onizuka-gto Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 I've the opportunity to pick up one of these boomsticks second hand for a good price, could you lads help a brotha out and tell me if: A. Can this take GG without destroying itself in an Irish (moderate) climate and B. What are the major weak points/failings of the system? I've heard the nozzles tend to break and jam, barrel wobbles etc. A: Green Gas? Not without modification to the gas magazine. B: Wobble on the pump grip, not a pressing issue, but can be annoying and probably contribute to further problems if it isn't addressed. Nozzle failure, i've not experienced this myself, it could simply be a few bad lemons, but a pressing concern due to the limited replacement parts available right now. The complexity of the internal parts, if you intend to upgrade that goes beyond simply replacing the stock, it will require taking the internal out from the receiver, which will make it more likely for you to disturb and possibly lose parts or break stuff. So unless you are experienced in servicing your own stuff and/or enjoy/experienced taking apart Gearboxes (gah. bane of my existence!) then it will probably be the least of your concerns. one last problem i've encountered after a few games with it, if you don't pump the foregrip with enough force and return it back in equal measure, the gun will not fire. I think this is probably my own particular problem, as i'm far to used to a pistol-grip stock-less shotgun and by virtual of my own build, have a shorter reach, so i find it harder to pump completely and hold it comfortably with a full non-pistol-grip shotgun. One other concern is the rubber butt-stock cap, even using 134a recommended gas, the gas magazine made the rubber cap less then secure and i have lost it on more then one occasion, even within the same game. This again, might jsut be my gun but its a concern nevertheless. Personally, i think i might just just keep this version as a display or at least a target gun....just like my maruzen ejecting shotguns. I'm looking far more favourable to the breacher version, it's pistol gas magazine looks just if not more sturdy then the Maruzen pistol gas magazine which happily took Green gas natively and hopefully they would of iron out some of the minor problems in this version. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
arne71 Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Nebula are making an aluminum nozzle, but it`s rather expensive. They are also making a plastic version of it, not so expensive. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FTZ-WildeCard Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 The buttpad falling off was a nightmare for me. Even though I pinched the removal levers as recommended, all it takes during a game is it to snag slightly on anything and it'll come off. Resolved by putting on a buttstock cheek rest but far from ideal. Hope the sliding stock kit (AG or G&P) is sturdy, as this will hopefully eliminate the buttstock pad issues --- without introducing new ones (fingers crossed)! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BerserkDS Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Is your gas tank and expanding? That's the main cause of the butt plate falling off very easy. On a not so expanded tank, it doesn't fall off easily. On a side note, I don't store my tank with gas anymore. Been going on 4 months of hard use on a new tank, and no expansion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spam Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Yeah since I've replaced the pins on my shotgun with nuts and bolts I've never had an issue with the butt pad falling off. Simple fix to stop you losing it if it keeps happening to you though is to attach the buttpad to the stock with some bungee/paracord like so: 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Trap Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 (edited) Simple yet inspired idea, might do that on mine. Edited June 5, 2014 by Trap Quote Link to post Share on other sites
onizuka-gto Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 Yeah since I've replaced the pins on my shotgun with nuts and bolts I've never had an issue with the butt pad falling off. Simple fix to stop you losing it if it keeps happening to you though is to attach the buttpad to the stock with some bungee/paracord like so: hahaha! Mcguyver Unlocked! Best idea ever! dunno why i didn't think of this too! cheers mate. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jammie654 Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 Brilliant idea! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BioShocked Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 Too late for me I lost mine in the woods of a site. But great idea all the same Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AG1212 Posted June 8, 2014 Report Share Posted June 8, 2014 Thanks guys Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Zereck Posted June 8, 2014 Report Share Posted June 8, 2014 Angry gun installation/reviewish video. Im not sure about the high FPS, maybe it was also upgraded internally. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Habakure Posted June 8, 2014 Report Share Posted June 8, 2014 Yeah, the high fps made me hope it was more to do with the room temperature and green gas used. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wingmann Posted June 8, 2014 Report Share Posted June 8, 2014 Yeah, the high fps made me hope it was more to do with the room temperature and green gas used. They probably used a powerful gas. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Habakure Posted June 8, 2014 Report Share Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) They show a green gas can in the video, can you get different types of green gas (more powerful versions is what I mean)? Edited June 8, 2014 by Habakure Quote Link to post Share on other sites
