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coolurjets

PTS closing down?

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I think he meant a problem as in being fitted to real steel weapons and tarnishing the Magpul reputation.

 

In that case, I don't believe there was ANYONE was cloning PMAGs which fit RS. LOL !! :bounce:

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In that case, I don't believe there was ANYONE was cloning PMAGs which fit RS. LOL !! :bounce:

 

Actually, Magpul is suing a couple companies that are doing just that (well, at least in their eyes).

 

http://soldiersystems.net/2013/07/25/magpul-sues-4-magazine-manufacturers-for-patent-infringement/

 

Afaik, the "GMAG" (European produced PMAG) was actually an unlicensed clone. But my memory's a bit fuzzy on that one.

 

On the main topic; I'm wondering how things will work out with the RM4 release, considering it's loaded with Magpul.

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Actually, Magpul is suing a couple companies that are doing just that (well, at least in their eyes).

 

http://soldiersystems.net/2013/07/25/magpul-sues-4-magazine-manufacturers-for-patent-infringement/

 

Afaik, the "GMAG" (European produced PMAG) was actually an unlicensed clone. But my memory's a bit fuzzy on that one.

 

On the main topic; I'm wondering how things will work out with the RM4 release, considering it's loaded with Magpul.

 

 

Any pics?  Were they actual clones? Or just similar looking magazines?

 

EDIT:  Found some pics.  Are these considered clones? or just similar?  And I googled "GMAG".  uh.. DEFINATELY NOT WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR!  I see what you did there!

 

Ok. In all seriousness, found some info on them GMAGS:

 

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?1066-G-MAGS-The-German-P-MAG

 

Apparently they were licensed from Magpul?  Or am I wrong?

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Not to go off on a tangent here, but I did a bit more research.  Some say G-Mags were licensed clones and others say they weren't.  The interesting thing is, Oberland (the manufacturer of G-Mags) is not on the list of companies being sued by Magpul for PMAG design infringement.  Hmmmm.

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I think you are allowed to be 80% externally similar to the other product, you could argue that the follower design and section of the mag that fits in the magwell and the mag catch are a big enough difference between them. Also it's for a totally different weapon so that maybe has a bearing on it as well.

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So on the clone note... saw some guy sell these today on a local forum.. lol... 

 

MBUS PRO Clones.  Again, like the XTM Handstops, released before the real ones:

 

mbuspro_zps97dd2cda.jpg

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When Novekse says 'real' are you thinking PTS instead of RS?  Because I'd be pretty surprised to PTS releasing the MBUS Pro now, given the Magpul licence has gone.  I'd also very much doubt that the clone stuff comes out of the same building as the PTS products, because that would mean PTS knew exactly who was (illegally) making the knock-offs which have, in the end, taken away a very large chunk of their business.

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It happens all the time in various retail sectors . Big company outsource production to small independant factory's for cheap production costs , factory then use original designs / pressings , blueprints to back door sell original parts at much cheaper prices to various retailers not in the company loop . Ralph Lauren and a few other clothing manufacturers have this problem nowadays since outsourcing production to foreign cheap labour factories .

So you buy it from a market stall or from an official shop . But it was made originally in the same factory whichever price you pay for it ..

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You'd be surprised where the clone stuff comes from -- the OEMs are usually the same, it's just the clone items are made without trades or were substandard for other contracts.

 

We are talking about China here, after all! 

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It is funny when sometimes the clone stuff is better made / quality than the official stuff , have seen many examples of this happening recently .

I suppose the manufacturers have to keep the premium product dream alive . But if they scrimp and outsource and use the cheap materials to remain competitive the cracks start to show through eventually .

Which brake pads would you rather buy for your car ? The original manufacturer branded ones with ,ford , BMW ,etc stamped on the box or the girling , brembo etc branded ones . Who actually make the brakes in the first place for most cars .

