Rules vs. Requirements

[IBMedic]

All around the world airsoft is played with all kinds of rules, parley, minimum engagement distance, "freeze" or "bang bang" etc etc.

Most of these rely on the premise that BBs are more dangerous, pack significantly more energy at close range.

Now, scientifically on ASM they've proven this not true.  Especially with heavier BBs the energy loss between muzzle and 10 meters is actually quite small, less than 10%.  So getting shot a close range is actually not significantly more painful than from medium ranges.

So I'm thinking, rather than imposing these behavioral rules on players, why not simply regulate what they wear?

Full facemasks and hard protection gloves should be a minimum requirement.  Eyes, teeth and fingers are the only places where one can suffer potentially permanent damage.  Any other place and it will just hurt a lot.

Of course, you can choose to go with just goggles and no face cover, in which case you lose the right to complain when someone knocks your teeth out with a 0.36g out their VSR 10

So what do you all think?  Regulate behavior or regulate equipment?  Assuming you had to choose one or the other.

[renegadecow]

Sure. Very scientific.

 

The bb weight discrepancy discussed there is primarily to do with shooting various weigh bbs in an AEG where energy output is relatively uniform. Try getting hit up close by a >3J gas gun/over volumed AEG using very heavy ammo or by a sniper rifle tuned for >100m engagement and you'll see why places put up MEDs. And besides, you're in Hong Kong where all they really play is CQB with a uniform power ceiling on all guns so you're not gonna legally come across the guns that can actually seriously hurt you.

 

As for the bang rule, it's mostly to do with preventing people from being stitched up. A single hit up close with a 400fps gun will "just hurt" but not everyone has substantial trigger discipline and could easily light someone up on full auto just because some spaz froze up while squeezing on the trigger.

[IBMedic]

Sure. Very scientific.

 

The bb weight discrepancy discussed there is primarily to do with shooting various weigh bbs in an AEG where energy output is relatively uniform. Try getting hit up close by a >3J gas gun/over volumed AEG using very heavy ammo or by a sniper rifle tuned for >100m engagement and you'll see why places put up MEDs. And besides, you're in Hong Kong where all they really play is CQB with a uniform power ceiling on all guns so you're not gonna legally come across the guns that can actually seriously hurt you.

 

As for the bang rule, it's mostly to do with preventing people from being stitched up. A single hit up close with a 400fps gun will "just hurt" but not everyone has substantial trigger discipline and could easily light someone up on full auto just because some spaz froze up while squeezing on the trigger.

Oh jeebus christos where did that pic come from and for the love of god what a hardcore SOB for taking one (or 5) in the name of science!

 

You're right that a full auto burst to the soft parts is unpleasant, but this is airsoft, we bear the risk every time we play.  The point I want to make is that when you impose these behavioral rules, it puts the responsibility on other players rather than yourself.  And we should always take responsibility for our own safety.  

 

If we choose not to wear enough to protect ourselves, we can't blame others for getting shot and having it hurt.

[renegadecow]

You need to put safety elements on both sides. For example, you require all players to use full face masks and at the same time allow blind firing because said players' faces will be completely protected. What if the equipment fails? A buckle comes off or garter band snaps, then you have the muzzle of a weapon come straight at you around a corner.

[IBMedic]

You need to put safety elements on both sides. For example, you require all players to use full face masks and at the same time allow blind firing because said players' faces will be completely protected. What if the equipment fails? A buckle comes off or garter band snaps, then you have the muzzle of a weapon come straight at you around a corner.

What if you walk outside tomorrow and get hit by a bus?  What if you're driving and your brake cable snaps, what if you're in an elevator and the cables break... what if oh what if...

 

Wear good kit, it doesn't have to be expensive, it doesn't have to be gucci, just eyes, face, fingers.  And leave the rest to God, Allah or the flying spaghetti monster to decide.

 

Blind firing in close quarters is a generally bad idea though, that I agree.

[FireKnife]

You can't really say one or the other.

 

Players need to both be concious about what they wear but also how they are safe around others. It is an impossible task though to assume that all players will take it on and both marshals and other players must do their best to understand what is and isn't acceptable. To say 'which should we enforce' isn't going to help as quite simply both are needed.

 

As for what ifs this has been discussed over and over again it is not an issue until that one day when it happens. One day it might or it may never but potential is always there.

