with two pistol pouches in the front, or single with two pouches on the side). If I were looking at getting pouches today, these are the ones I'd get.

 

Extremely insightful as always.

 

I only put mags in to TACOs in the safe zone, and I do still get the occasional slip as you say, but I guess using a dump pouch negates that aspect so I'm a big fan of them overall.  Apart from the mounting that is, the webbing on the back is just too damn tight.  I've never managed to thread a MALICE back through the pouch after going through the platform I'm mounting to, i.e. the point where you're going back through the same slot as the mag's bungee cord.  Though even without doing that, they've always stayed very much in their place.

 

Have you tried the Tyr equivalents?  Because I much prefer their mounting strap setup, but nobody seems to run them that I've spotted.  Which in turn makes me wonder if they've got some fundamental flaw, perhaps related to using webbing around the sides instead of plastic or something along those lines.

 

Glad you mentioned that problem with the Eagle FBs because they were looking quite appealing before then.  My brother has a set of the pistol versions which I always found strange when I tried them out.  Can't fathom going to all that effort to sew kydex in there and then not at least shape it slightly to act as another form of retention.  You'd have though extensive, high-repetition/long term T&E would highlight the fact that the felt wears out and stops gripping.

 

Personally I'd have to go for the FS pockets over the ESSTac, primarily because of the mounting system tbh.  Some larger multi-mag shingles and GP pouches I've found to be ok with MALICE, but the smaller the pouch gets the more of a pain I've found them (and more of a degrading factor to the base platform).  The pistol TACO especially has really been a nightmare in my experience.  The FS pocket has the 6/12 option which I really like, a bit more coverage to protect the mags and I just prefer the aesthetic as an extra little bonus.

 

Following Amateur Stuntmans advice, I've made some mag-pulls myself with PTFE tape. I find that helps a whole bunch with my mag changes. I tend to use double mag pouches so I had to wrestle with the additional dimension of the second mag, if they stopped two thirds up the mag, that'd be great. 

 

Look up Regulation Tactical and bookmark them.  They don't ship outside the US right now but they say they're planning on it, at which point you might want to check out one of their products.

 

Alternatively I'd say go for some double stacked TACOs or even just some shingles like these which are a bit shorter.  You've been experiencing essentially the same issue I have.

[uscmCorps]

Oh, my other issue with Tacos, is that to reinsert mags into Tacos, you're supposed to get a corner into the top opening and rock the rest of the mag into the pouch. Which isn't too hard ... except when you have multiple Tacos immediately side by side together. If you try to rock a mag into a Taco and if there's a mag in the next pouch over, I inherently find that rocking motion is blocked by the other mag and thereby impedding my mag reinsertion.

 

I have not had any experience with the TYR Taco type pouches but friends have and said they're better and nicer than the HSGI Taco (FWIW).

 

RenegadeCow made a good suggestion regarding the notion that you can shove some foam or paper at the bottom of mags. I find this is especially valid if you're running standard AEG mags (i.e. not GBBR, PTS, SOPMOD mags) as AEG mags are a little shorter than real AR15 mags. So shoving some kind of spacer into the bottom of the mag will give you a more accurate mag height position within the pouch and therefore more mag surface area contact to manipulate.

 

I've got a lot of different kit that I've amassed over the years. So when you come visit, you can check it all out. It's like gearWhore heaven here.

[-wigs-]

As promised

Tmc 6094 kargaroo pouch

 

Since its a short pouch you have about an inch of movement up or down when it's fit to the pocket.

You can see the space at the top, that's open room

[TheFull9]

Oh, my other issue with Tacos, is that to reinsert mags into Tacos, you're supposed to get a corner into the top opening and rock the rest of the mag into the pouch. Which isn't too hard ... except when you have multiple Tacos immediately side by side together. If you try to rock a mag into a Taco and if there's a mag in the next pouch over, I inherently find that rocking motion is blocked by the other mag and thereby impeding my mag reinsertion.

 

I have not had any experience with the TYR Taco type pouches but friends have and said they're better and nicer than the HSGI Taco (FWIW).

 

RenegadeCow made a good suggestion regarding the notion that you can shove some foam or paper at the bottom of mags. I find this is especially valid if you're running standard AEG mags (i.e. not GBBR, PTS, SOPMOD mags) as AEG mags are a little shorter than real AR15 mags. So shoving some kind of spacer into the bottom of the mag will give you a more accurate mag height position within the pouch and therefore more mag surface area contact to manipulate.

 

I've got a lot of different kit that I've amassed over the years. So when you come visit, you can check it all out. It's like gearWhore heaven here.

 

Since I got my LM4 I've really been racking my brains about how I'm going to need to change up my gear to deal optimally with the increased weight of the magazines.  I've historically run TACOs and TenSpeeds (for the most part) with a dump pouch and that worked well for skirmishing AEGs & EBBRs, but I don't reckon a couple of KGs of GBBr mags bouncing around in a dumper is going to fly; just sounds like a bad idea for a lot of different reason.