Just remember car manufacturers don't actually manufacturer these parts , they just put them in a new box and sell them to you at a premium price ..they trick you into thinking you are actually buying a premium product because you payed more for it ...

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I think that train of thought is just peoples way to justify buying the clones to make themselves feel better :P

 

 

The price being 70% lower usually is enough justification to me :P

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Hmmm... Yeah, I guess that's the problem... I'm not very into clones, but I think it's more due to my OCD and, forgive the arrogant expression, my sense of quality, that I go for the real stuff.

 

Have any of you considered everything surrounding the original product that the "higher" price tag covers?

 

Something which clones don't have to do.

 

The problem is that these clone supporters are like "oh well this and that (original) company got *fruitcage*ed over due to clones, who cares", but that is after the fact. The problem with clones is they wouldn't exist if there wasn't an origin for them, so the clone supporters never suffer much of a loss in the grand scheme of things... Which is why they exist I guess.

 

I understand the need and want for cheaper products for airsoft for example, and perhaps MAGPUL PTS aimed too high with their products and pricepoints, I dunno.

 

 

Also the comparison of car brakes is flawed. A fairer comparison would be original brakes vs. china clone brakes. I would not drive a car with those on it, that's for sure :P

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Ahh, the innovation vs immitation discussion. I agree, clones can not exist without something to copy. If cloning is allowed a strong foothold in any market, then innovation will instantly cease. Why bother to spend £millions(?) developing a product, just to have some company come along and copy you, produce it for less because they have no need to recoup development costs, and steal not only your product I.P. but also your customers.....

 

Ok, so, that said.....there is a place for clones, but under the right conditions. What are those conditions? Ok, let's take Systema. They've had, what 9, maybe 10 years of unchallenged market conditions. One could argue they've made the best of it as well. I don't begrudge them, they created a market sub sector and charged a premium for entry. However, by now they must have recouped the origina development costs, and now, it's all about profit. I don't know this for fact, but I can't imagine it would take a company much more than 5 years to break even (if so, they wouldn't be around for long!!). So assuming they've made back their money, it's time to break the monopoly. This is where clones can come in, and "encourage" the company to stop charging excessive prices for it's product, and to introduce honest competition.

 

I say this is where cloning comes in. It doesn't have to. Another company could come in and challenge Systema with an equally innovative product. This would also create a competitive product market. But to be honest, clones always hit home a lot harder than simply competing products, as a clone is a direct copy at a (usually) much reduced price.....

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The thing is nowadays some of the clone company's are putting money into development , quality , control, innovation etc and actually turning out Airsoft guns that are better than the original designs they originally copied . Take g&g as a prime example . They have grabbed a massive sector of the Airsoft market by giving the buyers exactly what they want .

They have good guns , spares backup , distributers and main agents in many country's nowadays .

All their guns have improved beyond recognition from the days they used to be a two bit clone company .

Company's like tm , systema , grabbed a market and then sat back on their laurels , or just don't really care for their customer base . Happy to sell products to you , but god forbid you need spares for it or aftercare .

This lack of interest , bad customer relation is what costs them business , not the actual products they design and sell .

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Not entirely true.

TM for example doesn't give a SH## about the rest of the world.

They also do not export their products. Private distributors do.

In Japan, getting TM spares is as easy as apple pie.

It's the private distributors who mostly do not want to supply spares.

the whole AEG gives them more margin and less work compared to spares.

After-market parts from third parties is another story. There they have room for sufficient margin.

Besides almost anyone buying a TM outside of Japan is bound to upgrade it with third party parts.

 

And then there is Systema.

It's available but scarce expensive and sometimes it laks complete quality.

The stories here are very strange, as to why they are so difficult to deal with especially when you now have other companies who build PTW's that work.

Some even believe in an conspiracy set up between Systema and Tackleberry.

A bit the same like the church and the king did long time ago. :P

 

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That's exactly my point they care very little about their customer base .