onizuka-gto Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 They show a green gas can in the video, can you get different types of green gas (more powerful versions is what I mean)? Yeah. Red Gas, or to be more specific HCFC-22. It has a slightly higher density than propane a.k.a green gas, so in theory it can expand far more than Green Gas under the same temperature and capacity. However, the Red Gas is a more damaging greenhouse gas and might not be available for sale in your country and due to it's rarity, the regulation to the formula in these cans are less uniformed and may simply contain green gas mixes or other types as they are rarely properly labelled, so please do a little research before purchasing any of them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BerserkDS Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 Wtf? http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/eac-marui-m870-sga-tactical-magpul-custom-shotgun-gas-powered.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
onizuka-gto Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 Wtf? http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/eac-marui-m870-sga-tactical-magpul-custom-shotgun-gas-powered.html ...... That's ridiculous. If anyone buys this, i have to say you have more money then sense. :/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PureSilver Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 They show a green gas can in the video, can you get different types of green gas (more powerful versions is what I mean)? You can put any gas in a can and call it green gas, so in that sense, yes, you could have a 'more powerful' green gas. However, the underlying rule is that you cannot change chemistry just to suit airsoft. That doesn't change the fact that there is a lot of chemistry out there which could be used as airsoft propellant; what we get is the best compromise between vapour pressure (higher being better), boiling point (lower being better), expansion ratio (higher being better), availability (the greater the better), regulation (the less the better), and cost (the lower the better). Propane, with a relatively high vapour pressure (c.130psi at room temperature), low boiling point (c.-42°C), high expansion ratio (1:270), ready availability, minimal regulation and low cost, is a good compromise which is why it's so common. That said, airsoft being airsoft, we actually know very little about what's in most gas cans; it's really all marketing s***. For example, feast your eyes on the high-grade bulls*** on the back of the can used in the video: From the way RedWolf word it, you'd think they'd created the molecules themselves in a secret fusion facility hidden under Hong Kong, as part of a decades-long struggle to beat cooldown. However, slightly lower down the can, the ingredients are helpfully labelled... ...C3H8, which is of course propane. It goes without saying that neither propane nor silicone oil were "designed" or "engineered" by RedWolf, although the lies don't stop there: I note with interest that according to the top-secret RedWolf scientists, propane apparently has an expiry date. (Just to be explicit - unlike other 'consumer' hydrocarbons like petrol and diesel, propane does not expire.) Yeah. Red Gas, or to be more specific HCFC-22. [...] It has a slightly higher density than propane a.k.a green gas, so in theory it can expand far more than Green Gas under the same temperature and capacity. However, the Red Gas is a more damaging greenhouse gas and might not be available for sale in your country and due to it's rarity, the regulation to the formula in these cans are less uniformed and may simply contain green gas mixes or other types as they are rarely properly labelled, so please do a little research before purchasing any of them. Some of that is right and some of that is wrong. HCFC-22 (chlorodifluoromethane, a.k.a. R-22) was sold as an airsoft propellant as 'Red Gas', as a 'more powerful' (higher vapour pressure) alternative to the contemporary 'duster gas' (dichlorodifluoromethane, a.k.a. R-12, or 1,1,1,2-tetrafluoroethane, a.k.a. R-134a). R-22 has nearly double the vapour pressure of R-12 and more than double the vapour pressure of R-22 at room temperature. I don't see anywhere that says that R-22 has a higher 'density' than the others; it's the vapour pressure, expansion ratio and boiling points that are important, not density. As you note, all three are now either in the process of being, or are already, phased out and consequentially are unavailable in the developed world. What you can get inside Europe and North America are blends of propane, propene, butane and other 'fuel' gases with higher vapour pressures and/or lower boiling points. MAPP gas, sometimes known as 'yellow gas', is a good example of that. CO2 is probably the ultimate example of liquid-expansion airsoft propellant. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