 

I'm certainly not going to drop mags that cost ~£40 on the ground in CQB (does anyone in a skirmish?), because I'd never have a penny to spend on anything else but magazines and that sounds like a very boring life.  So with the dump pouch eliminated that just leaves the option of reinsertion to the mag pouches, which I know from experience isn't going to work with TenSpeeds (ignoring the previous issue with their height when drawing) and as you say TACOs aren't the pouch to go for when reinserting as part of one's drills.  I'll still go with HSGI/Tyr TACOs for various electric guns, but I'm only running STANAGs with GBBRs anyway so it's no loss to have to use specific AR/L85 pouches when fielding gas.  Either way, I think the crux of the matter is there's no possible setup which is optimally fast in terms of usage with Electric and Gas rifles; the weight of an empty GBB mag vs an empty RS throws a fair sized spanner in the works.

 

So if someone wants fast access, plenty of space to grab, retention of heavy mags and quick+easy reinsertion, that leaves them with the ESSTac and FS offerings by the looks of it.  Or at least that's working out to be the best idea in my head at this moment in time.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing how the Reflex pouch does with airsoft mags and I'm quite tempted to pick up a G-Code RTM, but they'd only be quick every second magazine and then extremely slow every other; just like taped mags or basically any other mag linkage device (taking in to account the airsoft restriction of keeping the things on your person once they're empty).

[-wigs-]

I've found running a dump is fine up to 6 mags.

Just make sure it has the elastic around the opening and tighten

It.

[TheFull9]

With GBBR mags?  If you find that manageable that's good don't get me wrong, but in game I've always found the weight makes them sway around a lot, even with just a couple of pistol mags let alone anything bigger.  Not to mention cause really awkward weight distribution that drags on the belt.  The LM4 mags in particular weigh more than any of the other systems' magazines (to my knowledge).

[Danke]

Can you stuff the empties into your shirt, between you vest, into pants pockets etc?

[ctres94]

Yeah, big trouser cargo pockets are a good place and the mags won't flop around quite as much as in a dumper. Also, and dumper is still a somewhat viable option, but you probably won't want to completely load it up with mags that heavy. There really is a reason that people run a speed reload pouch or two as well as standard pouches for their primary. Doing so allows you to have a high speed pouch to draw from under stress should you need it, then when you have a lull in the fight just shuffle your farther mag from your reaction hand into the speed reload pouch and put the spent mag that was in your pocket or dump pouch into the pouch far away from your reaction hand. That way you should always have a mag at the ready, and it minimizes the number of mags that you have in your dump pouch or pocket at any given time.

 

Depending on where you want to run the speed reload pouch will determine what kind you may want to get. If you are going for belt mounted on your reaction hand side then something kydex would be good IMO, probably the esstac kywi or just a straight up kydex mag carrier from bladetech or any other brand that makes that sort of stuff. Then something like a three mag shingle or kangaroo pouch across the front, and throw some tenspeeds on top of that if you like. 

 

All in all I don't see why you would ever need speed reload type mags (whether they be kydex, tenspeeds, tacos, etc) for every primary mag. Proper technique will allow you to get away with one or two, maybe three at the most. I guess in theory you could just run something like short kywis all over your PC but it would be bulky and unrealistic.

[TheFull9]

Can you stuff the empties into your shirt, between you vest, into pants pockets etc?

 

Wouldn't be for me personally.  Not to discount the idea, but I always avoid putting heavy items in my trouser pockets (for various personal reasons).  Not really any room between my chest and PC and I never wear a shirt with pockets large enough unfortunately which pretty much puts a stopper on that idea.

 

ctres - Appreciate the input, given me more to think about which I always like.

 

Going from gun -> dumper -> mag pouches again is a good idea, especially when talking about GBBRs.  Never crossed my mind for some reason, I think that'll work well though.  Runs in line in with the same reloading I use for electric guns when the mag runs dry which is always a plus.  The bit that's done fast actually remains the same, just involves some re-shuffling later on.

 

I see what you're saying with regards not exclusively using speed reload pouches, but for a loadout where I'm only carrying maybe 4 mags I don't see that as a problem.  1 on the belt then 2 on the PC isn't excessive or bulky to my mind.  Especially with how light some of them are, the FirstSpear Speed reload M4 I had arrive yesterday weighs about the same as a 1000D shingle at the most.

[Danke]

Mags tucked in a vest or map pocket get treated just like the mags from the dump; in other words cycled back into the mag pouches during a lull.

 

You don't use shirt pockets. You drop them into the top of your BDU. To do that you need some sort of tied off waist so they don't fall out.

 

All that said I am considering putting something like a Helium Whisper dump pouch. It looks non-bulky which is why I ditched the pouch.