 

'FireKnife'

[Isamu]

We have MEDs here in spain for every role/power output, starting from a 0 to 5m Bang rule, and some fields require mandatory mouth protection among other things, I think both are necessary as renegade cow states, and maybe I am an old geezer who just want to play and shoot people white stuff (insert unending jokes here) I like a bit of risk in the game, but not so much as not having some safety rules for both parts.

 

There are allways sons of pickles who like to shoot to the head or have trigger diarrea, thats why there are safety rules for both parties and marshalls, to minimize unnecesary risks

 

This is a game, and games must be fun and safe

[tquilha]

Rules in airsoft don't have to be based on science, they DO have to be based on common sense.

 

I airsoft to have some fun and to be able to shoot my friends WITHOUT consequences for me or them,

 

For now, MED, surrender, or "bang" rules have worked pretty well.

 

Allowing blind fire in any situation is a bad thing, and it will lead to more than bruised egos.

 

Thanks, but no thanks.

[IBMedic]

I think if you're playing in a region where the turnover rate for players is low then behavior based rules are more viable.

In Hong Kong it's rare to play with the same people.  Turnover rate is super high and everyone has their own versions of these rules.  Worst part is that most teams don't bother explaining them beforehand and disputes invariably ensue.  Every game I go to with large groups there's always some argument breaking out about someone shoot more or closer or harder or whatever than he should have been and blah blah blah...  

 

Rather ironic that men who claim to be doing a hardcore militaristic, and inherently masculine sport would be so tender when it comes to taking a few nicks from pieces of plastic.  I mean if they're going to impersonate a professional soldier with a full Gucci loadout, you would expect them not to complain "mommy it hurt!!!"

[Isamu]

not everyone impersonate and even if it is a masculine-ish sport, like, for example football, nobody wants to be hurt, some tackles and bruises are fine until someone tackles an ankle, that really hurts. Airsoft is the same, some bruises and hits are fine, we deal with it, but a shot to sensitive zones (any head part) can be nasty and certainly not fun for anyone. Safety rules are there to minimize those nasty situations

 

Now, want a manly sport with few to no safety rules? try chess

[sigma3]

I play airsoft with relaxed safety rules or no MED with players I know and trust in small groups.  In a general admission crowd, *fruitcage* no.  I feel envious of you if you haven't run into the kind of idiots that make those safety rules necessary, but I sure have.

[IBMedic]

I think people are missing the point.

If you want to play with behavioral rules, then fine.  If you feel that it's effective and doesn't lead to more arguments on the field than it's worth.

And lots of fields/teams enforce these.

But I have yet to see a field enforce minimum requirements on protection, which seems like a much easier thing to to enforce and far more effective in limiting bodily damage.

[FireKnife]

I think people are missing the point.

 

If you want to play with behavioral rules, then fine.  If you feel that it's effective and doesn't lead to more arguments on the field than it's worth.

 

And lots of fields/teams enforce these.

 

But I have yet to see a field enforce minimum requirements on protection, which seems like a much easier thing to to enforce and far more effective in limiting bodily damage.

 

But then you run into a set of pitfalls:

 

1. What is sufficient, should we all be running around looking like we work for the typical police bomb squad on a call or just perhaps add some knee pads and maybe a full face mask?

2. How do you enforce it, do you say to people no mask, no play or do you offer it as an incentive?

3. Do you see people actually not taking off this gear if the weather gets too hot or adding more which restricts movement when it is cold?

4. You will still get the players that think 'sod that, protection is for idiots' and still behave badly wearing what ever they feel like, they are still paying the sites fees.

 

You do have a lot to think about trying to enforce a minimum gear or dress code. Best we have here is eye pro is a minimum, full face, good boots and kneepads are recommended the rest is optional.

 

It is about all you will get as some people just don't bother and yet the actual number of games to safety incidents is a bit like a fatal car crash. You may get one in the entire country on one day when upwards of 100-200 sites are playing but when it hits the public domain everyone soon knows about it. While it would be nice to see some players take more of a mind to safety some just wont, no matter what you enforce and if you enforce too much people just wont turn up.

 

'FireKnife'

[Counting Count]

Eye protection and footware with ankle support is mandatory at just about all sites, where there are images of people wearing trainers its generally after they have been cautioned to there dress (usually having to sign documents to say they have been cautioned and know the risks of continuing without wearing footware with ankle support).

 

Its well known that a group of people will be based on the lowest IQ divided by the size of the group, making mist large groups basically morons, expecting a large group to comply with informal, none standard un communicated requirements will not happen.

