Revolver half moon clips

[Corkie121]

Hi all, 

 

Having recently acquired a Dan Wesson revolver, I've been thinking of ways to improve its performance and usability.

 

The obvious ones like reducing fps, installing a hop up, refinishing the horrendous grey coating and painting the iron sights have all been done, which really just leaves the shells and loading to be improved in speed, cost and ease.

 

My cunning plan which has required just about zero original thinking from me, is to use moon clips that have been specially made for airsoft revolvers (currently don't exist but bare with me). For those of you who are unsure, here is what a moon clip is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_clip

 

Ideally they are used for rimless cartridges, however it is possible to use them with conventional rimmed ammunition (usually with modification to the cylinder) such as the shells supplied with the airsoft Wingun/Wesson revolver. By using sheet steel around 0.5mm (0.02") thick to make the clips, it should allow the shells to load and fire normally without modification in the Wingun revolver, removing the risk of losing shells on reloading and making the whole process quicker. 

 

It should also be a lot cheaper, with the average set of 6 shells + speed loader costing around £12, against a pack of 25 shells for £20 (Wolf Armouries). This of course depends on how much moon clips designed for airsoft would cost to produce.

 

Which leads me to my main point: Does anyone think that there would be a demand for these clips amongst players who use these revolvers (or have been put off by the price of reloading them) and does anyone spot any glaring errors or oversights that I may have made?

 

To address issues that I have already spotted:

 

The clips would have to be of the half moon variety (3 round) to avoid fouling on the frame upon removal/insertion into the cylinder. Anyone who has used one of these revolvers will know that all of the shells do not eject smoothly together, leaving a couple trapped half out of the cylinder nearest the frame. Using a half moon clip (plus additional design points shown in the diagram lower down) removes this issue and also allows for a half reload, ideal for not wasting 6 shells when reloading after firing 3 etc.

 

'The tolerances would have to be very high to keep a tight grip on the shells' you cry. They would, however my intention in planning and designing the airsoft specific version was to put the shells in the clips with a little epoxy (reversible if you have a pair of pliers and a vice) in order to semi permanently bond the clip and shells into one reloadable unit and 'play it safe' against losing them. Personally I feel this idea would work quite well as you would have easier to handle, harder to drop blocks of shells rather than fiddly and losable single shells, which really are just a liability when on their own.

 

Here's a pretty picture of what the clips would look like:

 

 

So there's my idea/plan/case, any comments or criticism would be great, especially if anyone has any experience with batch manufacturing, as I've contacted a manufacturer but haven't heard back just yet.

 

Cheers!

 

Corkie

 

 

 

[Kenworth W900]

One obvious (at least to me) criticism, of your half moon clips, is that a decent majority of airsoft revolver users do it for the fun/cool factor (when compared to the relative practicality of an automatic). Wherein the use of shells is part of the revolver experience, which these semi-permanent clips seem to be at odds with.

[Corkie121]

This is true, but at the same time, if real revolvers use them and people are happy to use speed loaders (not single shells as such) then maybe it could be in keeping with the general revolver novelty theme.

 

The only real reason to not make them removable from the clips is to reduce the chance of losing them and also the fact that they don't need to be replaced with a new shell after use as they're not just empty brass like the real versions, but this would all be end user choice I suppose, depending on just how accurate my measurements of the shells are

 

Cheers

[renegadecow]

No need to epoxy the shells on the clips. They are in fact very much jiggy for real guns, and for a good purpose: loose tolerances means they'll go in smoother in case of a snag or stuck debris. I've been contemplating making some for my revolvers, but as you've mentioned, require modification on pretty much all of them to work. To which, if it requires you to modify the Win Gun cylinder to use moon clips then it's safe to say very few will even consider having it done due to the increased cost of machining as well as shipping. Cheaper to go with jet loaders or speed strips.

[scorch]

If we could get a reliable list of which speed loaders fit an which don't, that would be awesome.

 

I have a safari land one that is no good for me. The shells fit, but they are too far apart by a couple of mm.