In any business you have to know who and where your demand for your goods is coming from , to know and ignore. Is bad management or pure ignorance/ can't be bothered . Maybe a while back they got away with this attitude , knot nowadays when newer company's are taking their customers away from them . Its the same with retailers over here , some are stuck hard in their ways and bury their head in the sand . Whilst the new ones are changing the industry with warrantys , aftercare , functions , and building strong customer relations by again , listening to what the customers want .

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You seem to miss the point.

TM only care about Japan. It's the private distributors job to do some thin about the rest of the world.

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I can accept the argument for clone companies that add something to the product, for sure.

 

However, MAGPUL or PTS clones are nothing but copies, they add nothing except a lower price point and I think that is pretty mweh to be honest...

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You seem to miss the point.

TM only care about Japan. It's the private distributors job to do some thin about the rest of the world.

So basicaly you are saying that tm as a company are not aware they have a customer base outside Japan ?

I find that hard to believe , I think its more of a case of , they don't care if there is a customer base outside of Japan . Which then reverts back to the points I made in my previous post .

 

I find a similar case with some of magpuls products . The pdr for example , where is the handgrip extension , torch etc , why are lugs snapping off them ,I thought they used premium material / plastics in its construction .

Why do springs fail in the g36 p mags and need replacing . Where is the company input for these issues . After all they convince you to buy into their premium products and then give no support when there are problems .

This is where clone company's grab business in large amounts , cheaper , sometimes better quality , customer support , and availability .

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Ahh, the innovation vs immitation discussion. I agree, clones can not exist without something to copy. If cloning is allowed a strong foothold in any market, then innovation will instantly cease. Why bother to spend £millions(?) developing a product, just to have some company come along and copy you, produce it for less because they have no need to recoup development costs, and steal not only your product I.P. but also your customers.....

 

Ok, so, that said.....there is a place for clones, but under the right conditions. What are those conditions? Ok, let's take Systema. They've had, what 9, maybe 10 years of unchallenged market conditions. One could argue they've made the best of it as well. I don't begrudge them, they created a market sub sector and charged a premium for entry. However, by now they must have recouped the origina development costs, and now, it's all about profit. I don't know this for fact, but I can't imagine it would take a company much more than 5 years to break even (if so, they wouldn't be around for long!!). So assuming they've made back their money, it's time to break the monopoly. This is where clones can come in, and "encourage" the company to stop charging excessive prices for it's product, and to introduce honest competition.

 

I say this is where cloning comes in. It doesn't have to. Another company could come in and challenge Systema with an equally innovative product. This would also create a competitive product market. But to be honest, clones always hit home a lot harder than simply competing products, as a clone is a direct copy at a (usually) much reduced price.....

 

Which is how it works in other industries where a product or innovation can be protected for a certain amount of time before the idea can be adopted by other manufacturers. Take Dyson hoovers, they arent the only floor cleaning machine with cyclone technology anymore but yet many choose to pay more for the Dyson than a cheaper brand. The difference being in hoovers nothing is a direct 1:1 copy, like some of the G&G rifles with parts based on the concept of the MOE handguards and stocks they are different if yet perform the same task.

 

The thing is nowadays some of the clone company's are putting money into development , quality , control, innovation etc and actually turning out Airsoft guns that are better than the original designs they originally copied . Take g&g as a prime example . They have grabbed a massive sector of the Airsoft market by giving the buyers exactly what they want .

They have good guns , spares backup , distributers and main agents in many country's nowadays .

All their guns have improved beyond recognition from the days they used to be a two bit clone company .

 

To me that describes when a 'clone' company evolves past 'cloning' as they offer their own version which adds something to the table other than a price point. Your G&G example is a good one as they did used to put out M4 after M4 which weren't too dissimilar to TM or CA offerings at the time. These days their product line is very very different.

 

TM on the other hand only deal direct within Japan, so in that regard they provide their customer base with the service they need (if your in Japan), technically your right as they dont care that there is a customer base outside of Japan, its like Magpul dont care they have a customer base outside of the US.

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