 

There are a set of quite standardised rules and requirements across the world for this game, you will find they do vary based on the legislation from country to country (or in the case of the US) County to County before eve state to state.

 

90% of the rules and requirements are designed to protect people or mitigate damage to peoples well being.

 

 

 

 

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[IBMedic]

Eye protection and footware with ankle support is mandatory at just about all sites, where there are images of people wearing trainers its generally after they have been cautioned to there dress (usually having to sign documents to say they have been cautioned and know the risks of continuing without wearing footware with ankle support).

 

Its well known that a group of people will be based on the lowest IQ divided by the size of the group, making mist large groups basically morons, expecting a large group to comply with informal, none standard un communicated requirements will not happen.

 

There are a set of quite standardised rules and requirements across the world for this game, you will find they do vary based on the legislation from country to country (or in the case of the US) County to County before eve state to state.

 

90% of the rules and requirements are designed to protect people or mitigate damage to peoples well being.

 

 

 

 

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That's exactly it.  You can't enforce behavior rules easily.  If you set a MED of 1 meter, how can people judge 1 meter and agree on it on the spot?  More often than not you'll just have 1 guy shooting the other guy who thought it was MED and can't shoot, other guy had a slightly shorter definition of "3 meters".  It's better not to have them to begin with.  Less frustration, arguments and WTF moments.

[DarkLite]

I think the biggest issue in HK is that NO ONE does a chrono check at the beginning of the day as a matter of course.

 

The one game I did go to where I was asked to chrono guns was just after the police raided UnCompany, and for a game where the limit was stated at 1.5j (400fps with a 0.2g), I had to tell a quarter of the players they couldn't use their guns as they were well above the limit.

And all of those players bar one went and used them anyway. No marshalls at HK sites, after all.

 

IBMedic, you're coming at the problem from the wrong side.

 

1) Sites should enforce chrono at the beginning of the day, and there should be a hard line on this. Above the limit? Go away, no play for you today.
2) Sites should hire marshalls. At the very least, one for each side of a game. Ideally one for every 5-10 players.

3) Sites should give a clear safety briefing. No blind firing, semi auto only at close range (<5m), MED for higher powered sniper rifles and DMRs, no overkill.

4) Cheaters should be booted.

 

So far I have yet to see a single game site in HK meet these requirements. These are considered the baseline in the UK and playing in the UK is better as a result - it's literally a different *fruitcage* planet.

 

Get all of that sorted and if there are still problems we can talk about mandatory full face protection.

[renegadecow]

If you set a MED of 1 meter

You're a bloody idiot if you set an MED at one meter. They usually begin out at 20m. Plus marshals do the job of sorting out players getting too close to keep them from stitching each other up. Where I play, if a marshal sees that two individuals are literally at a corner from each other but at the same time don't know of each others presence from being sneaky, he will call both out to prevent them from accidentally jamming the pointy end of their guns into each other or panic firing and stitching each other up.

[FireKnife]

I think this thread may fall into that whole 'well in our country we.....' as much of the things discussed here do happen in the UK, players are advised on a minimum safety requirement, many sites do chronoing or at least spot checks and employ even a small group to marshal the event.

 

This however is still not without its flaws, firstly you have times where the marshals will be mates with members of a team and allow them to cheat, you will have players that have quick change ways of upping FPS yet also avoiding the chrono, you will have people that don't have their safety equipment checked and it can break. As much as you can try and prevent things you can either go full bubble wrap or you can give a set of rules, say this is the basics anything else is really up to you.

 

While as DarkLite points out that in the UK we have the things that HK seems to lack it is far from perfect. Even here we have a site near me that has never had a chrono at it, never had a marshal, has had hot guns running that are boasted about, has very unstable playing areas and finally is run like a kind of playground where it is all about being on the owners team or you will lose and be cheated against. It then comes down to the attitude of players and that of the site, if both are good then all is good but if even one of them isn't it wont be fun for those that don't push the rules.

 

'FireKnife'

[leothelion]

Ive never played a site with the bang rule. It seems stupid! If your close enough to shout bang then your close enough to shot a BB into center mass causing no real pain or need to double tap/over kill. At the Mall we just shoot each other not matter how close,

 

However,

 

every gun is chrono'd and if its even slightly hot it doesnt get used. All passing guns get a tag and can be called up for re-chrono at any point. There is only a few areas for full auto. Ive played at sites where they allow full auto everywhere and I hate them. Too much over kill! (cqb wise) - Woodland is different.