[Tom Andrews]

If they were stamped out of mild steel or even spring steel the individual cost would be pence. but the cost of the die to do the cutting quite a bit.

 

If it were me, I would make a few by hand out of 0.5mm ABS sheet, by stacking several layers together, lightly super gluing the edges, marking the centres of the cartridges, drilling with slowly increasing sized drills, then filing the inside and out side faces.

 

This way you could test that it works and it is practical without stumping up cash for a limited appeal item, or if it has an appeal, finding it mass produced in China within a week.

[renegadecow]

Die cut if you plan to make them by the thousand. Hundreds and a CNC laser cutter will be cheaper.

[Dagonet]

Looked into this when i got mine.

 

Real Moon clips are fairly cheap £3-4 each and require a tool to insert and remove shells, also cheap, can be done by hand but easier with the tool,  and for airsoft once clipped that's it.

 

However,  real cylinders require machine work to enable the use of Moon Clips, or the shells will foul rotation of the cylinder.   The cost of the work wasn't worth it and i only found links to American gunsmiths.   I suspect it could be done here in England but would expect a higher cost due to the long term lack of available firearms over here,  thus minimal requirements of anyone wanting the work done.

 

Going for half moons is a good move.  I always have a single shell hangup on the cylinder stop when ejecting.

 

Geared up for jets now.  Handfull of wingun and 4 Safariland's,  also have some Seidler Jets but same problem as Scorch,  the shells fit the Jet but are slightly wider spaced so won't push into the cylinder.

 

If the moon's function without modifying the cylinder,  then might be interested.

 

For those unsure what we mean.  A real cylinder has a recess machined into it to allow the moon clip to sit flush with the cylinder,  if it sit's on top the shells sit higher and the cylinder might not close or it might jam due to lack of headspace.

 

Benefits of real useage,  mostly a competition thing IPSC style.

Faster eject,  the weight of all 6 shells reduces single shell hangups,  easier pick up,  cluster of 6-8 shells against finding singles.

Faster reload,  chamfer cylinders as well,  no jet to drop (and pick up later) easier to carry more clips,  some of the competiton carriage systems are quite interesting.

Time savings are fractions of a second,  but in IPSC thats what your after.

 

[Dagonet]

Link to a demo video on a real cylinder of machine work,  may be of interest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TnL]

One of ht e local guys here actually JBwelded his shells together in sets of 6 so they just drop into the gun as is

[Dagonet]

Excellent photo there TnL

 

Never thought about trying that.  I suppose you could also solder the shells together as their brass......  hmmmm 

[renegadecow]

That would work. And the cylinder already has the recess for it so no modification needed. Just using hot glue gun might even do it.

[Corkie121]

Great picture from TnL there, looks like a really good alternative that I'm honestly quite tempted by. 

 

To address the issue of modifying the cylinder, I had worried that it would require a hacksaw to remove the thickness of the clip from the back of the cylinder in order for it to work correctly, which would mean it could only function properly using moon clips from then on. However, due to the design on the Wingun version, the cylinder is quite happy to move forwards by around 1 or 2mm before it stops rotating and ejecting correctly, meaning that it could most likely accept a 0.5mm clip behind it quite happily. 

 

Either way, I shall inform you all of costs etc when I get a quote back and I'll go from there. If it's really expensive, then Jb welding/Magic metal to join the shells is probably the better option.

 

Cheers

[paranoiddroid]

trick I saw for reloading from an old police revolver comp shooter was to have a cheapy offbrand desert eagle .357mag magazine handy and when reloading just thumb the shells from mag to cylinder. I know its not really in the spirit of this project but I thought it was worth a go and will be acquiring a mag soon to try it. also how did you manage to put a hop in the thing?

[Rob15]

If the clips are only going to be 0.5mm thick then on a small scale CNC laser cutting from sheet steel will be your best bet, machining them isn't at all practical for such a small/thin part.

 

Laser cutting from plastic using smaller laser engraver/cutters wouldn't be practical either, the majority of plastics that thin simply melt (I know, I've tried) and the ones which do cut reasonably well aren't at all rigid.