onizuka-gto Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 (edited) I don't see anywhere that says that R-22 has a higher 'density' than the others; it's the vapour pressure, expansion ratio and boiling points that are important, not density. As you note, all three are now either in the process of being, or are already, phased out and consequentially are unavailable in the developed world. What you can get inside Europe and North America are blends of propane, propene, butane and other 'fuel' gases with higher vapour pressures and/or lower boiling points. MAPP gas, sometimes known as 'yellow gas', is a good example of that. CO2 is probably the ultimate example of liquid-expansion airsoft propellant. My apologies, from some quick research i did, i found out the density of HCFC-22 as having a gas density of 3.7182kg/m3 while propane was at a gas density of 1.8988kg/m3 .But whether it was applicable to the power difference between green gas and red gas, i was just going on a uneducated guess that it would expel more gas molecules under the same circumstances between these two. But as you mentioned, i did not consider expansion ratio or vapour pressure. Interesting to note, now that you pointed that out, hcfc-22 vapor pressure isn't all that different from propane at 853kPa to 908kPa for Red Gas, which is no where near CO2 is at 5.73MPa. Interesting stuff! Edited June 9, 2014 by onizuka-gto 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wingmann Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 Propylene (C3H6) will give you some serious boost I use it in our long near-zeroºC winters. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
amateurstuntman Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 These pistol grip conversions from G+P and Angry Gun are just begging to be turned into an external HPA rigged gun. If the hose isn't an issue to the player (and it isn't for me) then it really is the best way to power a primary gas gun for skirmishing. I will concede that for looks, wall hangers and (to a certain degree) backups it isn't ideal. I shouldn't think it'll be too long before someone does it, I have a real love affair with shotguns and like a true love affair I am always being let down by them. I have had every type of shotgun out there with the exception of the Marui and an externally rigged Marui is making noises in my brain right now. I can't wait to find out what this thing is though, (Page 133). http://www.calameo.com/read/002288163a8e541c3c8ee?authid=tEx2FyJSf5G1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PureSilver Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 I can't really see the point of HPA-rigging one of these guns. HPA tapping is for extreme precision (sniper rifles, notably), heavy gas use (DaytonaGuns, very-strongly-sprung GBBRs), or both. The TM M870 is a NBB, so it uses relatively little gas, and it's a fixed-hop-up shotgun, so it's never going to win awards for accuracy. It's not like these things have a problem with cool-down, and the gas tank is already large before you switch to the allegedly-double-the-volume Angry Gun. What I'm saying is, of all the guns to stick a (subjectively) ugly, unrealistic and unnecessary air hose on, the TM M870 is probably the last you'd do it to. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
blobface Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 I can actually sort of see the advantage of the HPA rig to this gun... since gas is essentially unlimited, you can spam 6 rounds mode for as long as you have shells, which are pretty cheap especially if you buy the China ones which mostly work... that'd make you a pretty effective player quite quickly... especially in CQB, not that you can't do it with tank in gun, but unlimited 6 round spam is definitely scary to come up against. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
amateurstuntman Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 I would always use the 6-round mode on this; it is more "shotgunny" - 5 shots before a reload is also more "shotgunny" than 10. I wouldn't use the term "spam" but in a target rich fast moving game you can certainly get through a lot of shots. I find that when using playing I will either get though part of a mag and die or blast through every round I have and have to get the rubber knife out, there doesn't seem to be any middle ground. I have seen videos of people only getting through 2 or 3 shells worth of shots, 20 or 30 shots on a tank of gas which doesn't seem like a lot to me - they may have problems with their 870s but that does seem weak. It allows you to continue using your expensive, lovely shotgun into the harsh winter months. It would be totally reversible, if you were clever about where you put the hose and how you fitted it you could switch back and fourth between HPA and green gas as you wished. And (and I am aware that this is going to sound completely mental) I think carrying a bottle of green gas for reloads onto the field in a pouch looks silly. I know it is in any objectively measured way actually less silly that having a dirty great hose poking out of the weapon but to me, it isn't. I don't know why. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob15 Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 What I'm saying is, of all the guns to stick a (subjectively) ugly, unrealistic and unnecessary air hose on, the TM M870 is probably the last you'd do it to. But at the same time it's probably the first you'd do it to, on the M870 the shells are completely unconnected to the gas tank so it's quite practical, on GIM GBBrs which would really benefit from external HPA/Co2 you'd have to be disconnecting the hose from the mag for each reload. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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