Eye protection is a must anywhere but safty zone. Full face is recommended but not essential (if you get your teeth blown out its your own fault)

 

Thats why you sign a form to agree to these measures before you get to play.

[Wild_XIII]

The bang rule is a sensible rule for places like my local site. There's a lot of rentals there, mainly kids, who don't like getting shot at point blank. Not that it helps sometimes. Last game I had somebody from 5 feet put a burst into the side of my head even though we were standing next to each other! Another friend of mine also took 4 rounds across his forehead from another guy at the same sort of range.

 

If people had more trigger control/sense to switch to semi then I wouldn't get so off with other players.

 

At the end of the day, we all take a risk if we don't wear full face. I've seen people lose teeth, yet I generally don't wear a face mask.

[Redshirt 1-7]

Rules need to be enforced, but for me more loose rules always seem to flow better, save the complex stuff for the big events...make them wear glasses or goggles, recommend mouthguards, gloves and masks, then let it go.

 

If you have to actually consider anything other than showing up, playing and being honorable, I think it's too complex and unenforceable. MEDs are a self-invented problem (we allow high energy, then disallow ourselves the right to shoot other players) which is in most cases unnecessary...if it's too problematic you add an optional surrender range. The fact is even low-power CQB can draw blood, breaks nails and teeth, and bruises you, so if you're not prepared to face that even in a sub-1j environment, you should be playing nerf. People have different tolerances for pain and variable bruising/skin tearing threshholds so to cover everyone you would need to water down everything.

 

I hate to sound like a meathead, but if you're not man enough to deal with the concept of being hit painfully and possibly receiving small scarring, this is the wrong sport. I used to think MEDs were fine but playing without them has always been more fun and fluid for me. Ask me, I've played 350 FPS CQB with 25 foot MED...once you've gone that far down the toilet you become a heartless executioner of newbies like me

[Danke]

This is kind of all over the map.

 

Sites out in HK won't let players wear gloves and face masks?

 

Somebody muzzle stamped another player so we should abolish MEDs now?

 

Getting warmer?

[Redshirt 1-7]

This is kind of all over the map.

 

Sites out in HK won't let players wear gloves and face masks?

 

Somebody muzzle stamped another player so we should abolish MEDs now?

 

Getting warmer?

 

Hm. I think I took too long writing that and forgot the point of this thread. I should stop writing posts on two different boards at once...

 

Essentially, my perspective boils down to this: The rules need to take into account a worst case scenario, as you can't expect every last person to always get it right even with the best of intentions. Face and hand protection is obviously recommended...if players fail to use it then whatever happens is on them. You can't regulate people to be smart, if it's too much trouble you force them to work with less energy so that you have to be abnormally close to someone to do any real harm.

 

My CQB place's rules are like this...wear mask and gloves, otherwise shut up and deal with it. We have safety rules but you can't go in thinking it will be held to by everyone, and it's hard to either get people to downgrade their guns or else accept complex rules. Neither is ideal but given the choice by the OP's question, I would take forced low energy/safety rule implementation over forced equipment usage. Nobody likes those fields that make everyone use specific paintball mask models...

[osirisorion]

Random chrono spot checks at respawn certainly puts a stop to FPS cheats. I have only caught one player cheating

[Inari]

There is a difference between not minding being shot, and enjoying it. I don't enjoy being shot - it's not pleasant, but it's part of the game and so I accept that. If someone offers me the opportunity to not be shot, then they're a cool guy in my book. I don't personally want to cause people pain; this is a game...not life and death. If I only have a headshot on someone, I'll offer them a bang kill. If they don't take it, I'll take the shot. I would like people to do the same for me, not because I'm too much of a wuss to take being shot in the face, but because it's a nice thing to do.

 

Anyway, regarding rules versus equipment - rules exist to legislate against a possible problem, whereas limiting equipment only serves to mitigate its effects; its the equivalent to treating individual symptoms as opposed to the whole - you miss the bigger picture. People being shot point blank in the face; more equipment! People fighting on-site; sparring padding! See the problem? You need both. There is minimum PPE (personal protection equipment) required for reasonable risk on-site, so that covers your footwear and eye-wear. Pretty much everything else is down to you as an individual to assess. I would rather have people not fire at 59 BB's/sec at 327 FPS (w/0.20g BB) on full auto at sub 5 ft, than wear a juggernaut suit to compensate for that kind of play.